Lessons from my friend's "encounter"

[crazyjennyblack]

A friend of mine had an experience with a potential hold-up a few weeks ago, and I thought I might write about what he told me and the things he learned.

He went shopping late at night (2am). He's been through a divorce this last year, so he was in a bad mood, and went out to clear his mind before going to bed. He normally carries, but he didn't for some reason that night. My friend is also not a big guy – nobody would ever mistake him for a football player, so his main form of defense is a pistol, not physical strength. As he walked in to Walmart, a guy stepped out behind his back in the parking lot and asks “Hey man, can I see your wallet?” while holding a small pistol. My friend turns around quickly, stares at him, and says simply "Bad choice" while taking a step or two toward the guy. The guy with the gun put it away, said “nevermind, I thought you were someone else” and ran off. My friend told me at the time even though he was unarmed, he was so mad at life in general (and didn't care if he lived) he would have taken the guy on in spite of the weapon.

The lessons I take from my friend's encounter are the following:

1. If you're PO'd at the world and people see it, they might not want to mess with you.
2. Mindset over Toolset. My friend had no toolset at all, but his mindset at the time was “I’m gonna REALLY mess up your day.” It worked.
3. The day you FORGET your gun is the day something will happen.
4. The day you mess up on your situational awareness is the day someone gets the drop on you. My friend was too deep in his emotional funk to remember his weapon and pay attention to the guy slipping up behind him. It could have ended badly.

 

[Sam1911]

Something I was once told by folks who had spent a lot of time in practical simulations and force-on-force roleplay training is that the weapon is only the very last tool in the toolset, and that your ability to work through encounters using your social skills (of many and varied types) was the primary defense mechanism once an encounter has started.

The second part of that was that one person's social tactics rarely work for the next person. Whatever you do -- comply, deceive, feint, or out-aggression the aggressor -- has to be genuine and in character for you at that moment. You have to "SELL" it.

That some people had a way about them that, even in simulated encounters with play-actors, when they went "on" aggressors lost the desire to push the fight.

Sounds like your friend had a moment of that sort of synchrony: Where his willingness to give and take was made manifestly clear through his body language and countenance, to an aggressor who really didn't want to make such an investment in trouble right then.

Glad it worked for him. Might not work for him with the next guy. Might not work for him some other day -- when the sun is shining and he's got a new girlfriend and the world looks happy and he really DOES want to wake up tomorrow.

 

[CA Raider]

Darn good thread.

The day you mess up on SA .... Haha! How true that is.

Social skills first, weapon next. Also a great approach.

The tricky thing is that every situation is different, and you've only got a few instants of time to size things up and get an answer.

CA R

 

[Glocktogo]

I spent 2 years as head of security for a c&w nightclub. On a good Wed, Fri or Sat night, we'd have 1,200 patrons. We didn't use bouncers, just uniformed security. We were all former military of some type. We had an excellent rapport with the local PD. We didn't "bust heads". If we said it was time to go, that's it. If you fought you went to jail, period.

In two years, I can count on both hands with fingers left over the number of times we had to physically subdue someone. it was usually their first and last time in the club. Psychology was our most effective tool. It's not 100%, but you'd be surprised what you can pull off when using it to your advantage.

 

[another pake]

All of those attitudes or lessons, but especially numbers 1 and 2, can just as easily be held by bad guys.

Be aware. Be ready.

 

[Fred Fuller]

Criminals are like Forrest Gump's box of chocolates - you never know what you're gonna get.

It would be my luck to run up on a bad guy who was in the same kind of mood your friend was in

 

[crazyjennyblack]

I agree with Sam1911 and Fred Fuller. You never know what you're going to get. As a woman, I doubt I would have the luck that my friend did, of running into someone who was willing to back down. Plus, I care about waking up the next morning!

At the time, my friend wasn't doing real well. He tempted fate quite a bit for a few months - drove too fast, drank too much, and at the time wouldn't have cared if he took a bullet. I don't think many of us are in that level of "bad mood" very often. I like Sam1911's idea of the "give and take" or "investment" in a criminal encounter. That hits the nail on the head. Most of us aren't as "desperate" or as willing to use force as the criminals are. That was also brought out in another current thread on the "realities of the street."

