Encounter with LEO's while carrying concealed..

[Billmanweh]

With all the police shootings nowadays any encounter with police where you aren't shot is a lucky day

sorry, but that's incredibly prejudiced against law enforcement

 

[Edward429451]

So what if it is? Is it against the law to not like direction the law enforcement is taking in this country? Do I have to like it?

Should I report for my lethal injection because I have independant opinions?

 

[4 eyed six shooter]

I would just to add to the above. Edward, most police officers are not the storm troopers that you make them out to be. There are exceptions, and I for one do not agree with some of the policys and things that are done in law enforcement. As to staying inside of your vehicle when directed to do so by an officer, short of possibly shooting at me from inside of a car, I have never been attacked by someone who has stayed in their car during a traffic stop.( Trying to get someone who you are taking into custody out of a car is a different story.) I have been attacked or attempts have been made to attack me more times than I have fingers and toes to count by people who have exited their car on a routine traffic stop. A person who exits their vehicle and does not comply with a officers orders will always be viewed as a threat. It is not that the officer is trying to be a hard or push you around and violate any of your rights. It is a matter of officer safety. In the area I worked in, on a hot summer night you could expect to go to the ground with 2 to 4 people every night. Not because I was a hard ??? cop, because they were twisted out of their minds on drugs or booze. As a police officer there is no such thing as second place, you always have to win. You cannot afford to be injured or killed. You want to go home to your wife and kids every night. You may not have had any intentions of being a threat to the officer, but your actions were viewed as a threat from the prior experience of the officer. Most officers are good people just trying to do their job the best that thy can. There are some bad apples as there is in any profession, but they are a very small minority. It's kind of like being in a war. A person can tell you what it was like to be in fire fights, just barely escaping with their life. But unless you have been there, there is no way that you can understand what it was truely like.
Respecting an officer by doing what he or she says( with a very few exceptions) will earn you respect and professional treatment from the officer. Police officers do not always agree with laws, but we are charged with enforcing them. Sometimes officers can decide to arrest or not arrest, other times they must make the arrest. Many people do not like being told what to do, just try to realize that if an officer tells you to do or not do something, there is most likely a very good reason behind the request.
I am retired now, and glad to be retired. Police officers have to walk a very thin line. You are damned if you do and damned if you don't. My hat is off to all officers who are in the profession. It seems to only get tougher as time goes along.
My best to all, John K

 

[Pendragon]

Man your prioritys are all screwed up! You need to spend that cash on guns, not Hummers!!

You are a little crazy - but you know it.

I think you are knowingly engaging in a risky behavior because you want to uphold your rights.

I applaud you.

I am not certain I would do what you did, but I understand it.


I used to get pulled over almost weekly when I was around 18-20. Never got a ticket - I was told once I had a car similar to a local hooligan.

I learned real fast that pulling over quickly and safely, turning on the light, cutting the engine and hands at 10 and 2 gets you a lot better attitude from the local contabulary.

They mostly just looked to see if I was on a substance or obviously a BG - then let me go.

It may sound sucky, but I actually found it very good practice for dealing with LEOs - I later talked myself out of a ticket when I was doing over 120mph (he did not clock me but was doing his darndest to get a confession ) I also talked my way out of a left turn from the middle lane on a Friday night in downtown Sacramento.

Mostly I just try to talk to the cop like he is a regular guy and try to get him to see me as a likeable regular guy in no way deserving of his further attention - so far so good.

Oh - the last ticket I got was a speeding ticket - but honestly, I was super glad I did not get arrested for reckless driving or racing - danged American V8 always talking to me - telling me to go too fast

 

[Billmanweh]

So what if it is? Is it against the law to not like direction the law enforcement is taking in this country? Do I have to like it?

I wrote earlier that your prejudice against law enforcement was possibly clouding your judgment on how to respond to a simple traffic stop. You said that it wasn't prejudice at all.

But this has nothing to do with opinions. It's just safer for you and the officer if you stay in your car. But you already knew that. It sounds like you want to push it until you get the crapped kicked out of you. I hope that works out for you...

 

[Edward429451]

Appreciate the insight, 4 eyed six shooter. Responses like yours can actually help. What a joy to hear a response that takes no offense but addresses the issue in such a way that understanding is encouraged instead of stonewalled with offense.

