Miami Shootout: Caliber & Practice Lacking?

[Mad Magyar]

After finally reading an entire FBI account of this shootout in 1986, including autopsy report, guns/ammo used, shots fired, shooting diagrams, etc; I was reminded of some of the constant recollections of Jeff Cooper & Massad Ayoob.
Mr. Cooper uses this incident when taking jabs at .38’s & 9’s for personal defense. When you read the report, you can see where he’s coming from. Imagine the agents having .357 Magnums, but shooting .38+P ammo. The BG’s: same weapon, but with magnum loads. Mr. Cooper believes the outcome would have been different with his favorite .45.
Mr. Ayoob seems to always take a jab at LEO’s, (Feds included) shooting abilities compared to the general population due to their lack of seriousness and practice. The number of shots taken by other agents with their 9mm’s left a lot to be desired in terms of accuracy & stopping power.
The points of view by both of these men are quite evident in the Miami Shootout of 1986. Next time you run into a “caliber war” on these gun forums, think about Cooper & Ayoob. I did…

 

[dfariswheel]

It seems the real failure in Miami was in training and adhering to proper procedure.

It's easy to Monday Morning Quarterback these things, but caliber and shooting skills were only peripheral contributing factors.

The real failure was the agents rather careless approach to the incident.

Two members were FBI SWAT Team members, and had access to heavy weapons and body armor.

All the agents had access to at least standard body armor, and there were better weapons available at the office.

They choose to confront some really BAD dudes with small revolvers in several cases, and do so in an uncontrolled "rolling stop" on a public street, all without first calling in local police for help.

Bottom line is, you don't face known shooters with a 2" .38 S&W revolver when there were plenty of shotguns and rifles there at the office for use.

Several agents foolishly laid their pistols on the car seat so they could "get to it faster".
One agent spent the fight crawling around his car's floor looking for his gun after the crash caused it to slide off the seat, and another spent the fight blind because he lost his glasses.

Bottom line was, had the agents observed procedure and training, and been more aware of tactics, the caliber and shooting skills probably wouldn't have been an issue.

When you take care to arm yourself with the best weapons, have local police support, and just overwhelm the bad guys with big guns and plenty of people, things may turn ugly, but you usually don't wind up with a bloodbath of agents.

On the other hand, when you basically whistle up a posse with whatever daily carry pistols they happen to have, and just "play it by ear", bad things DO happen.

I can assure you, that were I called upon to go out looking for nightmares like these two people, I certainly would NOT take my 2" .38 or my compact 9mm pistol and walk right by an arms locker full of shotguns, rifles, and body armor.

 

[Cousin Mike]

+1

Everything I have read about the Miami shootout was more revolved around caliber, but one thing I read that was interesting did refer to the tactics of the agents. I'm repeating all of this somewhat tounge-in-cheek, but some articles I read by Syd and some others on www.sightm1911.com brought into play the level of training these officers had. Basically saying that in a confrontation like this, you don't rise to the occasion, you revert to your level of training.

One of the officers, according to the article, after emptying his revolver into the BG, dumped his casings into his hand and put them in his pocket - the exact same way he had been taught on the firing range. Had they taken advantage of better weapons, or even speedloaders, the outcome might have been very different. The author also stated that had the officer in question stood still while shooting and reloading, as if he were at a firing range. He also said as a result of the shootout and it's outcome, the FBI and local departments changed many aspects of their training procedures.

 

[P95Carry]

I saw some footage recently of the N Hollywood shootout - Philips had almost full body armor and obviously took multiple (low power) hits while standing spraying his AK. But presumably no one could make a head shot (which could even at longer ranges have been useful).

What that said to me - like in a way with the Platt/Matix episode - is that immediate availability of M16's for instance could have achieved a killing head shot at an early stage. Long gun availability is essential.

