Quantcast

LEOs flying armed in past times

Discussion in 'Legal' started by peacebutready, May 25, 2020.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. peacebutready

    peacebutready Member

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2011
    Messages:
    970
    Location:
    South West
    I was reading the link below about LEOs flying while armed. There are regulations around that, needless to say. One of them being the LEO traveling armed must be doing so for a reason related to their duties as a LEO. An example of a LEO not be able to travel armed is for personal reasons like a vacation or to visit relatives.

    Was there a time in the past when LEOs could travel armed for other reasons like vacationing or visiting relatives? Could retired LEOs travel armed in the past as well? They can't now.

    https://www.tsa.gov/travel/law-enforcement
     
    rabid wombat likes this.
  2. GRIZ22

    GRIZ22 Member

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2006
    Messages:
    5,720
    AFAIK there was always the requirement for state and local officers to "show a need to be armed". That goes back to the 70's to my experience. A letter from the chief would suffice stating so would suffice in those days.

    Federal LEOs could always carry no matter what the reason.

    Retired LEOs have never been permitted to carry. Their firearm must travel in checked luggage.

    Going back to the 60s when there was no airport security measures many would just have their firearm in their carryon. I think it was supposed to ride in the cockpit.

    The skyjackings to Cuba in the late 60s was the reason for airport security measures.
     
    RETG and rabid wombat like this.
  3. lemaymiami

    lemaymiami Member

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2010
    Messages:
    2,570
    Location:
    south Florida
    In my era (1973 to 1995) cops never were allowed to be armed on board an airplane... unless transporting a prisoner (and even then I doubt the airline ever wanted that situation unless the officer was federal and they had no choice...). I came out of the service in 1971 right around the time that the sky marshal program was on-going but never looked into it since coming back from Vietnam I wanted to stay as far away from any government job as possible (at least initially...).

    Must admit though, I was never required to travel by air during a 22 year career in law enforcement so there might be special situations that I was never aware of. Things down here in south Florida during those years were exciting enough without being in the air as a cop...
     
    rabid wombat likes this.
  4. rabid wombat

    rabid wombat Member

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2014
    Messages:
    489
    Location:
    TX
    A tangent. My brother, now retired, was a Fed and carried on flights. There is a “secret handshake” (ok, really a process and paperwork) required to proceed through the TSA checkpoint. He finished the dance and kabuki, and prepared to pass, only to be stopped. He was not allowed to carry his pocket knife on board. He could surrender the knife, return it to his car, or check it. Though armed with a pistol, he was not allowed to have a knife.

    Yeppers, the TSA....
     
    Armybrat, DoubleMag, Mr. Zorg and 3 others like this.
  5. mjsdwash

    mjsdwash Member

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2011
    Messages:
    1,429
    there goes my love of Diehard
     
    LoonWulf and rabid wombat like this.
  6. PTSchram

    PTSchram Member

    Joined:
    May 23, 2020
    Messages:
    7
    Location:
    Churubusco, Indiana
    I was just discussing this Saturday with a friend of mine who is an undercover enforcement agent for an alphabet agency.

    I asked him and his response was "I am not permitted to be unarmed at any point I am outside my home, period, end of discussion".

    Because of his particular job, he claims to have more authority than an air marshall, but if he's on a plane with an air marshall, he knowns who the air marshall is, but the marshall does not know who he is-and-that if SHTF happens, he is to be CLEO on the plane.


    BUT, when he gets on an airplane at any airport but a MAJOR airport, the departure of the flight comes to a screeching halt until they can clear that he's telling the truth-TSA at work again.

    Of course he has to fly to Georgia, Virginia, or SOCAL at least quarterly.

    The job sounds more terrifying to me than could ever be worth the salary
     
  7. mdf9183

    mdf9183 Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2019
    Messages:
    5
    Location:
    Bastrop, Texas
    I can remember several times in the late 70s early 80s I flew from Texas to Nebraska to testify in a Capital Murder trial while carrying my duty pistol no one ever asked about whether I was armed or not. There were several plainclothes investigators that made the flights with me and no even mentioned it.
     
    rabid wombat likes this.
  8. RickD427

    RickD427 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2010
    Messages:
    152
    Location:
    King County
    My "BSD" started flashing red when I read this.

    I won't comment on the requirement to be armed because each agency has its own rules and it's been almost 40 years since I was in federal service. Requirements to carry at all times were common when I entered law enforcement service, but have been greatly relaxed over the years (and primarily driven by off-duty incidents).

    The "authority" of all (without exception) federal agents is defined in statute, and all are very narrowly defined. It's pretty much unquestioned that a Deputy United States Marshal has the broadest source of federal authority, both in terms of the federal statute, but also because their federal authority also includes the same powers as held by the Sheriff of the county in which they are operating (28 USC 564). It's the incorporation of the state and local powers that puts them over the top.

    There is no statutory "Food Chain" ranking of federal agents. Because the authority statutes are narrowly written, who's in charge is normally defined by the subject involved. If the incident is on a plane, the air marshal is gonna control.

    I'm gonna call "Pure BS" on the statement that the friend would know the identity of the air marshal on a flight, but the air marshal would not know his. It is a regulatory requirement that all (without exception) armed persons on a flight be known to each other. The idea that a secretly armed person would rise to have authority over an in-flight incident in place of the assigned air marshals flies in the face of every basic tenet of incident command.