 

[uglymofo]

Edward,

In my opinion and experience, (which is only from all the ride-alongs I've been on) your conduct and 'Bill of Rights' attitude got you in 'trouble' with that woman officer. Male or female, the thing most cops dislike most is losing control of a situation. That someone will "passively be aggressive" by disobeying an instruction and then continue to "walk, talk and explain" while not following instructions puts them on an edge of adrenalin they just don't like. It's not the rush of excitement and power that they signed up for, it's the adrenalin of fear. Your rights, from their prospective in those kind of circumstances, rank second to their sense of personal safety and security. It's a fine line, and sometimes when the things escalate, even if it's just in their minds, the snowball builds momentum on its' own and the situation feeds itself from both parties' conduct.

I've been a ride-along on a couple felony stops; we knew going in that this was for my friend (the cop) an unlucky circumstance (in a bureaucratic sense) to have a John Q. Citizen along on the stop; we also both knew he was lucky I was there because (especially the second time) I'd already proven my coolheadedness and worth in a very hostile situation, and the situation dicated he was better off with a "partner". None of that changes the fact that the adrenalin was just as high for him had he been alone; I was just as much an "unknown" liability. Later, he said exactly what I'm saying to you; up to a point, the unknown is exciting; past that, one has to deal with the 'felony-dangerous' unknown, and sometimes, by oneself.

I've also been stopped once carrying CCW illegally. To make the story short, I got caught getting out of my car and my gun printed. A cop pulled into the parking space behind me and demanded I stand up, move across the sidewalk and 'assume the position' without turning around. I'd already heard the shotgun rack up. I kept cool; I talked my way out of it and he took my gun. When NICS came back clean, HE needed a smoke, so we had one. I then went to the bank (the building I was leaning on ) and came back out when I was through. He gave me my gun back less the mag and bullets, and said "go straight home". Evaluating the encounter, I think he was very professional in his 'stop' conduct. Obviously I didn't give him any lip with the 12ga on me. But his remarks were very much the same as my friend's; he was on that edge of the rush, having gotten the drop on me from behind was little comfort, he still had the entire location and scenario to absorb and define (it was lunchtime and we were right in the middle of downtown). It's damn little solace that "things are working out" as they unfold, when that much is an unknown.

 

[Wildalaska]

Cop pulls me over, its yes sir, no sir, whatever you like sir.

Ya want my gun, here it is sir. You dont know who I am and I want to make sure that this encounter is safe and healthy for the both of us.

But, treat me with anyhting less than utter respect and you will be doing depositions and paperwork for the next 5 years.

WildsqueekywheelAlaska

 

[Erik]

Edward,
While it is the norm in some locals for drivers to exit the vehicle on a traffic stop Colorado is not one of them. It is a dangerous practice, all things considered, which is why most locals frown on the practice. As for disobeying lawful orders for the sake of proving some point, believe me, any point that you're trying to make will be lost in the realities of the moment. Realities which one way or the other will lead to a loss on your part.

Just something to think about...

 

[Erik]

"Cop pulls me over, its yes sir, no sir, whatever you like sir."

Hell I'm IN law enforcement and this typifies my behavior.

 

[Wildalaska]

Hell I'm IN law enforcement and this typifies my behavior

Well they always say an armed society is a polite society.

WildwhoistheyanywayAlaska

 

[Ryder]

As I said before we must inform here but that is only if we are carrying a firearm. There is no obligation to report that we are permit holders when we are not carrying a gun. Even if we were carrying and forgot to inform it is only a misdemeanor. This failure to notify has to occurr two or maybe even three times before the permit can be suspended.

It differs from state to state but around these parts I doubt it would be an acceptable reaction for the officer to act as though his life in danger from such a thing.

 

[twoblink]

Let me tell ya about TX..

Buddy and I, in his pickup, got pulled over for something, can't remember what.. asked if we had guns in the truck (This _IS_ TX right??) Of course. Buddy had a rifle in the back.. Officer ended up saying he'd have to check it out, and proceeded to what we assumed was to check if the gun was stolen, but instead, he started playing with it. Then asked my buddy "How does it shoot? My brother's got one, and it's got a small rattle we can't find.. How's the accuracy?" etc... we were pulled over for about 30 minutes while he questioned my friend in length about the gun performance.. And then decided he might have to get one for himself.. And didn't even tell us the reason we got pulled over..

