I was doing some Christmas shopping at a Best Buy in Orange Park Florida yesterday at around 1:00 in the afternoon. I didn't find any good deals so I left. I loaded my 6 month old daughter into the car and after placing her stroller into my trunk I noticed about 4 best buy employees canvassing the parking lot looking for something. Just then a blond female in a black blouse and white pants look my way draw a weapon from her hip, aim it at me and yell "You! Stop!" No badge was presented & no announcing who she was. A short stocky man with a beard wearing a polo shirt with a badge embroidered on it was following behind her about 5 yards. Only after I could see the badge clearly embroidered on his shirt did I know they were cops. When he got closer did I see his sidearm & holster. She said a laptop was just stolen by someone wearing a white T-shirt. She asked what I placed in my trunk so I opened the trunk exposing the stroller. After I was cleared by the two I said to her "You never showed me your badge or told me who you were" She then pulled up her blouse over her belt and said "Oh it's here" like it wasn't a big deal. She then shook my hand saying she was Detective... and introduced her partner... They were really nice after the fact. I didn't think much of the incident and drove off. I called my wife on the way home and told her what happened & she flew off the handle. She called Best Buy and the manager said an employee just found an empty laptop box and saw a guy wearing a white T-shirt leaving the area. He also said the two detectives were there shopping and enlisted their help. My wife then called the Jacksonville Sheriff's department to lodge a complaint. She was given the run-around had to call twice until someone gave her the number to internal affairs. The Seargent took her number but never called back. I wonder if I had a concealed weapons permit. Could I have leagally fired on her?
LEO pointed her gun at me & didn't identify herself.
- Thread starter rayman
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Since when did a mere shop lifting offense need an armed response?
Local Best Buy here screwed up a few weeks back.
Guy walked out of the store & set the alarms off... at the same time some guy goes running along the sideway.. security come running out & took off after the jogger...
Local Best Buy here screwed up a few weeks back.
Guy walked out of the store & set the alarms off... at the same time some guy goes running along the sideway.. security come running out & took off after the jogger...
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. You fire and you and your kid would have been killed in the return fire man. By the way if someone has the draw on you what the heck are you thinking about trying to beat them to the fire. Dont be stupid.
Ya she made a bad call with not IDing but again If you shoot a cop you will die from return fire or lethal injection.
Ya she made a bad call with not IDing but again If you shoot a cop you will die from return fire or lethal injection.
File a complaint and let it go. Your not going to get her into any serious trouble and if you say that you could have shot her, they will laugh you out of the courthouse. File a complaint if it helps you sleep better at night and leave it there.
jbauch357
Member
This story makes me cringe... that type of overreaction and unneeded use of force by a plain clothes officer is what would get a person to fire on them - and be labeled a "dangerous gun carrying citizen" or a "cop killer"
I likely woulnd't have drawn on her, but the neverending verbal lashing and expletives I'd be yelling at her would have probably landed me in jail...
I likely woulnd't have drawn on her, but the neverending verbal lashing and expletives I'd be yelling at her would have probably landed me in jail...
IMO, it sounded like there wasn't much for you to do. No way would you be able to outdraw a gun already pointed at you.
IF (and I mean IF) this was a situation where it was dark, you could get to cover super quick, the officer didn't identify herself, and you shot her in honest "I thought she was robbing me" self defense....... It would not be good. I don't think you would go to jail (depending on the state you live in?), but it wouldn't be good either.
IMO, she should be corrected. That type of behavior is going to get someone hurt.
I'm also not sure, there was reason to have her weapon drawn on you in the first place. For the LEOs on the site: Is this common procedure for the situation described?
IF (and I mean IF) this was a situation where it was dark, you could get to cover super quick, the officer didn't identify herself, and you shot her in honest "I thought she was robbing me" self defense....... It would not be good. I don't think you would go to jail (depending on the state you live in?), but it wouldn't be good either.
IMO, she should be corrected. That type of behavior is going to get someone hurt.
I'm also not sure, there was reason to have her weapon drawn on you in the first place. For the LEOs on the site: Is this common procedure for the situation described?
Deanimator
Member
I would have called 911 and demanded that a supervisor be brought to the scene. You were assaulted, and for no good reason. Even WERE you a shoplifter, no act of violence was committed, nor was any weapon displayed by you.