 

[RyanM]

The marksmanship of the agents involved was actually pretty amazing. They got in some very solid hits, but Platt just didn't want to die. If they'd been using .45s instead of 9mms, the result would have been identical, since they would've been issued 185 grain Silvertips, which do just as poorly as 115 grain ones.

If their 9mms had been loaded with FMJ instead, there would have been no serious injuries on the FBI's side, Platt would've been DRT, and Matix would have either died or surrendered.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs7.htm

Conclusion: Caliber will not make up for poor shot placement. But lack of penetration can definitely negate excellent shot placement.

 

[Cosmoline]

Ayboob and Cooper are both smoking from the same pipe! The agents who died were both hit with bullets from the Mini-14. The agents went to a rifle fight with handguns and actually fared a lot better than might have been expected. Had more of the bad guys been armed with rifles and if they'd had a better position all of the agents could have been killed. I don't care if they had .38 Specials, .45's, or .454 Casulls, it was a bad idea not to have long guns when trying to take down armed bank robbers. Far too many American shooting experts overestimate the power and utility of a handgun.

DO NOT BRING A HANDGUN TO A RIFLE FIGHT!!!!

They choose to confront some really BAD dudes with small revolvers in several cases, and do so in an uncontrolled "rolling stop" on a public street, all without first calling in local police for help.

Bottom line is, you don't face known shooters with a 2" .38 S&W revolver when there were plenty of shotguns and rifles there at the office for use.

Exactly.

Seriously injured by .223 gunshot wounds to the right hand and neck
Edmundo Mireles Seriously injured by a .223 gunshot wound to the left forearm.
Gilbert Orrantia Injured by shrapnel and debris produced by a .223 bullet near miss.
John Hanlon Seriously injured by .223 gunshot wounds to the right hand and groin.
Benjamin Grogan, 53 Killed by a .223 gunshot wound to the chest.
Gerald Dove, 30 Killed by two .223 gunshot wounds to the head.

RES IPSA LOQUITUR, as they say. A better 9mm bullet or .357's instead of .38's would have done jack. You go up against even a little .223 carbine armed with handguns and you should count yourself lucky to be alive. It was astonishingly stupid.

 

[RyanM]

In this one instance, FMJs would have stopped Platt in his tracks before he got off a single shot from his .223. Any bullet that penetrates according to the FBI's current standards, really. 9mm 115 gr +P+ Silvertips penetrate only 9-10".

As Platt crawled through the passenger side window, one of Dove’s 9mm bullets hit his right upper arm, just above the inside crook of the elbow. According to Dr. Anderson, the bullet passed under the bone, through the deltoid, triceps and teres major muscles, and severed the brachial arteries and veins. The bullet exited the inner side of his upper arm near the armpit, penetrated his chest between the fifth and sixth ribs, and passed almost completely through the right lung before stopping. The bullet came to a rest about an inch short of penetrating the wall of the heart.

At that point, Platt had the Mini-14 slung across his shoulder, and was holding a .357. At that point in the fight, the only injuries to FBI officers were birdshot injuries to one officer's forehead and another's back, and several fragment injuries from .223 ricochets. Matix was unconscious, having been hit in the face with a 9mm, which fractured the base of his cranium and bruised his brain, but didn't quite penetrate.

It should probably be noted that that bullet is actually the one that killed Platt, even though it stopped short of the heart. It messed up some major arteries in his right lung, and he bled to death from it. Didn't work fast enough, though...

 

[Cosmoline]

Even a 9mm FMJ going through his heart would not necessarily have killed him fast enough, though. If the bullet hits when the heart is expanding on that side, the resulting blood loss may not lead to shock for another minute or more. It's a thin reed to rest on--very thin. A far better strategy would have been to go in with at least AR-15's. A handgun is ONLY A DEFENSIVE ARM. It has no business being used offensively against well-armed bandits.

 

[AndrewM]

DO NOT BRING A HANDGUN TO A RIFLE FIGHT!!!!

That really sums it up.