That is SOOOO TX..

 

[Edward429451]

It's a fine line, and sometimes when the things escalate, even if it's just in their minds, the snowball builds momentum on its' own and the situation feeds itself from both parties' conduct.

Maybe I've just had the bad luck of running into more of the storm trooper types than nice guys. My experiance with them has been that the more polite and cooperative I am the more tickets and charges I get out of it.

I'm clean cut, polite and softspoken. Maybe they see me as an easy mark? No way would I get aggressive with a cop on the street. To attempt to politely invoke ones rights should not be viewed as aggression. I don't believe I should have to immediately waive all my rights just cuz a uniform pulls in behind me. Where's the logic in that? So I wont get shot? Thats intimidation and I'm one of the stupid ones who doesn't respond well to subtle threats. That sets my adreneline pumping. Fight or flight.

Blame my elementery school history teacher who taught me that I am above the law. This is not how America is supposed to be run. So where does that leave us? Citizen attempts to invoke rights so take the next reasonable step and shoot him to be on the safe side. Good one. Maybe I should move to TX!

Blind respect for the law is whats wrong with this country. You have to be able to question authority or there is nothing left but genocide & the police state.

 

[TheOtherOne]

If I was a police officer, I would make good use of the taser. 10,000 volts to ensure my safety on every traffic stop. I would turn the dash cam off and trade tickets for a good tasering. Punk kids, middle aged men, little old ladies. I would need one that shoots prongs for those that get out of their car. Nobody gets special treatment. I would make a good officer of the peace.

 

[Edward429451]

Punk kids, middle aged men, little old ladies

So basically, everybody?

I hear the higher voltage ones are better than expresso. I could use a jolt right now!

 

[Billmanweh]

I would hardly look around and say that what is wrong with this country is too much respect for the law, blind or otherwise.

Just a thought, but you MIGHT have some issues with authority/control.

LOL

 

[Gordon Fink]

Please explain how it does not.

Eyewitness testimony is notoriously unreliable. An officer seeing and even conversing with an alleged driver is really little more reliable (and vastly less safe) than merely issuing a citation by mail to the registered owner of the vehicle in question. Furthermore, the officer must also show up for any court appearances to testify to the identity of the alleged driver.

With mailed citations, most violators would just pay the fines. Those who care about their rights will still show up at court and win their cases at about the same rates they do now. Police officers, meanwhile, wouldn’t be getting killed by drug dealers with burned out taillights.

[An officer] can verify who the driver is and therefore issue a citation the proper person. If said person does not and cannot provide satisfactory proof of identification (satisfactory to the peace officer making the stop, not YOUR satisfaction) you will go to jail.

This confirms my suspicion that minor traffic stops are really just unconstitutional fishing expeditions for other “crimes.†Why risk officers’ lives over the chance of finding some small amount of an “illegal†substance?

Now, for serious traffic violations (i.e., reckless/intoxicated driving) or suspect vehicles, the police should make stops and arrests where appropriate. Anything else risks both officer and driver safety unnecessarily and erodes our remaining freedom.

~G. Fink

 

[Erik]

LEOs initiating contact are not eye witnesses in the sense you seem to be illuding to.

There is quite a bit of difference in the reliabilty of an officer who has initiated contact with a given individual occupying a given vehicle, and a passer-by who merely glances over in mild curiosity at seeing a traffic stop.

To begin with, identification is positively made, checks are run, the individual is cleared or not as appropriate, all of which results in date/time records, which are admissible in court along with the officer's testimony. That covers all but the most unusual cases of identity theft, for the most part.

Cannot produce identification to the satisfaction of the officer? Then at the least your driving without a license. At best your attempting to hide the fact you have multiple felony warrants. Regardless of the reason, the contact has evolved to something more than a simple traffic stop. (Not to suggest anything other than the fact that it is no longer as simple as contacting, IDing, and either citing or warning the driver.) At least in the short term.

As for why traffic stops are initiated, it has everything to do with the fact that it is well documented that amount of traffic enforcment directly impacts the number of deaths and injury accidents on our roads and highways. It falls neatly under the guise of protecting and serving, as well as law enforcement.

