lets discuss 7.62 NATO semi auto platforms.

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theflatlander

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To start out I have never owned many semi auto platform rifles. I have had auto loading .22's and I have one SKS. Everything else has been a pump or a bolt action.

I think most people in my shoes are very budget minded when looking at rifles and cant justify spending over a $1000.00 to $1500.00 on a rifle and still put descent glass on top of it. This is what happened the last time and kept me from buying a descent semi auto 7.62 platform. Their is something always better that some body suggests and discourages me and some people from buying a rifle in the first place.

I think for a newbie like me when it comes to semi auto platform rifles going through and trying every rifle until you find one you like cost's a lot of money unless you have a range that has the availability to rent from. In this case I don't and I know some of you have had experience with all the different platforms of the 7.62 semi autos and have chosen what you like best.

1. The rifle has to be $1500.00 or less.

2. The rifle has to to handle both metal cased surplus and hand loaded ammo.

3. The rifle will shoot 2 moa or less at 100 yards. Hopefully much less. I just dont want to rule out all the options right away.

4. The rifle has to reliable enough to be used as a MBR.

5. Spare parts and mags should be obtainable easily and at a reasonable cost.

I'm just going to leave this with the five main goals at this time. If you think of something that is very important I am not considering please let me know and I will edit the topic.

So with the five main goals what brand, and model of rifle would you chose and why?

Thanks for your advice and opinions in advance.
 
From the research I have already done myself It was a toss up between a ptr91 and a AR type .7.62 semi auto. As of right now I am leaning toward a armalite or a RRA 7.62 platform.

The biggest sellers for me is the availability of after market parts and that they use some ar 15 parts. The accuracy I have seen and heard of people getting is Also a plus. Right now the Armalite is getting the nod due two the odd type barrel nut the RRA uses. Hard to switch over to another caliber unless using another RRA barrel.

The things that have turned my off about the PTR is I heard they are very un natural to shoot without switching the stock meaning the ergonomics suck, the factory trigger sucks, and your lucky if you get less than 2moa at 100 yards. Other than that they are the most reliable platform ranking right with a FAL.
 
Can't speak for the other manufacturers but have and very much like an Armalite that has been somewhat customized for match shooting. Never a problem with the rifle, always reliable and delivers better accuracy than I can shoot. Had it over 10 years now.

Ron
 
I just went through this dilemma and after all my research I purchased an Armalite AR-10. Armalite guarantees their rifle's accuracy, but the guaranteed numbers are based on using less than great ammo. With great ammo these rifles are more accurate than Armalites guaranteed accuracy. For example, the most inaccurate of the bunch, the regular carbine, can shoot 1 MOA and most people seem capable of getting ~0.5" MOA with the T models.

I believe Armalite's guaranteed accuracy is:
'T' model Rifles & Carbines: 1 MOA
Regular Rifle: 1.5 to 2 MOA
Regular Carbine: 2 to 2.5 MOA
 
Ignition Override said:
Doesn't brass become quite stressed when ejected from most semi-auto .308s/NATO 7.62 rifles, or just from HK-91s, Cetmes without a buffer?
Click to expand...
Not in my observation. I shoot 7.62 X 51 NATO in my AR 10 as well as a M1A I have and neither really deforms the brass on ejection aside from minor dings. I just clean it, resize it and reload it without a problem.

Ron
 
Based on the criteria you listed, I'd say PTR91.

AR10's are nice but are not standardized so part swapping requires reading fine print and research, not a deal breaker but something to consider.

FALs seem to be harder to come by these days. DSA used to have STG58s for decent prices around $1100 but I haven't been able to find them on their site lately (someone correct me if I'm doing it wrong).

M1As are nice as well but getting towards the upper threshold of your budget.
 
Based on the criteria you listed, I'd say PTR91.

AR10's are nice but are not standardized so part swapping requires reading fine print and research, not a deal breaker but something to consider.

FALs seem to be harder to come by these days. DSA used to have STG58s for decent prices around $1100 but I haven't been able to find them on their site lately (someone correct me if I'm doing it wrong).

M1As are nice as well but getting towards the upper threshold of your budget

This was my experiance when I was researching the subject a couple of years ago.
I took a rifle I was less than happy with and a couple of hundred dollars and got the M1A and I am very happy with it. It is an expensive gun when yu start figuring magazines, aftermarket part and tweeking it a bit, it's more like owning a 70's muscle car, you never stop improving it and when it runs it makes you SMILE.
 
There was a M1a in a rogue stock for sale on Armslist at $1200 the other day. It was listed from KY Didn't check on it. Just a thought. The M1a has the most robust and load forgiving action of all the MBRs I have tested. HK/CTME design has always been hard on brass in the guns I've shot. Military and civilian upgrade parts are still quite common for M14/M1a rifles.

just my 2c
 
This topic has been well-discussed here.

