Lessons learned? Miami shootout...

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Hi Folks,
I saw a thread somewhere where the argument was about how a 9mm round was inadequate, then came the argument of shot placement vs. caliber.
From time to time, I revisit some of shootout descriptions because I try to gleen as much info as I can to learn what to avoid.
If any of you review reports from time to time, I would like to mention FBI-Miami Shootout as a report to look at.
Have any of you other reports to recommend?
Does anyone else in THR look at these reports?
 
Lessons learned? Miami shootout...
Click to expand...

Sometime no matter what, the odds catch up with you.

This whole back-n-forth over how the 9mm won’t harm a mere mortal yet the .40 caliber will blow Superman clean out of his shoes at 400 yards is rather 9th grad-ish.

We have the Miami shootout and the North Hollywood shootout to point to, but yet no one seems to point out the number of people who were successfully stopped over the years by 9mm or the .38 caliber in LE both here and in Europe.

Not to mention the shear number of folks who have died at the hands of some punk wielding a .22 or .25 automatic.

Sometimes no matter how hard you train, prepare and equip yourself the odds will catch up with you.

I carry a .40 caliber only because my department won’t let me carry anything but…

If it were up to me I’d have a SIG 226 9mm at my side.
 
I have read extensively and seen a lot of documentary footage on the Miami Dade shootout. What got me interested was during a training day at my dept. I was in waiting for my turn in the scenario room. They had the Miami Dade shootout documentary on the T.V. Soon I couldn't get enough of the thing.

Lessons learned.

1.) Tactics will save your life a heck of a lot better than dumb luck. Being FBI does not mean you are bullet proof.

2.) Don't leave a shotgun in the floor board in favor of your .38 special or 9mm.

3.) Bad guys don't always drop, just because you hit them in a vital area. Keep shooting.

4.) The 9mm 115 gr. hollow point did not get adequate penetration to hit the heart after going through Platt's arm and into the chest cavity, therefore a heavier 124 gr. to 147 gr. bullet would have been better ideally. Penetration is more important than expansion.

5.) 5 guys with handguns should be very cautious when approaching a lone gunman with a mini-14.

After reading a lot about this I have found the following ballistic research load recommendations to be sound, erroring on the side of being conservative: (Note: these are ammo labs recommended loadings)

9mm-
Federal 135gr LE9T5
Remington 147gr Golden Saber
Speer Gold Dot 124gr+P
Winchester Ranger 127gr +P+ RA9TA
Winchester Ranger 147gr RA9T

.40S&W-
Federal 180gr LE40T1
Remington 165gr Golden Saber BJHP
Speer 180gr Gold Dot
Winchester Ranger 165gr RA40TA
Winchester Ranger 165gr RA401P
Winchester Ranger 180gr RA40T

.357 Sig-
Speer 125gr Gold Dot
Winchester Ranger 125gr RA357T

.45acp-
Corbon 230gr+P jhp
Federal 230gr LE45T1+P
Remington 230gr Golden Saber BJHP
Speer 230gr Gold Dot
Winchester Ranger 230gr RA45T
Winchester Ranger 230gr RA45TP +P

The recommendations were based on rounds that could:

1. Expand reliably
2. Penetrate at least 13 inches of ballistic gel while
3. retaining a predetermined % of their bullet weight

I would also recommend the Hydrashock, since what kept this round from being added was the post would occasionally bend causing the bullet to "yaw" or break off, causing the weight to be reduced too much. I find nothing to sneeze at on the 147 gr. 9mm Federal Hydrashock.

I recommend reading Special Agent Urey Patrick's "Paper on FBI Hand Gun Wounding "

Firearms Tactical Institute: Handgun Wounding Factors. Can't remember if these are the same paper or not. Either way, read it twice. ;)

also "Reality of the Street? A Practical Analysis of Offender Gunshot Wound Reaction for Law Enforcement"
By Shawn Dodson
 
The Miami shootout was certainly an instructive case. What I got out of it is that penetration is important - you must be able to shatter ribs, arms, skulls, etc. with a round in order to inflict enough damage to the CNS for an instant stop, or to the CPS for a gradual stop. Since penetration is so vitally important, it's best to use patrol rifles or shotguns when going up against anybody who has a long gun of their own. Failing that, use powerful ammunition or work on your shot placement. The account in "Unintended Consequences" hints at several instances of human error that could have played a role. Also key is having your sidearms properly secured - no excuse for this, IMHO; if it isn't in a holster, it should be stowed away.
 
