LEOs, guns and mindset, part 2

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badgerw

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I was chatting with a friend last night who is a local cop. I'll call him "R".

For the first time in the three years we've known each other, the conversation rolled around to guns. "R" mentioned that he never carries a gun off duty. He said he'd, "rather be a good witness."

I told him I was a CHL carrier. He asked if I actually carried. I said I did. He asked if I was carrying now. I said, "Yes". "R" was astonished. I'd been standing six feet from him for an hour in his kitchen. My only cover garment was an untucked denim work shirt.

I offered to show him my carry guns. "R's" eyes got big when I cleared my G19 and handed it over. They bugged out when I cleared and handed over my 642 with the CT grips.

By the end of the evening, "R" wanted to know if we could shoot together. His annual qualification is coming up in March and he never shoots on his own.

I'll try to set something up with him soon.

Bill
 
For some reason, this scares me...

A cop that doesn't shoot on his own, except for qualifications...
How prevelent is this?
 
For some reason, this scares me...

A cop that doesn't shoot on his own, except for qualifications...
How prevelent is this?
Click to expand...

It should scare you as this is the norm:eek: They are like a lot of people and think that just the sight of the bat belt full of toys and presence in uniform is enough, and it usually is.

If the criminal set just realized how little continuation of training that the AVERAGE LEO engages in, you would see a spike in LEOs getting their butt kicked and gear stolen from them.
 
If the criminal set just realized how little continuation of training that the AVERAGE LEO engages in, you would see a spike in LEOs getting their butt kicked and gear stolen from them.
Click to expand...

They'd just pass more gun control laws on law abiding folks to keep that from happening anymore...
 
First not all cops are gun people. Then you have to take into account the local dept rules. I know of Dept's that don't allow "their" guns to be shot any where but at "their" range, with their rounds.

Also unlike TV, less than 5% of LEO's will actually use their firearms in the line of duty. Then there is the mind set or hypocrisy (you choice) of the public at large. If a LEO takes their job seriously, yo hear thing like "Barny Fife", and complaints about the "militarization of the police". BUT when a LEO treats their job like a 9 to 5 job, JUST LIKE YOU DO, then they are chastised, for not living the job 24/7.

Then God forbid they do get into an actual shooting, then you are guilty till proven innocent. They will go though great legal experience just to prove they were defending their live. I won't even go into the death threats and the civil ramifications.

All this from people that are either unqualified, to cowardly, or just can't be bothered to do the job themselves.

Bottom line, you reap what you sow.
 
And all they have to do is kick in ONE wrong door and shoot ONE 90 year old woman and the whole internet is in an uproar.
 
I was in the Military Police (National Guard) in the late 70's (After Navy). A vast majority of the personal where city, county, and state LEO's. I was shocked when I learned that so few where "gun people".

As has already been mentioned, it is very common even today for some (lots maybe) to use a gun as a tool. Shoot with it to qualify, but other than that, leave them alone.

I have the utmost respect for LEO. BUT, I feel they are there to take a report and try to catch the bad guy (girl) after the fact. It is up to me to protect my family and myself.
 
A cop that doesn't shoot on his own, except for qualifications...
How prevelent is this?
Click to expand...

From my experience the majority of LEOs are this way.
Given the tight budgets of departments, low pay of officers in general, and the fact that using the firearm is 1 percent of their jobs it shouldn't be surprising.

Stories like the OP tells are good opportunities to show LE that guns are not just tools of the bad guy.

I have the utmost respect for LEO. BUT, I feel they are there to take a report and try to catch the bad guy (girl) after the fact. It is up to me to protect my family and myself.
Click to expand...

The Supreme Court has said as much too so LE shouldn't take statements like that as an offense.
 
In other professions there is what is called "continuing education". Should a department pay their officers to keep their skills up? I'm not a cop, but in my line of work I have spent my own time and money for my own continuing education. I am better for it.

As for an officer not being willing to keep current with his/her firearms skills what other skills are they not practicing or keeping current?

Maybe we should ask those officers if they have a job or profession? I bet those who say it is their profession are the ones who are the better skilled and willing to do what is needed no matter what skill we are talking about. (Check with any job, there are some who have a job and others who treat it as there career/profession.) Not bashing cops as a whole just some who take the job for the check or for their ego.
 