 

[armedwalleye]

As a man, I doubt I would have had the luck.

As nicely as I can put it on this forum, buy that man a wheelbarrow. That's a lot of stones to carry around.

 

[Mike1234567]

I agree with Sam1911 and Fred Fuller. You never know what you're going to get. As a woman, I doubt I would have the luck that my friend did, of running into someone who was willing to back down. Plus, I care about waking up the next morning!

At the time, my friend wasn't doing real well. He tempted fate quite a bit for a few months - drove too fast, drank too much, and at the time wouldn't have cared if he took a bullet. I don't think many of us are in that level of "bad mood" very often. I like Sam1911's idea of the "give and take" or "investment" in a criminal encounter. That hits the nail on the head. Most of us aren't as "desperate" or as willing to use force as the criminals are. That was also brought out in another current thread on the "realities of the street."

I'm always in that foul mood, LOL!! A good thing about it is that I never panic.

 

[Field Tester]

As a man, I doubt I would have had the luck.

As nicely as I can put it on this forum, buy that man a wheelbarrow. That's a lot of stones to carry around.

I disagree.
I don't think it was testicular fortitude. I think your friend is in a very bad place, and needs you now more than ever. He essentially told you he's not far from giving up. It's almost a death wish. I pray he leaves this funk behind soon.

I understand though. Several of us have been there before. It's a place he needs to get out of immediately. It's not his actions, but his midset behind them that scare me. It doesn't sound like at this point he would harm himself or anyone else, but his actions show his will to survive are all but gone.

Imagine if the man with the gun had the same "nothing to lose" mindset. This would have ended differently. And many on the street do have that very mindset.

Your buddy's depression is affecting his logical choices, this is almost never safe. Might be smart to get him some help, or help him focus on something in his life worth fighting for.

 

[Mainsail]

I've never come home and thought to myself, "I shouldn't have bothered bringing my gun along."

I DO know without a doubt that if I had needed it and not brought it I'd be pretty mad at myself.

 

[pbearperry]

Your friend should but a lottery ticket.I would say he was very lucky.Calling bluff seldom works that well.

 

[mrdeltoid]

Every situation is different. We can analyze them all day long. Always fun to consider though. In this particular situation, your friend was in a bad place in the sense that he had to play catch up no matter what he chose to do. If the other guy already has his gun out, you are not going to get yours out and get on target quicker. We can all hope to control the situation in some way so that it never gets to that point.

 

[crazyjennyblack]

Yep. He definitely started off in a bad place on multiple counts.

Field Tester and armedwalleye - I'm not really sure if it was stones or not in this case, since he has a definite stubborn streak. I wouldn't wish a bad divorce on anyone, since it really seems to mess a person up or a couple of years. He's had this thing going on for almost 12 months.

It does make me wonder though, how many people out there on the street have the exact same thing going on. One catchphrase I heard a while back about the economic collapse was "When people lose everything, they lose it." I suppose anyone can get a bit of a death wish if things get really bad, but it makes you think twice about who you're around on a daily basis.

I chatted with my friend about it a couple of days ago, and he mentioned feeling incredibly stupid for not having his gun along and that even when he's feeling lazy now he takes a pocket .22. I bet that's about the worst feeling in the world - having the guns, having the training, having the license, but not bringing it on the day you might have needed it most.

 

[Nite Ryder]

Like other posters have said, "every situation is different". If the bad guy already has a gun out and pointing it at you, there is no way you can draw your own gun and beat him. If he is standing close enough to you, you can disarm him, but only if you get him to talking before you attempt the disarm. Most people can't talk and react (pull a trigger) at the same time. While going through recruit school as an LEO, we practiced disarming each other, the secret is to get the bad guy talking and thinking about something besides pulling the trigger. Another tactic is to put our left hand on your chest and fake a heart attack, and pull your gun as you bend over in pain. Works best if you yell "I need help, I'm having a heart attack", it's doubtful the bad guy will shoot you when you are having a heart attack. Nothing takes the place of situational awareness and having your loaded gun in a good functional holster. I would recommend using your brain first to size up the situation and decide how you will react and possible danger involved, and using your gun as a last resort. One other thing I learned in recruit school "don't push an old man, he will just shoot you instead of argue with you".