As informative as this case is, why do we have to dig it up so much?
it has been debated to death, and we've pretty much gotten all the info out of it we can.

*Valley Girl Voice* This is, like, soooooo 1986!
 
Lessons learned:

#1 Don't do stupid stuff. Going against BG known to carry and use rifles when you don't have one is dumb.
#2 Keep your weapon on your body, leaving it on the car seat to go hither and yon is dumb
#3 Partner with people you can trust to stay on the job. Don't know if that part of the story was true or not but if so those two be fired and then shot.
#4 Wear the body armor
#5 Shot placement, shot placement, shot placement

Sam
 
I have a customer who is an FBI desk jockey. She and every other agent must qualify 4 times a year with their sidearms. I'm not sure if this is new or not, but it sure seems like a whole lot of qualifications per year. I think that most police departments only do it once a year or less.
 
I don't think you can say that the Miami shootout showed any deficiences in a particular caliber. The 9mm didn't do the job, but the even smaller .223 sure did, didn't it?
 
What I took away from it, after the accounts I read, was: Having a plan is better than winging it.
 
"Bring a friggin rifle ya dumbass feds ya."

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt in that you probably didn't intentionally mean to be disrespectful to those SA's involved in this shootout or the ones who died.

But you sure sound like it.
 
The following is just MY OBSERVATIONS of the Miami Shootout...I am NOT an expert witness on wound ballistics, nor am I am expert ranger ninja/Seal...I am simply a humble show cobler that has been shot at (former line of work) and "alledgedly" shot back (former line of work)...

Observations are not in any order btw..

1...Certain bad guys not only have the WILL to fight back, they also have the ability and training to feed you and your men your breakfast...If you think you need 5 men to get the job done bring 20

2...Platt was shot inna way that SHOULD have killed him right then...It did not, from that moment on the caliber was irrelevant...though the shot that hit Platt was prolly a one inna million and the agent that took the shot (Jerry Dove r.i.p) was a better shot under stress than alot of us are on the range, it just didnt work

3...Other dude (Matix) was shot in the head in the opening seconds of the gun battle...HE SHOULD HAVE BEEN D.R.T...he was not! (Mireles (sp?) later shot him as he cowered, dieing in the car)...Had he been able to fight it would have prolly been an even bigger mess than it turned out to be...

4...Good men can have a bad day..Bad guys can have a good day...just a matter of luck, karma or whatever

5...Calling Miami a "bullet failure" simply miscounts the skill and tenacity of Platt...This is a grevious error on anyones part IMO...Dude was a "dead man walking" after soaking up pistol and buckshot wounds, yet he was able to kill 2 TRAINED FBI agents and wound several others...And remember, they were shooting HIM while he was busy shooting THEM...Show him anger and hate , and call him a murderer all ya wish...Dude was tough and good with his weapons and had the WILL to win and accomplish his objective and that is more or less the bottom line to me, on "bullet failure"...

6...Complaining that "they couldnt shoot" is stupidity...Just so happens one of the bad guys was a good shot as well...

Courages men of nerve and skill were killed, crippled and wounded that day...1 of them just happened to be on the wrong side and thinking of Platt as a mindless killer or a monster, simply discounts that there are men on the wrong side of the law that have the training and skill to go along with the WILL to send you home to momma in a cardboard box if you get in there way...
 
One of the things that always bothered me from reading the accounts of what happened was the tactics of some of the agents with revolvers. To eliminate cleaning up after range time the agents began emptying fired casings into their pockets. After the shootout they found one of the dead agents with empty revovler casings in his pocket! It still amazes me that during the heat of battle this poor fella stopped to put the casings in his pocket. That really drives home the saying "you fight like you train". What a damn shame.
 
