less-than-lethal for my girlfriend...

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Billmanweh

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I bought my girlfriend a Surefire E2e to carry in her purse, but I would like to get her something a little more 'self defense' effective that she can carry with her when she's going from her car to work, or car to home, etc. A gun is out of the question, so we're talking less-than-lethal.

My first thought is a can of OC spray and a Surefire E2D and maybe attach a quality whistle to the Surefire.

Any other thoughts?
 
The two ounce size is more manageable than the 'fire extinguisher' lookalikes. That's a good idea IMHO, I prefer stream to fog as I think it's less likely to blow back. YMMV.

Might also take a look at http://www.defensedevices.com/aspkeydefender.html . Less juice and less range than the Fox spray above but it can be carried in the hand ready to flip off the safety and spray while walking and is very unobtrusive. My wife carries hers tucked into her waistband, easier to keep up with keys than playing the 'which pocket' game six times a day too. There is a smaller version (Palm Defender) and a larger one (Street Defender), I carry the larger one. Serves as an impct weapon too (kubotan) and allows use of keys as a flail as a last resort- 3 weapons in one.

Note that there are inert (no pepper) training versions of both of the above available. Training with the stuff is a good idea.

lpl/nc
 
I've heard good things about Fox spray. I have no first hand experience with it, but it's the brand everyone reccomends whenever I ask people about it.

I HIGHLY reccomend finding an OC Spray Defensive class. Does she know how to most effectively use the spray? At what range is it most effective? How much does the wind effect it? How much "blowback" should she expect to receive herself if she uses it? How does she decontaminate herself afterwards? These are important things to know.

Btw, don't worry about being sprayed during training. AFAIK, that is only SOP for cops and spray trainers. Ordinary folks who take OC classes use an inert spray.
 
I would strongly recommend against OC if she's carrying it for defense against violent criminals. Without going too far into my usual rant...

1) It is worthless against motivated violent attackers unless you can do something extreme like shove it into their mouths and empty it down their throats.

2) The original FBI "It works like magic" trials were fraudulent. For money. The guy in charge did several years for accepting the bribe and cooking the results.

3) Any number of police have been seriously messed up by spraying in the approved manner by people who didn't fall down gasping as advertised. And the FTC forced MSI Mace to write a letter retracting all claims that the stuff stops attackers.

And so on.
 
Why is a gun out of the question? In my opinion, it's better to have it & not need it than to need it & not have it.:)
 
I would suggest the X26 Taser for her. I have seen this model take down people of all sizes and mental states. Having been drive stuned with it myself, I can assure you it will get the job done.

The civilian model starts with a solid 7 seconds for the initail burst followed by several 1.8 second breaks for a total cycle of 30 seconds. This would allow her to hit the BG, drop the taser and have 30 seconds to flee.

I have also heard that Taser will replace a unit lost after an encounter if you submit a proper police report to them. Never verified this though.

X26 Taser

Nothing is 100%, but this is the closest I have seen.
 
Billmanweh-

send me an email with your address to [email protected] and I'll send her a free can of O.C.- no strings attached.

I'm a distributor and won't miss one can!:D

Take care-Anthony
 
buddy, i gotta disagree. less lethal means an INTERMEDIATE level of force.

you live in texas acording to your user info so why is a gun not an option? correct me if i'm wrong for assuming that it's because your girlfriend doesn't like or is afraid of guns. if that is the case, then you got bigger problems. in my experience, people who don't like or are afraid of (really the same thing) guns are not psychologically capable of defending themselves anyway. now this part is gonna be really hard for you to swallow and you'll probably just dismiss me out of hand but here it is: WITHOUT A GUN, SHE IS A VICTIM. anything else will only serve to make her feel better.

so here's how you solve it: you could *gasp* actually ASK her how she feels about everything. odds are she doesn't feel as vulnerable as you think she is. in reality, she's probably more vulnerable than either of you realize but that's not the point. ASK her if she is willing to simply be a victim. if you are confident that she really, truly refuses to be a victim (and isn't just saying it to get you to shut up), then you can start by getting her training in how to avoid bad situations. the nra's refuse to be a victim program is a good start. martial arts training will help develop a mindset and physicality necessary to win. finally, a firearm and training will most likely allow her to survive nearly any violent encounter. after all this, one can think about whether less lethal options should be included as well.
 