It's an individual decision, which is unfortunate. We wish every cop is a gun nut.

Some cops are gun nuts and some aren't.

I work at a shooting range and there was a cadet that has been shooting there ever since she first stepped into the academy. She's full time now and her first week on the job, she had to pull out her Glock 7 times!!! She's also ranked #1 in her class in firearms.

But we do get a lot of LEO members.

I just think it's a personal decision. Remember, most of the kids that start out in the academy have only video game experience regarding firearms...so it's more of a gradual skill to learn the real thing rather than learning from Halo.
 
All this from people that are either unqualified, to cowardly, or just can't be bothered to do the job themselves.
Click to expand...

I think you will find on here that some are
1) More qualified with their weapon systems
2) Have more backbone/ will run to the fight
3) Want to do it the right way the first time and be done with rapist, child molesters by putting the hard back in "Hard Time". No early release, three squares a day, and weight rooms. Let them live in tents behind wire in the desert and live just as well as the military.
4) Wish that everyone would take their 2A rights seriously
5) Be their brothers keeper so we would not need police
 
Jerkface, You're right. It shouldn't happen, but it does. I've noticed it happens a lot more on the Internet than it ever does in real life. Might want to compare it to the amount of people that die form Doctors mistakes, you will see the percentage is minuscule.

Doc2m, I'm sure there are good people here. But there are police-phobias here also. The bottom line here is that citizens DON'T HAVE TO,
Run to the fire.
Be their brother keeper.
Qualify yearly.
Or use that backbone.

A couple of facts that are seldom discussed.

The laws, methods of operations, firearms and training, and hirings, are decisions made by the politicians that YOU THE PEOPLE have elected. Your problems start there.

Your police come from the society that they police. If you have a corrupt society, you will have a corrupt PD. No not all of them, but enough to give a Dept. a bad reputation.

I know I should ignore the police-phobias, but it does get real old after a while.
 
Wolfgang2000
If you have a corrupt society, you will have a corrupt PD.
Click to expand...

Never thought of it like that, but you're right on! That would explain places like NO, and the things that go (went) on after the hurricane. Or the sordid state of affairs in Mexico. The next logical step is to recognize that the police are but an extension of the governing body.......but this isn't L&P...........:banghead:
 
Just as I believe the CCWer should practice on a regular basis, I think that LEOs should practice on a regular basis. Gripes about departmental funding and the like, are just excuses. Most ranges I have been to offer pretty decent LEO discounts on everything from guns, to range time, to ammo.

Bottom line - If you are carrying a firearm, whether for personal or professional purposes, it is your RESPONSIBILITY to ensure that you are capable of actually using it if needs be. The reason being, there will almost always be bystanders around. Nobody needs to get shot on accident.

Merry Christmas!!!!
 
By the end of the evening, "R" wanted to know if we could shoot together. His annual qualification is coming up in March and he never shoots on his own.

I'll try to set something up with him soon.
Click to expand...
EXCELLENT!!! Have fun shooting. Learn from him about reading body language to see things that JDLR (like a CCW standing next to you). The LEO's I know are amazing with their street sense of spotting something immediately that "just doesn't look right".

I find it amazing that some pick out negatives, perceived or real, from the OP when all I saw was a chance to go shooting with a good and trusted friend. I bet not all Cops can field strip their radios either. Tho' there's probably one or two in a crowd who can and do. :D
 
I worked with those that shot a bunch and some who had to pluck dander out from their holster. I also worked with a few who were a bit over the edge when it came to guns. I was fortunate to always work with others who liked to shoot. I worked for departments that qualified once a year and was fortunate to be in charge and require it four times a year, with one course with duty ammo and once at night. I also encouraged officer participation in CCW classes as instructors and shooting at public events. Our department sponsored bowling pin shoots and always had a few mixed teams with officers and private citizens.
When it came to hiring I never looked to avid shooters alone. I looked first to a person who had their head screwed on right. Figured I could always teach them to shoot but could not teach them commen sense. If they qualified when the time came but never shot another round I didn't have a problem with that either.
 