Despite the misconceptions of some cops, pointing loaded firearms at people is NOT a game. INNOCENT people get shot that way periodically, in particular by cops with no trigger discipline or common sense.
After the fact, I would file a formal complaint against the officer AND attend the next city council meeting prepared to name names and embarass people.
I would make this a VERY bad Christmas for that officer.
Despite the misconceptions of some cops, pointing loaded firearms at people is NOT a game. INNOCENT people get shot that way periodically, in particular by cops with no trigger discipline or common sense.
After the fact, I would file a formal complaint against the officer AND attend the next city council meeting prepared to name names and embarass people.
I would make this a VERY bad Christmas for that officer.
So, a couple of cops, directed by store emplyees standing next to them and believing you to possibly be the suspect of a crime in progress, contacted you, and in doing so one pointed a pistol at you while issuing commands. They then advanced to you, were it was obvious who they were. Is that more or less it? The complaint being that the gun-pointer should not have been pointing?
That's a situational judgement matter in the police world. I recommend phrasing and written complaint with that in mind. I also recommend mentioning the part where after clearing you as the suspect, they officers in question exchanged introductions and pleasantries with you.
In the grand scheme of things, nothing will come of your effort, by itself. If a pattern emerges over time and the effortsd of multiple others, something may.
The legal beagals calling for lawsuitsd are... misguided. The I'd have drawn and it would have been her fault, even more so. Anyone seriously believe something positive would come of either?
That's a situational judgement matter in the police world. I recommend phrasing and written complaint with that in mind. I also recommend mentioning the part where after clearing you as the suspect, they officers in question exchanged introductions and pleasantries with you.
In the grand scheme of things, nothing will come of your effort, by itself. If a pattern emerges over time and the effortsd of multiple others, something may.
The legal beagals calling for lawsuitsd are... misguided. The I'd have drawn and it would have been her fault, even more so. Anyone seriously believe something positive would come of either?
rudy99
Member
One thing to think about in this scenario is what you would have done if you had witnesses this happen. Depending on where you were standing it could have appeared as if you were witnessing a crime. Would you then draw your weapon? Kind of depends on how fast the events happen, but it is a fair question.
DarkSoldier
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Anyone who reads my posts knows how much I respect the police profession. I spent too much time behind the badge not to hold most police officers in extremely high regard. That said, here is my take on what the OP described.
The female cop was wrong to draw and point her gun at you. This is a (clearly improper) use of deadly force even though no shots were fired. From what was posted I can see absolutely no reason to present a weapon. She placed you and your child (and anyone behind you in the parking lot) in front of a loaded firearm with absolutely no justification. It wouldn't have mattered if you had the stolen laptop in your hand, this is still not (yet) a situation that warrants pulling a gun. The cops should be ready for the situation to escalate, but until it does, the guns should have stayed holstered. LEO ID should have been presented from the initial contact, and both should have announced that they were LEO before any action was taken.
Rayman, you handled yourself well. Even though you were unsure of who she was, you read the cues the way I would have: That if she was going to shoot, she would have just done so instead of ordering me to stop, and because of that I have time to further assess the situation and make my tactical decisions.
Whether you would have been justified in shooting in this case is something that can be argued forever. To me it boils down to shooting only those folks we absolutely have to shoot, not simply shooting everyone the law says we are justified to shoot. Strange as it sounds, there is a difference. It would take a large room to hold all the people I've been legally justified to shoot but ultimately didn't have to, throughout my career.
You would definitely have been within your rights to question her actions then and there. Unfortunately, since she wasn't handling herself in a professional manner to begin with, it would probably have been counter-productive to expect her to be receptive to criticism. An escalation of the situation at the scene would likely not have produced a positive outcome. Here, you handled yourself well again.
Your wife had the right idea. File a complaint. I love, respect and revere my brothers and sister in Blue, but I won't ever make excuses for reckless, stupid and unprofessional or criminal behavior. This runs counter to everything we swear our Oath to do. I've brought administrative charges against bad cops, fired bad cops. arrested bad cops, and investigated and prosecuted bad cops (and once even punched out a bad cop). I did those things out of DUTY. That's part of the "protect and serve".