Plus the lack of good training to remedy some of the issues mentioned (like laying a gun on a seat, then doing evasive driving/crashing).

Andrew

 

[1557]

Just to echo what everyone else said. That fiasco had nothing whatsoever to do with caliber,but turned into a slaughter due to bad tactics and handguns against long guns.Also, Mattix and Platt were extremely tough combat veterans,and were fearless with a strong will to win.And, they almost did.
I carry a 45 caliber pistol quite often,but I am under no illusions that it is a death ray.I also use 9mm. I use them all with confidence.

 

[Oldtimer]

TACTICS! Sad to say, but the "felony pull-over" technique that the FBI used was doomed to failure.
The agents KNEW what they were up against, yet failed to notify the local police agency of the situation BEFORE the vehicle pursuit and "pull-over" procedures were put into action. They also (from several sources) acted prematurely, without much regard to their surroundings (residential area). NO HELICOPTER! The FBI did, in fact, have "air support" that they could have requested.

CALIBER? Well, that boiled down to being a moot problem, for it was a RIFLE vs. HANDGUN shoot-out, and the FBI agents COULD have armed themselves with rifles, but didn't. At least one shotgun was deployed, but a shotgun is NOT a rifle.

The FBI had an "attitude" problem back then, in my opinion, and the opinion of many others that have researched and studied the Miami shoot-out. The had the "Untouchables" attitude..."We are the invincible FBI!" (This attitude, by the way, was promoted GREATLY by former director J. Edgar Hoover. The FBI was "better" than the "local yokel" police, in Hoover's mind.)

I have had numerous dealings with the FBI in the past. I won't bore you with the details, other than to explain this: I had a "rookie" officer that quit before he completed his "probationery" period as a new officer. He quit because he had been accepted by the FBI. I ran into him about 2 years later, when he was once again a "rookie" on my department (LAPD). He had completed the FBI academy, then went to his first field assignment as an agent. After less than one year as a field agent, he quit the FBI. Why? His response was, "Because their TACTICS suck!" He had worked with a "veteran" FBI agent who (qoute) "Didn't know SQUAT about the basics of tactics!"

The FBI learned a LOT from the Miami shoot-out. Unfortunately, it cost them dearly!

 

[VirgilCaine]

One question--was any of the body armor rifle-class armor?

 

[Borachon]

I'd blame arrogence and a lack of preparation.

Arrogence because 6 agents thought they could take on 2 men by themselves. Nowhere do I see it mentioned that the agents called in local authorities to help them with "the collar". They could have had 30 officers there in five minutes in a place like Miami.

Lack of preparation because even though the agents KNEW what sort of firepower these guys had used in the past during bank robberies, they still elected to go up against them with pistols and one shotgun. They were riding around Miami with the express purpose of finding these guys. They should have imagined what it would be like if they ever caught them. More shotguns at a minimum. But most importantly, a way to call down lots of backup. If they didn't want locals to get the credit, then have a fast response FBI team waiting to move.

It's never said, but I suspect the agents wanted the credit and took risks they shouldn't have. And it got some of them killed.

 

[MCgunner]

Mr. Ayoob seems to always take a jab at LEO’s, (Feds included) shooting abilities compared to the general population due to their lack of seriousness and practice.

If they're anything like the locals around here, I can certainly see why. I tend to read Ayoob's stuff with a little more respect than Cooper, who seems to me to be on an agenda. Worse yet is Taylor and his "power factors" contrived of momentum calculations. I've never read such IDIOTIC drivel in all my life! Did the guy pass highschool algebra? I doubt it. Differential equations would kick his butt. His is just a clear case of trying to fit something he made up to prove an agenda, the big bullet, low velocity agenda. At least Cooper is more straight forward and tries to use just simple horse sense, most of which I don't agree with, but hey, it's a free country and he helped fight for it. But, this out here is the real world of concealed carry. We can't all carry a .50 AE all the time. If we could, I'd head out the door with a 12 gauge slung over an arm.