 

[Edward429451]

Just a thought, but you MIGHT have some issues with authority/control.

Ya' think? Seriously though, if most of them didn't treat me like guilty until proven innocent, I might not have.

As far as the mailed citation thing goes, that would be a violation of due process. I beat a few of those type citations up in Ft. Collins when I lived there.

 

[DF357]

Edward....you stated:

"I beat a few of those type citations up in Ft. Collins when I lived there"

That statement with others through out the thread indicated you've had MANY run ins with LEOs. Just how many times have you been stopped and/or cited?

 

[Gordon Fink]

There is quite a bit of difference in the reliabilty of an officer who has initiated contact with a given individual occupying a given vehicle, and a passer-by who merely glances over in mild curiosity at seeing a traffic stop.

And in court, the officer will be able to clearly remember the face of the driver he stopped at 2:00 A.M. on a dark road three months ago? Of course, because the police are more reliable than common citizens.

Cannot produce identification to the satisfaction of the officer? Then at the least your driving without a license. At best your attempting to hide the fact you have multiple felony warrants. Regardless of the reason, the contact has evolved to something more than a simple traffic stop.…

Ah, yes … We’re back to the “What if he really has more than just a burned-out taillight!†argument. What else can we get this citizen for?

As for why traffic stops are initiated, it has everything to do with the fact that it is well documented that amount of traffic enforcment directly impacts the number of deaths and injury accidents on our roads and highways.…

Mailed citations would accomplish the same thing, if minor violations were actually related to traffic accidents. No one disputes the effectiveness of parking citations.…

Of course, this discussion will be moot once the mandatory checkpoints go up.

~G. Fink

 

[Edward429451]

That statement with others through out the thread indicated you've had MANY run ins with LEOs. Just how many times have you been stopped and/or cited?

Probably 25 times in the last 10 years or so. Mostly speed infractions. Sometimes I can go a year or two without getting stopped and other times it seems like I'm on a binge. At one point I got like 6 tickets in one year and got down to only one point left on my license. I've been learning to slow down but sometimes that speedometer sneaks up on me. I'm back down to normal insurance rates again at this point. My last ticket was for my front tires sticking over the line at a light, earlier this year.

I had a sheriff behind me for a couple miles just today and I very consciously kept it at 44 in the 45 (felt like I was crawling!) but he eventually drove around me and waved as he passed. Good man that one. (Anyone that don't pull me over is a good guy!!)

 

[Edward429451]

Just a thought, but you MIGHT have some issues with authority/control.

I've been mulling this over while out driving around working and this strikes me as very odd. You say it like it is a bad thing to have a problem with authority and control...

I'm obviously taking this beyond the scope of this thread...Here we are, all pro RKBA, willing to fight for our rights (at some point at least), and yet, the general consensus seems to be to cooperate. This is America and all that it implies. Why shouldn't we have a problem with control and authority? Are we "We the People" or are we not? Are we sovereign?

What means this martial array of heavily armed police if not to force us into submission? The police do not like to lose control of a situation someone said. Understandable. I would want to make it home to the wife & kids also.

Is my thinking incorrect, or are we (some of you) losing sight of the critical ideals that our great country was founded on? If I am having a poor case of judgement about being hard nosed about my rights, then wherein did my rights go? At what point did we cease to be sovereign and give ourselves over to the state and federal constabulary? I cannot help but think that the mere threat of force by the state is enough to make most people stand down and surrender to the state. Patrick Henry said that fear is the passion of slaves. If I do not demand and be willing to fight for my rights, am I a slave? If not, why not?

If all it takes is the threat of force to get you to surrender, can I threaten you and take what I will from you? Oh, you'd plant me in the dirt you say? OK, reasonable response to that one. Now then, how's the state's threat differ from mine. Why would you be willing to fight me but not the state?

I'm confused. There seems to be paradoxial views on this "freedom forum".
Hmmm.

 

[CZ-100]

I don't think we're required to in Florida either, but I always do anyway. I have had lots of cops react differently. One of which took my guns, left them loaded, and when he drove away left them on the bedrail of my truck for me to retrieve in a Walmart parking lot. That got some strange looks.

We are not required to, but in the paperwork that came with the application for an CWL it stated that if the officer ran your Lic. it would tell him you had one.