Thanks for all the suggestions. I'll take it all in and then sit down with her and see what we can come up with.
 
chopinbloc said:
in my experience, people who don't like or are afraid of (really the same thing) guns are not psychologically capable of defending themselves anyway. now this part is gonna be really hard for you to swallow and you'll probably just dismiss me out of hand but here it is: WITHOUT A GUN, SHE IS A VICTIM. anything else will only serve to make her feel better.
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There's no way of saying it nicely. You're absolutely, 100% wrong here. Not just wrong, dead wrong. And it's a shame because lots of good people fall into the same trap.

A gun is a piece of metal and plastic. It has no will, no volition, and will not do jack to keep you safe. It's the hand that holds it and the mind that guides the hand that make it an effective tool. There are times when it's an excellent tool and some where it's the best tool for the job. But it's the woman or man who wields it who is the weapon. Without the right mindset and attitude she could have a machine gun, grenades, swords and pistols and still be completely unarmed. With them she is not helpless as long as the brain is connected to the body and she can move.

If she believes the line you're selling then she will always be a victim. She will believe that it is the magic talisman that keeps her safe, not her own courage and determination. Without a gun she'll be helpless. If she knows that she is what keeps her safe she'll be infinitely better off. Agency or dependency. It really is that simple. The answer isn't "a gun". The answer is self-reliance. The gun is just one means to part of that end.

I won't go into the statistics. That work has been done and repeated over the last twenty five years. Suffice it to say that even without a tool those who resist (especially women) have an excellent chance of victory. A gun just ups the odds and gives another option.

so here's how you solve it: you could *gasp* actually ASK her how she feels about everything. odds are she doesn't feel as vulnerable as you think she is.
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Excellent advice.

in reality, she's probably more vulnerable than either of you realize but that's not the point. ASK her if she is willing to simply be a victim. if you are confident that she really, truly refuses to be a victim (and isn't just saying it to get you to shut up), then you can start by getting her training in how to avoid bad situations. the nra's refuse to be a victim program is a good start. martial arts training will help develop a mindset and physicality necessary to win. finally, a firearm and training will most likely allow her to survive nearly any violent encounter. after all this, one can think about whether less lethal options should be included as well.
Click to expand...

Maybe she is, maybe she isn't. Odds are she has a much better grasp of the realities of her life than you give her credit for. Most women I know do. With good information about that reality and a choice of options she can make her own choices which may or may not include a gun or any other tool.

In a lot of ways I like to start the training from the inside out. If the person is receptive to the idea of self defense, knowledge is the first weapon. Then she can decide based on her assessment of her needs and situation. A lot of times I like to teach unarmed physical self protection first. The mystics say "The body trains the mind." They're right. Accessing courage, anger, aggression and self-reliance is the only important lesson. You can theorize and think forever, but if you know it physically you know it. Once she relies on what she is rather than what she has she will be in a much better position to choose what she thinks is right for her rather than what someone else decides she needs.
 
Todd ~

A can of pepper spray she will use is infinitely to be preferred to a firearm that she won't use. No matter how much it may offend another person's tactical sensibilities, if she is not prepared to cope with the emotional, social, and legal consequences of using deadly force, she's better off to have pepper spray than nothing at all. (In response to your first post -- I agree with every word of your second one!)

Bill ~

I strongly recommend you get her into a class on pepper spray, so that she will know for herself what pepper spray can and cannot do for her if she ever needs to use it. Added advantage is that she will hear from other people, not just from her boyfriend, the limitations of pepper spray and the best way to use the stuff.

There's a Monadnock Persuader (like a Kubotan) on my keychain. It's not much, and I don't have a whole lot of faith in it, but if it came down to it I'd sure rather have at least that much, rather than empty hands, if I were ever attacked. If it's on her keychain, she's more likely to have it in her hand when needed, which is also all to the good. Again, if you get her one of those, do your best to get her into a class on how to use it -- if for no other reason than because she'll get the safety/preparedness/willingness to fight lecture from someone besides her boyfriend.