First not all cops are gun people. Then you have to take into account the local dept rules. I know of Dept's that don't allow "their" guns to be shot any where but at "their" range, with their rounds.
Click to expand...

Well, if you are going to walk around in public with a gun on your hip, you damned well should be{at least to the extent that your likelyhood of hitting innocent bystanders is at a minimum.}
I know secutity officers who make FAR less $$$ than the lowest paid LEO and they still find time to shoot once a month.

Also unlike TV, less than 5% of LEO's will actually use their firearms in the line of duty. Then there is the mind set or hypocrisy (you choice) of the public at large. If a LEO takes their job seriously, yo hear thing like "Barny Fife", and complaints about the "militarization of the police". BUT when a LEO treats their job like a 9 to 5 job, JUST LIKE YOU DO, then they are chastised, for not living the job 24/7.
Click to expand...

I do not expect them to be jack booted half-wits but I do expect them to be as proficient with the tools of their trade as the guy I hire to fix my house is with his tools.
If your job requires you to carry a firearm, you need to be an expert with it .PERIOD.

Then God forbid they do get into an actual shooting, then you are guilty till proven innocent. They will go though great legal experience just to prove they were defending their live. I won't even go into the death threats and the civil ramifications.
Click to expand...

JUST LIKE A CITIZEN WOULD IN THE SAME SITUATION:cuss:
Nuff said on that.
All this from people that are either unqualified, to cowardly, or just can't be bothered to do the job themselves
Click to expand...
.

Or made better decisions with what they wanted out of life.{Or for whatever reason, chose a life of not wrestling with crackheads, and being a social worker}

Bottom line, you reap what you sow
Click to expand...

Yup
 
Sadly, it's the norm, at least around here.

Training budgets are thin; most officers (non-SRT) of one area agency only get one box of practice ammo a quarter, and either can't or won't buy much (if any) to practice with on their own. The quarterly qualification course of fire is what many regular shooters would consider easy, but some LEOs still struggle. (They shoot their qual at an indoor range I use, so I've seen them en masse a few times. Very few faces are familiar as range regulars.)

I've taken independent classes along with the sheriff dept.'s chief instructor. He has to pay for classes out of his own pocket, to gain skills to pass along to his LEOs. He teaches monthly CCW classes largely for the funds to support his own training. I've also taken classes with the head trainer for an area city dept.--has to pay for his own training as well, but he's single and loves to shoot anyway.

I guess it's an improvement for them over the way things used to be around here: a friend who was a deputy in the mid-80's tells me that they had to buy their own "everything"....gun, ammo, bat-belt, stick...everything, out of a barely livable wage. Now their gear (including BA) is issued instead of prescribed. Still, it's kinda sad.

Not quite as sad, but sad nonetheless: the fact that the general public equates "cop" with "firearms expert". Some are, but I daresay most aren't...at least around here.
 
Not quite as sad, but sad nonetheless: the fact that the general public equates "cop" with "firearms expert". Some are, but I daresay most aren't...at least around here.
Click to expand...

I never said I equated LEO with firearms expert. what I said is:
If your job requires you to carry a firearm, you need to be an expert with it .PERIOD.
Click to expand...

I stand by it.
 
I said what I had to say. Some people read and understood. Some didn't. I'll not argue with a police-aphobic. Simply because when a bucket is full, you will never be able to put another drop in it. No matter how hard you try.


I hope everybody has a Merry Christmas, and God Bless. :D:D
 
LEO are people, just like all others in many respects. Many are in it only for the paycheck and will do only what is required to get and keep the job.
Others look at it as a career or profession and will undertake training and practice beyond what is required to keep the job.

This practice applies not only to the use of firearms but the knowledge of the law, tactics, social interactions and all other aspects of their jobs.

An officer who is too lazy or ambivalent to do more than the minimum on the range is likely to be too lazey to have even a vague understanding of the legal system beyond that which he is shown by his trainers.

An officer that will take the time to be extra proficient on the range at the expense of their own time and money is more likely to make the effort to be
more than minimally proficient in other areas.

Just like janitors, nurses and any other job. Some will try hard, others will just try to get by.
 
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