My advice is to take TAB's advice and don't let them get away with their actions. Based on TABs post, I sense that he is no fan of the police, but I can't blame him when I read or hear about incidents like this. Good Citizens see the actions (good or bad) of very few police as they go about their daily lives and so they base their judgments on those limited observations. Unfortunately, we all get blamed when the bad ones act up. That's why it is so important to report this behavior to the Sheriff. The department can't address what it doesn't know about.
If this had happened to me I'd go in person to the highest ranking law enforcement officer with whom I can personally get an appointment (Sheriff, if possible in your case). Using the calm and cool manner that got (you) through the original incident, I'd outline what happened and every concern I have. I'd ask them to see a copy of the departmental use of force policy and ask them how the officers actions fit that model. I'd tell them that this is an official complaint and I expect action to be taken. I'd ask them to explain to me how the complaint will be investigated and tell them I expect to be made aware of the outcome of the investigation. If they blow you off, which I don't think they will, I think I'd call a lawyer.
Will it do any good? It would have on my department. Most Chiefs and Sheriffs don't want or need officers in the field conducting themselves as you've described. They know that they can be held liable for the actions of those under their command.
I thank God for every good cop out there. I pray that I was one of them. But, at the end of the day... we are here for the public, not the other way around.
I hope this works out for the best for all concerned.
Respectfully,
DarkSoldier
The female cop was wrong to draw and point her gun at you. This is a (clearly improper) use of deadly force even though no shots were fired. From what was posted I can see absolutely no reason to present a weapon. She placed you and your child (and anyone behind you in the parking lot) in front of a loaded firearm with absolutely no justification. It wouldn't have mattered if you had the stolen laptop in your hand, this is still not (yet) a situation that warrants pulling a gun. The cops should be ready for the situation to escalate, but until it does, the guns should have stayed holstered. LEO ID should have been presented from the initial contact, and both should have announced that they were LEO before any action was taken.
Rayman, you handled yourself well. Even though you were unsure of who she was, you read the cues the way I would have: That if she was going to shoot, she would have just done so instead of ordering me to stop, and because of that I have time to further assess the situation and make my tactical decisions.
Whether you would have been justified in shooting in this case is something that can be argued forever. To me it boils down to shooting only those folks we absolutely have to shoot, not simply shooting everyone the law says we are justified to shoot. Strange as it sounds, there is a difference. It would take a large room to hold all the people I've been legally justified to shoot but ultimately didn't have to, throughout my career.
You would definitely have been within your rights to question her actions then and there. Unfortunately, since she wasn't handling herself in a professional manner to begin with, it would probably have been counter-productive to expect her to be receptive to criticism. An escalation of the situation at the scene would likely not have produced a positive outcome. Here, you handled yourself well again.
Your wife had the right idea. File a complaint. I love, respect and revere my brothers and sister in Blue, but I won't ever make excuses for reckless, stupid and unprofessional or criminal behavior. This runs counter to everything we swear our Oath to do. I've brought administrative charges against bad cops, fired bad cops. arrested bad cops, and investigated and prosecuted bad cops (and once even punched out a bad cop). I did those things out of DUTY. That's part of the "protect and serve".
My advice is to take TAB's advice and don't let them get away with their actions. Based on TABs post, I sense that he is no fan of the police, but I can't blame him when I read or hear about incidents like this. Good Citizens see the actions (good or bad) of very few police as they go about their daily lives and so they base their judgments on those limited observations. Unfortunately, we all get blamed when the bad ones act up. That's why it is so important to report this behavior to the Sheriff. The department can't address what it doesn't know about.
If this had happened to me I'd go in person to the highest ranking law enforcement officer with whom I can personally get an appointment (Sheriff, if possible in your case). Using the calm and cool manner that got (you) through the original incident, I'd outline what happened and every concern I have. I'd ask them to see a copy of the departmental use of force policy and ask them how the officers actions fit that model. I'd tell them that this is an official complaint and I expect action to be taken. I'd ask them to explain to me how the complaint will be investigated and tell them I expect to be made aware of the outcome of the investigation. If they blow you off, which I don't think they will, I think I'd call a lawyer.
Will it do any good? It would have on my department. Most Chiefs and Sheriffs don't want or need officers in the field conducting themselves as you've described. They know that they can be held liable for the actions of those under their command.
I thank God for every good cop out there. I pray that I was one of them. But, at the end of the day... we are here for the public, not the other way around.
I hope this works out for the best for all concerned.