I'll summarize by saying that the most common platforms are the PTR91, AR10, M1A, and FAL.

I'm assuming you want a battle rifle for defense and not hunting? These weapons were all basically designed to be battle accurate with open sights out to hundreds of yards. Frankly, you'd be much better off getting a $500 designated marksman rifle with a $300 scope if you're looking to put rounds out to 1000 yards with any precision.

A battle rifle is just that - minute of man at hundreds of yards. I'd personally skip the scope on a battle rifle and too cumbersome and not much use...

I own examples of the PTR91, FAL, and M1A. I own and have trained extensively on the M4/AR15 which shares the design with the AR10.

Of these, the top rankings are tied between the FAL and the M1A. These are simply outstanding weapons. The nod probably goes to the M1A for accuracy and the FAL for ergonomics. You can scope either system with after market mounts. Mags for both are relatively available and affordable. The FAL is more of a traditional battle rifle whereas the M1A is more of a traditional semi-auto rifle. The FAL design and ergonomics make my heart simply swoon. I speak highly of both.

I don't care much for the PTR91. The only real advantage I see are currently dirt cheap magazines. I bought over 200 mags for $1 each! The PTR91 is a reliable weapon with fair accuracy. I don't care for the ergonomics of the selector switch, magazine release or the charging handle. And the stock and forearm that come with them are cheap and there's another few hundred $ that need to immediately be invested to replace them.

The AR10 is a design similar to the AR15, which fouls the chamber with dirty gases, which I view as a design flaw in the weapon. I've never fired the AR10. But I expect it would be accurate and the easiest of the group to modify/scope. That said, I would pick the AR10 3rd in the group behind the M1A and FAL.

Final note - Recommend avoiding the CETME and other less worthy clones of these rifles.
 
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Of course I disagree with Leadcounsel on the PTR91. It is the best value of that which is available right now. I do agree that you will probably wish to trade out the for end, as the aluminum one that comes with it seems like it would not dissipate heat very well. Get a paddle mag release and an ambi safety, and you are off to the races! I also disagree on the accuracy potential of this rifle, or that you should avoid scopes. I get 1" with the irons on mine at 100 yards, and have shot prairie dogs on the run at over 400 yards with it, using the FeroZ24 scope. I have owned the FAL (Original FN G1 pre dealer sample) a M14, and the G3. The latter is by far the most accurate of the bunch. I think it is the free floated barrel which does this.

The plethora of parts and accessories at cheap prices also makes it attractive. I would rank the FAL dead last of the 3, G3, G1 or M14. M14 is a great rifle, only it is expensive to accurize and parts and accessories are also expensive. It is a wonderful rifle to shoot, however.

Get what speaks to you, and enjoy your purchase.
 
Wouldn't the requirement for steel-cased ammo exclude the AR-type? My vote goes to the FAL.

303tom, I think his 5th requirement would eliminate your suggestion.
 
I've been pretty happy with FN's FNAR. Excellent accuracy and build. Some will complain about mag cost, but they are also built to last.
 
Second the FNAR:
Pros:
1.) <1MOA stock from the factory
2.) Lots 'o Rails for Lots 'o Stuff
3.) 20, 10, and 5 round detachable mags built like tanks (all heavy steel except follower. Armored floorplate)
4.) Last round bolt hold-open
5.) Heavy and light barrels (get the heavy, though)
6.) Highly adjustable pistol grip stock (cant/drop, comb height, LOP)
7.) Badass tacticool styling
8.) Civilian-proven BAR short-stroke piston action runs w/o detail cleaning for 1000 rounds (usually more)
9.) <1000$ for the rifle (sometimes significantly less)

Cons:
1.) No "military cred/rep," only 60+ years of highly reliable use by thousands of hunters
2.) Many shooters don't like pistol grips (but seem to love all the military 308 patterns:scrutiny:)
3.) Magazines are ~40$ a pop, so no hoarding the 100+ you'll totally need
4.) Parts won't be lying in the streets after the AWB or Apocalypse (whichever comes first)
5.) It's heavy, unlike featherweight FALs and PTR91s (and AR10s, which float)
6.) Less freedom to change out stocks (though a Shorttrak Sporter stock can be made to fit, though) to build the gun you actually wanted
7.) No iron sights as backup for the +12X power scope to clear rooms with
8.) No parts upgradeability (sp?) unlike M1As, PTRs, FALs, etc., which poison your wallet long after the bite
9.) More expensive than a .308 Saiga, even though "mine can do sub-MOA all day long"

Heavy on the satire, yes, but I've heard all these criticisms leveled at the FNAR even though the severity of these issues is benign if not less. I chalk the naysaying up to a combination of it having a "military" appearance, the letters "AR" in the name, and not deriving its design from a service arm. If you really think you need a "hi-cap" accurate .308 Semi-auto, there isn't much of a better deal. I am thoroughly pleased with mine.