Far as law enforcement calibers, Mr. Cooper needs to realize we're in the 21st century now and not all cops are 200 lbs and 6' 4". Some have small hands, don't come from a shooting or military background. Some are petite women, some are great thinkers, just a little gun shy. It's a PC world, rife with hiring quotas. Not everyone is going to be able to handle a .45 or a 10mm (as the FBI found out) and the single action is NOT for general use IMHO for safety reasons. We have enough Barney Fife types shooting people accidently as it is.

Most law enforcement around here carries .40 S&W now days. It's a good caliber for law enforcement IMHO. Texas DPS carries the .357 Sig, also a good caliber. The world is full of effective calibers that just need cops with skills to deploy them and proper tactics to go along with it.

 

[CAS700850]

I had the privilege of attending a lecture by Special Agent Morales, the FBI agent who ended the shootout with a SMith and Wesson revolver (a 686 if I remember correctly), and six 158 gran +p LSWHPs, despite being pretty seriously wounded in his left arm. Hopefully not doing his lecture any disservice, it was a combination of issues that seemed to cause the problem to get out of hand. No one single issue caused this nightmare.

First, bad tactics on the stop. 'Nough said about that already.

Second, bad tactics with the lack of coordination with other agencies. "nough said.

Third, some back weapons handling by some of the agents. Several did draw their primary weapons and lay them on the seats, etc., in anticipation of the stop. When the stop involved violent vehicle crashing, several of these agents lost their primary weapons, and ended up fighting with back-up revolvers. Murphy's Law at its finest. Along these same lines, the agent considered the best pistol shot in the group lost his glasses during the crash, and ended up fighting with blurred vision. Murphy's Law strikes again.

The lack of training did not involve a lack of marksmanship. The marksmanship demonstrated at some points in the fight was excellent. One agent fired a shotgun from prone, over the body of a second agent, and scored hits on the legs of Platt. In combat conditions, this is excellent combat shooting. At the same time, we have to recall that this was not an open range situation. this was a disaster occurring in the middle of a bunch of crashed cars. From Morales' account, it was confusing as Hell, not knowing who was firing from where. Target identification was difficult, as everyone was plainclothes. Several agents did use cover, to good effect. Body armor was highly lacking, but also remember this was the 1980's before body armor became as popular as it is now. Long guns were present in the form of shotguns, but we're talking about close-range battle around crashed cars. In the mid-1980's, they wouldn't have had the nice M-4's that we know and love.

Courage was present by the truckload. Agents fought with their back-up guns. Agents fought on when injured. One Agent fought on virtually blind due to the loss of his glasses. Morales ended the whole thing by drawing his Smith, breaking cover, charging Mattix and Platt, and emptying his revolver into the two of them.

For this Monday Morning Quarterback, I can say that this situation was due to a failure to plan for the worst case scenario, not due to the weapons chosen. Of course, in my world, planning for the worst case scenario means calling out a SWAT Team armed with heavy firpower...but that's just me.

 

[Borachon]

Courage was present by the truckload.

I guess you could say that about the criminals as well. At one point, wasn't Platt charging forward toward the agents? Directly into their fire I believe. I think he'd been trained in the military to carry the fight to the enemy in this manner.

 

[MCgunner]

I guess you could say that about the criminals as well. At one point, wasn't Platt charging forward toward the agents? Directly into their fire I believe. I think he'd been trained in the military to carry the fight to the enemy in this manner.

Is there a difference in a man fighting for his life and his duty, who has a family to live for, and a maniac with a suicide wish and nothing to live for who realizes he's been caught up with?

But, I've often said that about politicians who call suicide bombers "cowards". All I can think if is if I was wearing that belt, 76 virgins or no, I couldn't press the button. Then again, I'm not a maniacal, brain washed follower of Mohamed, either.