HTH.

pax
 
Billmanweh said:
I'll take you up on that. Appreciate it...
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On it's way Bill!

A few thoughts-

The taser IS avery good piece of equipment-though pricey.

I agree with Pax's comments-training is a good idea.

I also know that O.C. isn't as effective as a firearm in the hands of a capable user. As Pax states though it's better than nothing. A lot of people I know would NEVER carry a gun or knife. While I don't agree with their reasoning- I'd rather see them have O.C, a baton, a kubotan, a taser etc.- than nothing.

In addition- there are times when force is needed- but a gun isn't warranted.

Over the years I've had probably 20 people I've sold nonlethal stuff to come up to me and thank me because it stopped a situation from getting worse.

I'm glad they had SOMETHING on them when they needed it.

IMHO-Anthony
 
Mannlicher said:
If guns are ruled out, then there is nothing that will guarantee her safety. Less than Lethal does not cut it.
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Nothing can guarantee your safety. Armed police officers are killed all the time. Presidents guarded by dozens of the most highly trained, armed law enforcement are killed.

She's not going to carry a gun, so I'd like to try and avoid bogging down a thread about less-than-lethal by constantly going back to the gun thing.
 
A gun is a piece of metal and plastic. It has no will, no volition, and will not do jack to keep you safe. It's the hand that holds it and the mind that guides the hand that make it an effective tool.
Click to expand...

you're absolutely right; i wasn't trying to suggest otherwise. perhaps i was unclear so let me try again.

i have noticed that most folks who have a fear of firearms (note i said most, not all) also lack a fighting spirit. i'm not saying this because she's a girl, either. people who are fighters and are determined to live will usually choose effective tools. less lethal tools are best used in conjunction with lethal tools. if pepper spray is ineffective, a handgun or rifle might be.

in any case, the lady in question is not open to firearms as part of her defensive toolbox. that raises concerns that she does not have a fighting mentality. if this is the case, then she might be better off without any weapon and simply a little more knowledge about how to avoid problems. let me explain why i feel this way. to survive a violent encounter that one has been unable to avoid in the first place, one must be highly aggressive. this is not something i just came up with, this is a simple fact of nature. unfortunately, some folks are just naturally docile and can't be aggressive. it is probable that you can train aggressiveness into nearly anyone (hence my suggestion that she take martial arts) but i don't have the psych degree to prove or disprove that idea. if someone is not capable of acting in an aggressive manner, it is likely that the oc, baton, taser or whatever will be thought of as the magic talisman that you mentioned earlier maybe even to the point that they aren't even able to use a nonlethal weapon. even if they are, the effectiveness of all of these tools is extremely limited and may serve to give her a false sense of confidence and further enrage her attacker. on the other hand, a person with an aggressive nature and the will to survive, no matter what it costs the OTHER person may prevail using nothing more than a set of keys, a can of wd40 or even there bare fists.

my point is not that she absolutely should go completely unarmed, nor that you force her to carry a gun (good luck) but that her fear of guns indicates a deepre problem that needs to be resolved before you can even approach the issue of tools. i stand by my asessment that a firearm is the most effective tool, however.

lastly, i'd like to ask how this came up. did she express a desire to be more physically secure or is this only because YOU are concerned for her safety?
 
my ex GF wasn't afraid of guns

but when she got her new shotgun from remington the manual said do not load untill ready to shoot, so now she thinks having a shotgun with some shells in the mag is some how dangerous:rolleyes:
She likes having the gun but will only shoot it once evry few years and needs to read the manual each time ...I asked her what she will do if an intruder breaks in, her plan is to just point an empty shotgun at the guy:banghead:

she thinks I'm just a gun nut ...thats why I'm the ex!:D

oh yeah, I used tons of pepper spray on SF homeless mafia, foggers only work when it's not windy!
if you get her pepper spray she must practice with it!!!
 
chopinbloc said:
my point is not that she absolutely should go completely unarmed, nor that you force her to carry a gun (good luck) but that her fear of guns indicates a deepre problem that needs to be resolved before you can even approach the issue of tools. i stand by my asessment that a firearm is the most effective tool, however.
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No-one has even mentioned anything about her being afraid of guns except for you. You have completely projected this passive fear of guns onto the discussion that isn't here except for your posts.