    I've met a lot of folks who've made fraudulent claims about their status as some form of "Secret Squirrel." The moment that someone claims that their role is secret and so secret that they're exempt from the rules, it's pretty much a guarantee that they're spewing "BS." There is a need for secrecy in some occupations, and in some functions performed by government employees, but when that's the case, they're not going be discussing it with their neighbors.
     
    RETG, Speedo66, Riomouse911 and 4 others like this.
  9. RickD427

    RickD427 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2010
    Messages:
    152
    Location:
    King County
    It's not only the TSA. I've flown armed a couple of times and it's a pretty simple process so long as you jump through every hoop and in the right order.

    I once participated in a military exercise. Our unit was transported to an offshore island on an Air Force C-141 aircraft. Every unit member had either a M9 Pistol or a M-16 rifle. We also had a number of M-2 Machine Guns. All of the appropriate paperwork had been completed to carry the weapons on board the aircraft. We loaded the heavy equipment onto the aircraft on the tarmac. When it came time to personally board the aircraft, the crew chief directed us away from the boarding ramp, explaining that we all had to go back to the passenger terminal and pass through the metal detector before boarding. I thought that he was joking, but it turned out that he was serious.
     
    rabid wombat likes this.
  10. Old Dog

    Old Dog Member

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2004
    Messages:
    6,777
    Location:
    Back on Puget Sound
    Must not be a very good friend if he's comfortable telling you stories such as this. He's either a pathological liar, or just enjoying yanking your chain.
     
  11. mokin

    mokin Member

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2007
    Messages:
    1,600
    Location:
    Western Colorado
    Sounds like a story my ex brother in law told about flying while he was in the Army. He had to go through security with his plate carrier, M-16, M-9, and a whole lot of ammunition. That was not a problem. His SAK equipped with a corkscrew however, stopped the show. The country where he was traveling took a very dim view of alcohol.
     
    rabid wombat likes this.
  12. Double_J

    Double_J Member

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2012
    Messages:
    531
    Location:
    Melbourne Florida
    I have a friend who is a retired Deputy US Marshal who had to fly for work many times. He said it was always a pain during the paperwork at the airport. He also said TSA people are idiots, he had one point he was escorting a federal judge to Washington DC and the TSA officer said his authority overruled the judge and the Marshall Service. The judge told that officer that he better get his supervisor over or else he would spend the next week in lockup for being stupid. The supervisor did not realize just how much authority the judge and Marshall had and almost joined the jr. officer in holding. The airport police defused the situation quickly and the pair made their flight. The return trip was less eventful, though they did have an air marshall on the flight and the "secret handshake" was given by both parties. The pilot of that flight didn't like that he had to carry armed people on the the flight and almost ordered them off the plane. the judge talked the pilot out of that decision with some carefully chosen diplomacy.

    If someone says they have a "Secret permit/license" that overrides an Air Marshall/US Marshal service badge tell them they are full of it. Those 2 badges are the final say for carry onboarding an aircraft not controlled by the Military or Secret Service.
     
    rabid wombat likes this.
  13. rabid wombat

    rabid wombat Member

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2014
    Messages:
    489
    Location:
    TX
    in addition to my brother’s episode...I witnessed the following:

    A decorated Navy Commander in uniform was asked to remove all the metal on his person and walk through the metal detector...he indicated it would be easier to strip...they said he could go through “this time...”

    An elderly wheelchair bound woman was pushed to the side, so the TSA could “search” her assistance dog. This meant the basically scratched the dog all over...the dog seemed to like it, but a colossal waste of time and effort.

    The same occurred with a woman traveling with a SAR dog....

    Maybe the TSA just likes dogs....

    When my kid was young (ambulatory, but not much more...), we flew. The TSA managed to separate the kid from Mom (stroller, etc.)...inspect the kid and set her free on the secured side, while Mom and I were trapped on the unsecured side. As the kid was making her escape, I walked by security to snag her. It was going to get ugly, but I went back to the unsecured side and acted nice - though I had my kid.

    Yeppers, TSA....
     
  14. rabid wombat

    rabid wombat Member

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2014
    Messages:
    489
    Location:
    TX
    Not to hijack the thread further...not to completely beat on the TSA, I am the dumbest you will talk to. I was in line at security, and the screener start to empty my briefcase. Empty some, scan, empty some, scan...this occurred until the briefcase was “empty”.

    Security asked, “did I have anything in the briefcase that I should not have....?”

    “No, of course not...I am a seasoned traveller and know better....”

    They invited me to look at the x ray screen. The four dud 22 LR I had meant to drop responsibly off at the club showed VERY well on x ray. The primer strikes, zip lock bag labelled Dud, and the OBVIOUS look of shock and embarrassment on my face saved me. My punishment was a strong wag of the finger at me, and having to put all my crap back into the briefcase.

    Of course, the security was at de Gaulle in Paris...I was on my return trip. I had been through security twice in the US, but was not caught....

    Yeppers, TSA

    EDIT: added the Yeppers part....
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2020
  15. Frank Ettin

    Frank Ettin Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2006
    Messages:
    11,886
    Location:
    California - San Francisco Bay Area
    Wow! That went off the rails quickly.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice