LEO's: How did you department decide on the firearm and ammunition you carry?

[Cop Bob]

When I joined, it was any revolver, caliber 38 or larger for cadets. We were given a presentation and recommendations by the training staff, and two letters, one for a duty weapon, and one for an off-duty weapon.. When I came through, the pistols that were "Pushed" were the M-19, the M-66, the M-586 and the M-686 Smiths for Duty Weapons, and J and K frames for off duty.. Once you had a year on the street, or got off probation, you could switch to a Semi-Auto. The most popular at the time was the 1911's...

Later, it was decided that we would start training cadets with Semi-Auto's and the Beretta 96 was one of the guns pushed, along with Sigs, and a list of about 4 others that, memory escapes me on... All were 40's..

Then and now, all officer were responsible for the selection and purchase of their own weapons, from an approved list.. The caliber and ammo restrictions were 38 Special or larger, 9mm acceptable, off duty, same, however .380's were allowed for off duty and plainclothes assignments.. Officers were not permitted to carry calibers smaller than 9mm for a primary weapon, however some put .32's and sme 25's on thier gun carry cards as back up weapons, as boot, or pocket pistols..

Ammunition was also the responsibility of the individual officer, recommendations were made. All of it hollow points. Factory ammunition was recommended, FMJ was never recommended. In the early days, hand loads were permitted as well.. Now it is frowned upon..

Over the years I have seen our guys carry everything from Detective Specials, to 44 Wildeys... Now, Sigs, Glocks, Beretta's, and Springfields, as well as a smattering of 1911's are the most common..

 

[LeonCarr]

Personally owned firearms, has to be .38 or larger in revolvers, 9mm or larger in autos. No "junk" guns. I have watched our firearms instructor shoot our qualification course with a 6 inch S&W Model 629 .44 Magnum .

 

[Rexster]

What does IIRC stand for? Or YMMV?

I'm frequently tickled by the tendency to us initials; OP, POS, IWB, DOA, DRT, PDQ, etc. rather than just spell it out. Sometimes it just comes across as OMG, or LOL and somtimes just ROTFL. Don't assume everyone knows the secret handshake.

IIRC = if I recall correctly.

YMMV is an o-l-d one, pre-dating the Internet! It means "your mileage may vary," and derives from a disclaimer added to vehicle ads.

Why not type it all? CTS is not fun. (CTS = Carpal Tunnel Syndrome)

 

[Double Naught Spy]

What does IIRC stand for? Or YMMV?

I'm frequently tickled by the tendency to us initials; OP, POS, IWB, DOA, DRT, PDQ, etc. rather than just spell it out. Sometimes it just comes across as OMG, or LOL and somtimes just ROTFL. Don't assume everyone knows the secret handshake.

What secret? Sorry, I didn't know your Google was broken. Let me Google that for you...
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=IIRC+acronym
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=YMMV+acronym

 

[armoredman]

If I remember Correctly
Your Mileage May Vary.

 

[Prosser]

Leoncarr:
It's too bad that using a .44 Magnum doesn't happen more often. Seems to me Skelton and Keith thought the .44 or .41 were excellent choices.

 

[MikeNice]

What does IIRC stand for? Or YMMV?

I'm frequently tickled by the tendency to us initials; OP, POS, IWB, DOA, DRT, PDQ, etc. rather than just spell it out. Sometimes it just comes across as OMG, or LOL and somtimes just ROTFL. Don't assume everyone knows the secret handshake.

You should read the thread A THR Primer on Courtesy and Basic Abreviations. It is right at the top of general discussion.

There is some pretty good information in there that clears up a lot of issues. I know it helped me a lot when I started here.

 

[Bobson]

Edit: I should probably read page two before addressing a question on page one. And evidently, so should a few others.

What does BC stand for, when referring to bullets? Seems to be on a lot of ballistic charts. Bullet casing?

 

[orionengnr]

i have herad (sic) form (sic) a local gunsmith that the two citys (sic) by me one usees (sic) kimber and the other has sigs __________________
it's only money

Hmmmm...obviously money doesn't buy language (or typing) skills...

 

[Prosser]

Not to try and get my thread on track, but this isn't about abbreviations. Start your own thread if you want to learn how to google, and learn what is common knowledge in most forums.

I don't really care if it's first draft information. I don't proof my writing like it's a law review article in this forum, nor do i expect others to do the same.

The thread is about how the decisions are made to determine what firearms and ammunition are carried by leo or government agencies.

I for one would like to know why 10mm and .45 super aren't a bit more popular, and why we continue to chase the .45 colt's 150 year old ballistics.

If leo is going to use cheap rounds, why aren't they using guns that allow multiple hits, like a selector switch on a m-16?

 

[Plan2Live]

Actually, my prefered search engine is Yahoo, but thanks for the suggestion to search elsewhere other than getting clarification from a relevent location. Perhaps we can suggest everyone perform an internet search before asking questions here. TTFN

 

[MikeNice]

I for one would like to know why 10mm and .45 super aren't a bit more popular,

The size of the round and the recoil has kept 10mm out of contention. A lot of smaller stuatured people have problems with the grip size because of the longer round. The recoil was also a concern. Some officers just never could master it. Others it took a long while. The amount of time and money spent on training someone to become effective with a 10mm would be too costly.

If leo is going to use cheap rounds, why aren't they using guns that allow multiple hits, like a selector switch on a m-16?

I don't get your meaning. 180gr or 124gr+P Federal HST rounds are not cheap. They are less powerfull than an M-16 but they are much easier to carry and use at social distances.

Depending on who's numbers you read. only one in four bullets fired in a LEO shooting hit the intended person. Switching to select fire or auto isn't going to help that. Automatic fire is usually used for suppression. It is rarely used to engage with accuracy in mind. If anything it would make problems worse.

 

[LeonCarr]

Mr. Prosser,

When LEOs carried the N-Frame Smiths (.357, .41, .44, .45LC), notice that you never heard anything about "Stopping Power Issues".



Just my .02,
LeonCarr

 

[scaatylobo]

Bottom line was THE bottom line.

The 'bean counters' were the ones that made the final decision.

And that means lowest bidder.

So we got stuck with a badly made and now discontinued pistol.

That was in the past,and now we have a better option,but still its the bean counters that make the call - too bad.

 

[highlander 5]

That's because in those days LEOs had only 6 shots and they learned to make them count.
Not fill the air with lead and hope for the best.

 

[thedrewcifur]

i am about to sign up to be a reserve westerville police officer and they carry HK USP in 9x19, .40 S&W, or .45ACP. since they are providing the ammo i'll go with .45.

 

[slicksleeve]

For my department, it is the Glock 22. It replaced the Smith and Wesson 5906, which replaced some model of Smith and Wesson revolver. All this came about before my time though. I recall a Major telling us at the academy that he was on selection team, and he preferred the Sig, as it was in his opinion "A much better weapon than the Glock, but sometimes we don't get what we want."

 

[whalerman]

Liability and cost. They chose a weapon that was inexpensive to provide to all the officers and was defensible in court. We ended up with Glocks. And being in NY we have the NY plus trigger, in other words it's not very good. But lawyers like it. On the plus side uniformity with training is a very good thing. I don't understand how some departments provide good training with everyone armed differently. Pick what you want, but stay with one thing. How do you design courses of fire with double action revolvers next to glocks next to 1911's? Unsafe.

 

[Prosser]

Having large hands, one thing has been made really clear: custom grips and equipment are vital to accuracy.

MikeNice: thanks for the explanation. I'll turn that over and say that for every little person, there is a big person that needs larger grips to shoot well. Why do I get stuck with a tiny grip?

I don't get the recoil argument, either. You can tailor recoil with bullet weight and powder charge.

If you have little people that can't handle recoil, load, 135 grain NOS JHP, at minimum pressure, 28k psi, is still going 1372 fps using Autocomp. That's only 8.7 grains of powder. Recoil Energy of 7 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 15 fps.
That gives you essentially a .357 Magnum medium load, with a .41 caliber bullet, at 1400 fps, with the recoil of a 9mm, in a 2 pound gun.
Others that can shoot heavier loads should be provided with them.

As for Glocks: The ONLY glock I ever shot well was the 34, tricked out as a race gun. It had a 3 pound trigger, was accurate, recoiled very little, and I would carry it anytime. At a certain point fear of litigation needs to be turned around when someone is issued a gun that they cannot shoot well because of poor design, and they get killed because of it.

"Mr. Prosser,

When LEOs carried the N-Frame Smiths (.357, .41, .44, .45LC), notice that you never heard anything about "Stopping Power Issues".



Just my .02,
LeonCarr
___________"

I agree. Sometimes newer is NOT better. I also can't help but think that looking at the gapping holes in an N frame has a seriously sobering experience on bad guys. Perhaps another category of didn't have to shoot is perhaps as important as what is
reported.

I know of one officer that was carrying a .41 Magnum and decided the bad guy was too well covered by a car and was too good with the .454 Casull he carried to take on that day. Saved two lives I think.

 

[Rexster]

Liability and cost. They chose a weapon that was inexpensive to provide to all the officers and was defensible in court. We ended up with Glocks. And being in NY we have the NY plus trigger, in other words it's not very good. But lawyers like it. On the plus side uniformity with training is a very good thing. I don't understand how some departments provide good training with everyone armed differently. Pick what you want, but stay with one thing. How do you design courses of fire with double action revolvers next to glocks next to 1911's? Unsafe.