 

[Dienekes]

Lousy tactics, overconfidence. I attended a briefing on it by one of after-action investigators and it was pretty sobering. Especially since clusters like that are not all that unusual and it is only by the grace of God more raids and arrests don't go bad. The FBI has a mindset that criminals can't surrender fast enough when they find out who they are up against. In most cases, maybe so and that's just fine. This was the exception and they were totally unprepared for what they got. (The Greeks call it hubris.)

As I recall one of the two BGs--I think Mattis--did very little in the fight and after the first few rounds was basically a nonparticipant. So virtually all the fighting was done by only one man.

As someone said, that one man was not about to quit that day. And that can be hell on square wheels.

Something to keep in mind.

 

[walking arsenal]

Worse yet is Taylor and his "power factors" contrived of momentum calculations.

I don't believe i'm familiar with that theory. Could someone please expand on it and why it's a bad theory?

 

[BullfrogKen]

The FBI had been searching for these guys for weeks. It was a long shot that simply by driving around town, they'd come across their path. They knew it, and their preparations reflected that attitude. The agents who had body armor with them, had it in the back seat. Shotguns were available but locked away in the trunk. It was simply a detail that none of them expected would really produce any results. It hadn't for weeks, what made that day any more special than the others. . .

Its not uncommon for anyone to fall victim to past expectations. They were lax that day. And they paid the price for it. Being outgunned may have given the advantage to their opponent, but the complacency that seeps into the daily grind of their work was what got them into trouble. If anything, that is the lesson.

 

[Crosshair]

Oldtimer

Was that story from before or after the 86 shootout? Just want to know.

 

[Borachon]

I'm not a maniacal, brain washed follower of Mohamed, either.

I don't know if that matters that much.
We can find plenty of instances in our own history of the United States when men sacrificed themselves.

Charging that machine gun nest to save your buddies.
Throwing yourself on that grenade
Etc.

I'm not entirely convinced that suicide bombers are brain washed. They are really pissed off though. They got a hate going so hard they are willing to kill themselves to kill their enemies.

Even in a religion like Islam though, it's hard to find a lot of people ready to throw their lives away. Suicide bombers are the minority. Lucky for us.

Platt reminds me of those guys at the North Hollywood Shootout. He just wasn't going to go to jail and he was well-armed enough to think he could change the outcome. He's was just one of those stubborn people you get in societies every once in awhile. Hard headed.

Is there a difference in a man fighting for his life and his duty, who has a family to live for, and a maniac with a suicide wish and nothing to live for who realizes he's been caught up with?

To an outside observer, I'd say no. Anything that looks like contempt for imminent death appears like insanity to those watching. Platt was caught in a desparate situation. He didn't want to go to jail more than he wanted to live. Of course I imagine he never thought he was going to die. He thought he'd shoot them and get away. He had to have thought that.

Of course, on the otherside, I don't think the FBI thought these guys were going to resist. And if they did, the FBI probably figured they'd grease them in 2 seconds.

 

[Cosmoline]

They got a hate going so hard they are willing to kill themselves to kill their enemies.

Who? An unarmed Arab wedding party? That makes a whole lot of sense.

As far as the Miami shootout, one man with a Mini-14 killed two officers and downed several others in a matter of seconds. If his comrades had also been armed with long guns and fought back aggressively, THEY MIGHT HAVE WON THE FIGHT. It was by no means a sure thing in the FBI's favor. That's a pretty good reason to lay it on the line.

 

[MrChicken]

If i remember this correctly, one agent had 5 or 6 shots at less than 20 feet when P&M were still in the car. I think it was the agent that lost his glasses. better shooting would have stopped it right there.
A Shotgun instead of his revolver probably would've ended it right then, also.

 

[CAnnoneer]

For an exhaustive study of the forensic evidence of the Miami shootout, please refer to the famous monograph by Dr William French Anderson. It is scheduled to be republished by Paladin Press shortly. It also includes a few words from LEOs who actually were there.

.45 would lose to a Mini-14 just as badly as any other common handgun. Get over it.