 

[Sam1911]

That would be one of the possible social skills you might be able to use to work your way through. That's a good one to expand on the idea of "selling" it with. If you're a young, fit, 20-something that heart attack ploy may really torque off the guy who's sticking you up. He doesn't want to be "played" and is in a hurry. "This dude's messing with me" could easily shift the situation from a money thing to a dominance/respect thing with a now irate assailant.

Stick-up men are working a job, of sorts, one they're probably relatively experienced and good at, and they want to be in control and speedy about their work. Obviously disrespecting/disobeying one, and holding up his program may turn the situation instantly from, essentially, a business transaction into an act of dominance violence.

If you're a slightly flabby 60-year-old and a good actor, a heart attack feint might be really workable. But the crook isn't stupid (well, not necessarily, anyway) and you've probably got less than even odds he's going to be fooled. If he doesn't buy it, you just made a bad situation very much worse.


---

This is somewhat similar to the old concept of a "throw-down wallet" which has been often offered as a good idea. The thought being that you'd drop or toss a disposable wallet with a few bucks in it and the bad guy will momentarily chase it or be distracted by it like a Pavlovian dog.

Or, his face flushes and turn furious and says, "I said HAND IT TO ME <expletive>!!!" and then maybe shoots you for dissing him in front of his accomplices.

If you're going to pull a trick, remember that you're putting on the show of your life. Maybe the last one. Make it good!

 

[MedWheeler]

I don't think it was testicular fortitude. I think your friend is in a very bad place, and needs you now more than ever. He essentially told you he's not far from giving up. It's almost a death wish. I pray he leaves this funk behind soon.

I don't agree that the words he issued ("Bad choice!") were indicative of a suicide wish, though he was likely very depressed at that stage in life. Something more like a dare to go ahead and shoot might be, however. I think he wasn't really even thinking due to his hostile-at-the-world attitude.
Assertiveness goes a long way. In this commentary:

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1285487_.html

the author even encourages behavior that might indicate being armed when not. But, he doesn't go so far as to say it's a good idea once one is already facing a barrel end.

I guess it's simply going to vary from person to person, and situation to situation.

The "teaching points", as listed in the OP, are good to note.

 

[Field Tester]

OP very clearly states in the opening post that her friend was mad at the world AND DIDN'T CARE IF HE LIVED.

 

[Field Tester]

Also I never said he had a suicide wish. You really need to go back and reread the exact portion you quoted.

 

[Glock Doctor]

Originally Posted By, crazyjennyblack:
The day you FORGET your gun is the day something will happen.

Not exactly! The one time you deliberately leave your pistol in the car is when you'll be involved in an armed robbery. To quote my wife, 'I was a little worried about you!' 'That guy who entered the store after you looked really, 'dirty!'

(The Hell, you say!)

 

[crazyjennyblack]

Sam1911 - I've often thought about the "crook wallet" idea. Stick a decent-looking copy of your DL with fake and/or old info on it, a couple of fake credit cards or those "Visa gift card" promotional things that look like credit cards but aren't, and maybe five bucks in cash. If you get held up, then you have something that looks quite real but in reality is worth maybe ten dollars total. You can either do the Pavlov dog thing and throw it for him to chase, or if it seems risky try to hand it to him. In my case, I could possibly play the "frightened little female" and shakily drop it while handing it to him, which may get him to bend over to pick it up.

I think assessing the situation goes a long way. My friend described his stick-up guy as being fairly young, possibly in his late teens. Who knows what the guy's motive could have been, but the way he acted could indicate he was uncertain of himself and lacked experience in his chosen "profession."