Unsafe? The principles of handling firearms safely are largely the same. Our guys carrying grandfathered 1911s seem no less safe than the officers carrying DA weapons. Indeed, the 1911 guys are often the more "gunny" officers, more Cooper-esque in their gun-handlng habits, and therefore more in tune with the Cooper version of the rules of firearms safety.

For a while, there were so many ND incidents with Glocks, that Glock nearly
became the first and only brand to be banned, by name, by my employer, for
any carry, on or off the clock. The incidents seemed to level off after a while,
though the popularity of the Glock still means most ND incidents happen with
Glocks.

Courses of fire? My PD's qual course still mandates that each reloading device be loaded with six rounds. For better or worse, this is true. On the street, officers still tend to empty their autos at bad guys, not stopping at six rounds.

In other ways, the revolver guys/gals have to work HARD to stay up with the auto guys/gals. Speed-loading skills must be very well-developed, as the reload times have been cut since the old days. The slackers and shirkers
switched to Glocks long ago, or retired. The DA/SA shooters have to have their
DA-to-SA skills down at, too, as they are expected to de-cock every time the
target turns away, which most of the time is after every two shots.

I can still do well in the qual shooting a sixgun, though I did not "grandfather" a revolver in 1997, so cannot carry a sixgun as a primary duty handgun, unless I become a plainclothes investigator; a deeply-buried phrase in the policy indicates I might be able to switch back to certain 4" S&W DA revolvers. I do still qual with revolvers in the "off-duty" and back-up category, which mean I can shoot a non-timed course involving two distances at a stationary target, but I occasionally opt to fire the timed turning-target duty pistol qual
as a training exercise. We are a big PD, and to keep everyone qual'ed, our
range runs three shifts, five days/nights a week.

 

[theSHADOEknows]

I'm not a LEO, but my local PD has carried Glock 17s as long as I can remember. About 5 months ago, S&W came in and offered to replace all those Glocks with M&P's, in the caliber of each individual officer's choice, for the cost of a new duty holster from Smith.

YMMV, but if it were me, I couldn't pass up a shiny new Smith for next to nothin!

 

[MikeNice]

MikeNice: thanks for the explanation. I'll turn that over and say that for every little person, there is a big person that needs larger grips to shoot well. Why do I get stuck with a tiny grip?

That is why our department went with the customizable M&P.

If you have little people that can't handle recoil. . .

No department is going to load their own bullets. First it is cheaper to buy them than to pay somebody to load different loads, test them, inventory it, and track their distribution to the correct officers.

Second, their is a liability issue. Somebody will sue because the bullet was "customized for maxium carnage" or something similar. It also opens up a horrible PR nightmare. The press loves to tear apart cops that use their guns. A cop using a "custom" load would be in for a world of hurt in public opinion.

 

[whalerman]

Rexter, I understand what you are saying. I don't disagree with you regarding your assertions about 1911 people in particular. Arguments can be made for arming officers with all types of weapons. But when you are on a firing line with dozens of trainees, it's not advantageous to have some pulling speedloaders, others working 6 round mags and others equipped with hi-capacity mags. Most departments, in the interest of safety, want to see things happen in a uniform manner. Too much chaos for the lawyers. But I understand that there could be advantages to your view as well.

Rexter, you must have a lot of fun with all those different types of weapons on your training lines. Here in NY, we only are blessed with many different types of lawyers.

 

[Prosser]

At a certain point, the greater good, protecting human life, rates over simplicity of instruction and political correctness.

Likewise, at a certain point, the ability to protect individual lives is going to rate over political correctness.

Judges and attorneys are not idiots. The argument can be presented and won that the officer's lives are at stake, and firearms must be matched to their individual attributes for them to shoot the firearms correctly. Likewise their ammunition. I'm sitting here thinking of how much fun it would be to bring in a S&W 500 and have some 100 pound girl try to aim it, and, likewise, a 360PD
with a 16 pound trigger...

 

[bpsig]

WHEN I STARTED THE POLICY STATED 38 SPECIAL MINIMUM. BALL AMMO. BUT WAS BEING REVISED. WE HAD FIRST GEN GLOCK 40'S /17'S . 645 S&W COLT 1911. 686/ PYTHONS. THEN NEW IDEAS WE HAD EARLY 40'S SENT BACK 6-7 TIMES FOR UPGRADES. fINALLY GOT NEW ONES AND SPECIAL OKAY FOR 9MM OR 45. I UNDERSTAND THEY ARE FLEXIBLE NOW. 40 OR 357 SIG GLOCK OR 229/226.
NEW DEPT ISSUE IS 226 9MM SUBSONICS. SINCE HAVE STOCKPILE FROM WHEN HAD SUPPRESSED MP-5'S. AND CHEAPEST AMMO FOR QUAL NO TRAINING EVER.
ONLY ONE VENDOR ALLOWED WHEN POINTED OUT OTHER WAS CHEAPER AND COULD GET BETTER AMMO. ANSWER WAS WHATS WRONG WITH CHEAP ?