I'm still interested in feedback related to my original question.
 
Bill ~

Please forgive me for participating even slightly in a thread hijack, but chopinbloc said something that is dangerously wrong. I don't want some naturally-timid woman to read what he wrote and think it is the truth.
chopinbloc said:
to survive a violent encounter that one has been unable to avoid in the first place, one must be highly aggressive.
Click to expand...
That is absolutely, utterly not true.

The very most violent and dangerous variety of rapists -- serial killers -- will often stop what they are doing if their chosen victim fights back even as much as simply yelling for help when first attacked. That is because these career criminals do not want to risk getting caught and are canny enough to know that there is always a more compliant victim they can catch another day. For these most-dangerous attackers, any level of fighting back is absolutely the right thing to do.

You do not have to be some sort of extraordinarily trained super fighter in order to fight back and save your life if you are attacked. While it is generally better to have better tools and better training, any method of fighting back, even one that you aren't very good at, usually has a better outcome than passively submitting to murder.

This is why pepper spray that a woman will use and have with her is infinitely better than nothing at all. Even though pepper spray isn't the perfect defense tool in every situation, if it gives her the confidence to fight back, it is the perfect tool for her.

We now return you to your regularly-scheduled thread.

****

Bill ~

I'd also recommend she visit Marc MacYoung's website, www.nononsenseselfdefense.com He's put out an amazing amount of information about self-defense and criminal behaviour, and is very down to earth about the types of things to look for in order to avoid being targeted by a criminal.

By the way, the whistle really isn't the best investment. It'll help a lot if she's ever lost in the woods, but its use as a crime deterrent was probably more effective back in the day when police patrolled on foot and summoned help with a whistle.

The SureFire is a great thing to have in any case, not just useful for criminal attacks but for road-crossing safety and just as a general tool for finding stuff in the dark. Tell her she needs to get in the habit of digging it out of her purse before she leaves any building after dark. None of this stuff will help at all if it's buried at the bottom of her purse instead of in her hand when she needs it.

Also, in addition to weapons-tools, make sure her car is well-equipped in the event of a breakdown -- a can of Fix-a-Flat, a working cell phone, a membership in AAA road service, and a comfortable pair of tennis shoes in case she decides to walk for help.

pax
 
pax said:
By the way, the whistle really isn't the best investment. It'll help a lot if she's ever lost in the woods, but its use as a crime deterrent was probably more effective back in the day when police patrolled on foot and summoned help with a whistle.

The SureFire is a great thing to have in any case, not just useful for criminal attacks but for road-crossing safety and just as a general tool for finding stuff in the dark. Tell her she needs to get in the habit of digging it out of her purse before she leaves any building after dark. None of this stuff will help at all if it's buried at the bottom of her purse instead of in her hand when she needs it.
Click to expand...


I don't know why I have the whistle on the brain. I guess I just thought it would be an easy way to make a LOT of noise easily if she felt threatened.

She was definitely not a flashlight person before we met, but she's seen the light now. I think she's up to three Surefires, a Tigerlight, and an Arc AAA.
 
I think the "bear" cans of pepper etc are illegal to carry in Texas; but a small class ABC fire extinguisher might be quite effective - and double as an impromtu impact weapon if needed. No license (or restrictions) required for a simple safety device.

That or a small heavy leather handbag - custom made if necessary - with extra strong attachments for a longish, extra strong leather shoulder strap. With a few dollars in change for all those phonecalls and parking meters etc, and a few other little nick-nacks it ought to make a pretty tough rock in a sock.

Mindset is very important. And as well as vigilance, the necessary aggression needs to be instantly available. Just ensure that the handbag is not overloaded, and when employed can be done so with speed and unrelenting ferocity - until the attacker is off his feet, in obvious weak submission or fleeing.
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