 

[Sam1911]

Sam1911 - I've often thought about the "crook wallet" idea. Stick a decent-looking copy of your DL with fake and/or old info on it, a couple of fake credit cards or those "Visa gift card" promotional things that look like credit cards but aren't, and maybe five bucks in cash. If you get held up, then you have something that looks quite real but in reality is worth maybe ten dollars total. You can either do the Pavlov dog thing and throw it for him to chase, or if it seems risky try to hand it to him. In my case, I could possibly play the "frightened little female" and shakily drop it while handing it to him, which may get him to bend over to pick it up.

The important thing to ask about such ideas is always, "and then, what?"

After you hand him a wallet with fake cards in it and none of the real trappings of a wallet someone actually uses, or more than a few bucks, then what?

After you drop it and he does -- or doesn't -- react, then what?

Neither of those is the end of the incident. So now you're standing there ... what happens next?

Do you expect he'll pocket the wallet without looking at it and leave? Why do you think so? Or, what odds do you predict for yourself that he won't check to make sure you've not screwed him over? Probably not his first rodeo, so to speak.

Do you think you'll toss it and he'll run to grab it, and you'll run away?

Not saying those things couldn't work, but they aren't a destination, just a possible step along the route to safety (or death, depending).

 

[Mike1234567]

What is our world worth if we're not prepared to defend what's right? How do we define ourselves if it takes personal trauma to makes us "not care enough about our own behinds" to defend what's right?

 

[easyg]

1. If you're PO'd at the world and people see it, they might not want to mess with you.

Or they might just target you because you not in a good defensive mental state.
Anger clouds judgement, always.

2. Mindset over Toolset. My friend had no toolset at all, but his mindset at the time was “I’m gonna REALLY mess up your day.” It worked.

Considering that he was facing an armed opponent, I think it an incredibly stupid thing that your friend did.
He should have used the mindset to RUN!
If had just ran like hell there's a good chance the guy wouldn't have shot at all. And if he did shoot there's a good chance that he wouldn't have hit your friend. And had he hit your friend there's a good chance that your friend would have survived the shooting.
Walking toward an armed threat considerably reduces the chance of surviving the encounter.

3. The day you FORGET your gun is the day something will happen.

Murphy law: Anything that can go wrong will go wrong, and at the worse possible time.

4. The day you mess up on your situational awareness is the day someone gets the drop on you. My friend was too deep in his emotional funk to remember his weapon and pay attention to the guy slipping up behind him. It could have ended badly.

Your friend is lucky to be alive.

 

[strambo]

It worked because he wasn't bluffing, he was ready to throw down.

I have tons of experience dealing with drugged and/or mentally ill and/or emotionally distraught people. I never bluffed, I told them what the options of the situation were and didn't care what they chose (violence or compliance) because I know that ultimately, I can never control the thoughts and actions of others, nor can I count on them act in a rational manner or even in their own best interest.

All you can do in any given moment in a situation is assess your options and decide to act or not. One thing I did was I separated what they are saying from their actions. I never allow myself to believe (or not believe) what they are saying. So, if they say "I'm leaving" that's fine, but I'll believe it when they are physically far enough away from me as to not be a threat.

That way I can't really get "sucker punched." If they say they are leaving, turn way, then reverse and punch, I'm not surprised because my guard isn't let down until they are gone. They say they want my wallet, fine, I may give it to them, but I don't assume it will stop there or it's over when I hand it over.

I have never had something escalate to violence if I had a chance to talk to them 1st, I figure they knew I was was ready and didn't care either way and chose better.

All you can do is be confident and ready, willing, and able to defend yourself without hesitation and to the hilt. In most cases they will sense this and think better like in the OP. In a lot of cases a look will do it. If not, then injure them until they are non-functional via the best method you have (gun, knife, club or bare hands).

With the nature of violent crime...odds are if it happens to you it will be when your awareness is down. Think about it, victim selection 101, pick the easy targets. Nobody can be switched on 24/7, it happens to all of us (loss of awareness). I have done protection work in Baghdad and been on 2 combat tours. I couldn't be switched on all the the time overseas, I certainly get lost in my thoughts here, it happens. Overall, I am more alert/aware than 99.99% of the population, but odds are if I get selected to be victimized it will be when I am off my game. It will be sudden and violent, just the nature of the beast. Hopefully, that day won't come.