Respectfully,
DarkSoldier
Frog48
Member
For what its worth, a badge means virtually nothing. State peace officer license ID cards and LE agency issued ID cards are what really count. Nowadays they are merely carried because of tradition, and that it is what the public expects to see. But the badge, in and of itself, confers no legal authority.
If I were you, I would definitely have a problem with the fact that the woman did not initially identify herself as a police officer/deputy sheriff/etc. It should have been the first thing she did as she unholstered her weapon.
2TransAms
Member
If this was any other forum,I'd call BS. No way a cop would not have the training to know what to do in that situation,but people surprise me all the time.
Are there any security tapes that caught it?
I'd have thought very much of the incident, and bitched as high up the ladder as I could go. This woman's "Us vs Them,and we're better than you" mentality (and yes,if Rayman's account is accurate her actions said that) is what drives a wedge between,well,us and them. In my opinion,she should be given the stiffest penalty the department can give,if not outright fired.
Are there any security tapes that caught it?
shooter429
Member
Once they have the drop on you
It sucks, but once you are at the muzzle end, your options just became very limited-Do what they say or take your chances. I thinik you did what you could. Cop or no she had you. You did what you needed to to survive. Good job.
The first few times you are held at gunpoint it is unnerving, but you never get used to it
Shooter429
It sucks, but once you are at the muzzle end, your options just became very limited-Do what they say or take your chances. I thinik you did what you could. Cop or no she had you. You did what you needed to to survive. Good job.
The first few times you are held at gunpoint it is unnerving, but you never get used to it
Shooter429
Frog48
Member
Obviously, things vary from department to department, and state to state. But yes, in the vast majority of instances, a detective must first become a peace officer of some sort, then after a set amount of time in service (usually spent working patrol) they can apply or test to become a detective.
One notable exception to being "promoted from within" is the case of former federal agents. It quite common for local police departments and sheriff's offices to hire federal agents with no prior experience in local-level policing, and immediately promoting/assigning them to detective positions.
Whether or not "detective" is a higher rank depends on a department's rank structure and policy. In some places, detective is a rank superior to patrol officer. In other places, detective is merely a position unrelated to rank, much like any other specialty assignment such as warrant officer, narcotics officer, civil process officer, K9 officer, SWAT officer, etc.
Kevin108
Member
Odds are you reacted the way you did because you'd subconsciously process the embroidered badge on the guy behind her. Sounds better to me than a lot of the other suggestions of possible reactions. You already know this, and this made you fully observant of the fact that situational awareness is everything.
Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
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- 13,146
That's easy...unjustified Assault (an intentional tort), and possibly intentional infliction of emotional distress (not likely to make IIED stick however), and false imprisonment.
cassandrasdaddy
Member
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if its easy
That's easy..unjustified Assault (an intentional tort),
could you point to a couple where someone prevailed in their suit
That's easy..unjustified Assault (an intentional tort),
could you point to a couple where someone prevailed in their suit
Fred Fuller
Moderator Emeritus
Another incredible shrinking thread... what was it, 26 posts gone poof?
Folks, keep it on topic, realistic, level headed, leave out the words that would bother Art's grammaw- you know the drill. This is S&T on THR, not your little brother's internet.
lpl
Folks, keep it on topic, realistic, level headed, leave out the words that would bother Art's grammaw- you know the drill. This is S&T on THR, not your little brother's internet.
lpl
cassandrasdaddy
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- 4,206
seems rayman handled it well. shows the kinda thinking one should have while armed.
Several people are equating the pointing of a firearm at someone with the firing of a firearm at someone. That is not accurate. And... Even in locals where it may be accurate in so far as non-LEOs are concerned, that does not mean that the same holds true for LEOs.
Which is not to say the detective in question should have pointed her gun at the OP; or that she should not have.
Which is not to say the detective in question should have pointed her gun at the OP; or that she should not have.
Lone_Gunman
Member
Or how about instead, could you point to a couple where someone lost their suit?
I think a lawsuit is justified. I would site post traumatic stress disorder as my reason. The only way to get this stuff to stop is to sue police departments, as well as the individual officers, until they get the message. It will never stop unless we stand up against this kind of thing. "Oops, sorry, didn't mean to almost kill you" is not enough.
indoorsoccerfrea
Member
IMO, a lawsuit is a bit much. Getting her in trouble with the department, on the other hand, is certainly something I would do.
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