As a general rule, bad guys don't train much or often. However, one thing clear from Miami and from some other similar events is that when the bad guys are trained, practiced, and competent, good guys get hurt and killed. Also when this happens, good guys come up with a lot of excuses for how and why their butts got kicked. Both in Miami and in North Hollywood, the good guys claimed to be outgunned. In Miami, the FBI had a 4:1 advantage and had the bad guys flanked. In North Hollywood, it was something like 25:1 advantage of shooters, 150+:1 for all officers involved in various capacities to handle the situation, plus the robbers were flanked and covered on all sides and even in the air.

So consider these lessons 1a and 1b.

Lesson 2, even trained shooters can miss at extremely close range, both bad guys and good guys.

Lesson 3, It isn't about killing bad guys, but about surviving the fight. As one of the agents said, Platt and Matix were dying, only they weren't dying fast enough. Platt did a lot of damage and killed at least two officers AFTER being mortally wounded.

Lesson 4, when using team tactics, everyone in your group should not be reloading at the same time, as happened when the agents were ambushed behind their car while reloading.

Lesson 5, bad guys do not always operate in manners that are good of form, style, tactics, etc. They may do things that seem stupid or completely unreasonable. As such, you can't count on bad guys to behave in particular manners. The FBI did not expect Platt to advance on their position because that isn't what normal sorts of bad guys do.

I missed the FBI putting spent cases in their pockets, knowledgegreen. I thought that was the CHP murders in California back in the 70s.
 
Big lesson from Miami....

If you are going after someone who is ready to kill you,

be ready to kill them.

I've seen (and I bet the Federalist Weasel has too) information about the Miami shootout not available to the general public. (No real gunfighting secrets, just some private reflections of the participants are what is considered 'confidential'.)

The biggest problem of the FBI agents: they were going out to conduct a surveillance and possible arrest.

Platt and Matix were prepared to kill anyone and everyone in their way.

That made a lot of difference. When the FBI had men like Melvin Purvis, "Jelly" Brice and other men akin to the Texas Ranger's Frank Hamer, not as many agents were killed in gunfights. But, we now live in a more 'civilized' society.

Well, mostly.

By the way, the first shot that hit Platt killed him (or would have). The wound tore the tops off both lungs; the wound was non-survivable. However, it took far too long for him to die. Would another round served better? Hard to tell. But I've got a nickel says a couple more hits in the main body would have slowed him up a bit more. The official report says the fight was ended by Special Agent Morales (I think) and his trusty .38 Special. So much for super calibers...
 
This is ofcourse with hindsight, and it being 20/20. Also, I am not a LEO, a soldier, or anything else that matters, just someone on the internet. Furthermore, I can only say the following after reading what is available on the internet, I don't have access to more detailed info than that.

Lessons Learned:

1. Secure what you need. Officers dropped their pistols, lost their glasses, and were negativly affected by the initial crash. This meant fewer rounds heading downrange in the beginning.

2. Be prepared for a fight.

3. There is no such thing as enough ammo, unless you are drowning or on fire.

4. Sometimes a dead man can continue to fight.

5. Determination can be the determining factor in a fight.

6. Rifles and shotguns are superior to pistols. Shotguns were left behind in favor or snub nosed pistols.

7. Sometimes the stars all align against you, and no matter what you do, you are screwed.

I think #7 is the most pertinent in this case.

I.G.B.
 
Lessons learned.
A handgun is a defensive weapon and is best used to fight your way to a real gun.
Shot placement is key, use the biggest gun you can handle, both is caliber and carry, a wonder 9 with a bucket full of bullets doesn't do you any good if you can't hit your target. You can't miss fast enough.
Know your enemy and don't underestimate them. The intelligence on the two robbers was that they were armed with long guns and were willing to use them.
If possible pick a location to your advantage, don't let yourself get led into a corner with no escape route.
Sometimes it is better to get out of Dodge and come back to fight another day.
Just because you are hit don't quit fighting, that is when you should fight all the harder, because then your life does depend on it.
Stay in the fight until your enemy is confirmed dead. Lots of blood means just that you see lots of blood and nothing more.

As a side note I don't know of any police agency that requires its officers to qualify less than twice a year, and most have gone to four times a year if for nothing else the libality issues of not.
 
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