If you want a highly configurable project gun with which to tinker, military credentials, or something even more accurate, you'd be best served with the M1A, PTR/FAL, and AR, respectively. If you need to keep it well under 1000$, the PTR, Saiga, and MAS conversions are your best bet. There are a few more platforms out there that fit these catagories as well, but they're even less common than the MAS 308 conversions. Have fun with whatever you choose:)

TCB
 
174BC01E-orig.gif

Another option for the mix....converted Saiga. I was getting 2MOA with Cavim ball, no complaints there. It will digest just about any ammo ( steel case no problem ).

Cons would be the having to do the conversion ( although, if you can change your own oil, you can do it yourself ), optics options are a bit limited and mags are expensive ( but available ).

For ease of set up, AR10 makes the most sense, easy to mount optics, the most ergonomic of the ones listed and the most aftermarket support.
 
BM59-The Thinking Man's Garand
or
Argentine FN49-The Last Elegant Battle Rifle

Just a few more options to salivate over:D
TCB
 
I am going to try to answer all the questions and ask a few questions in this reply. I still haven't figured out how to quote text on this site yet:rolleyes:.

First off this is primarily going to be a range gun. I don't really plan on dragging it around hunting. I might use it out of stand once a in a while but thats not the plan really.

Mainly I want a very accurate semi-auto rifle that would still be able to take some wear and tare if ever needed as a MBR.

The way I look at it is I have a SKS carbine that will handle anything up to 200 yards and I am keeping it with open sights. I plan to put glass on the new rifle with back up open sights. I want this new rifle to be able to push out past 500 yards accurately. I am not saying by any means I am that great of a shot past 300 yards but I plan on practicing often to become better.

I have yet to read anything bad posted about the Armalite AR10. It seems as any one who has one likes them. I have shot the Remington R25 in .243 and .308 and liked both.

The thing that sells me on the AR10 platform is
#1 the ease of mounting a scope
#2 some common parts between the 15 and 10 platform
#3 can build or buy different uppers because I very much like the .243 and .260 round also. I just don't have the room to reload at the moment.

I have not read anything bad about the FNAR and I was looking at them pretty hard and were at the top of my list also. If I could find one for around or under a 1000.00 I would most likely jump on it. The thing I don't like about them is the price of the after market mags and it doesn't seem very easy to find them.

PTR91 From what I have read and actually shot my cousins also. It seems to be a love hate relationship. Most people love the way the gun functions, hates them if they reload, and complains about ergonomics and manipulating the controls. My cousins has a actual HK and I was never impressed by the accuracy and neither was he. I did feel like you could put that gun through anything and it would still function.

M1A I just don't feel like I am going to be happy with the low end model of this rifle and its going to cost me a lot of money in accessories to make it the way I want it. I love the way they look and feel but I just cant make myself want to pay 2000.00 plus for a highly accurized one. I have also read some very mixed reviews on the new models not being made as well as others and people complaining about the lack of accuracy.

FAL every body seems to love these. I wish I would have the chance to shoot one but I don't know any one who has one. How are we talking accuracy wise at 100 yards? how hard is it to put a good scope mount on it? also would back up sights still be a option with the scope mount? I really know nothing of these rifles besides hearing they are rock solid and people love them.

AK .308 My room mate has a saiga that he put the mods into the trigger and what not. Seems to be OK. I have no complaints I just feel other options are better that is all. The super veprs really caught my eye. I wish I had the chance to handle one.


As of right now I haven't seen any reasons on why not to buy the AR10 besides they get dirty. Other than that it seems to be a solid platform. I still leaning pretty hard toward purchasing one. Unless the right deal comes up on a M1A or a FNAR.
 
Many rifles will meet your requirements, but the AR-10 has a definite edge in the accuracy category. The others can be accurate, but will almost certainly not shoot as well as the AR without spending a good deal more.

The AR platform in both 5.56 and 7.62 is overwhelmingly popular for a reason. Say you decide you like the M1A, and you like it so much, you want one for long range work and one for CQB. You'll spend 4 grand on a NM and a SOCOM or similar. Now take the AR-10; You can buy an Armalite AR-10(T) that will out-shoot the NM for $1,700, then get a carbine upper for $800. And it'll be lighter than other 7.62 rifles. Oh, you want to change caliber? Same story. .243, .260, 7mm-08, WSM/RSAUM cartridges, the list goes on.

There are lots of good 7.62 rifles available, but none have the light weight, the accuracy and the flexibility of the AR on a working man's budget.

Wouldn't the requirement for steel-cased ammo exclude the AR-type?
Click to expand...

Nope. I shoot a ton of steel cased ammo in my AR-10 carbine. Other than being a bit dirtier than most brass cased stuff, no problems. I have yet to snap an extractor, even though I keep a spare because I bought into the hype about steel cases being hard on them.

The CETME/G3/PTR91 rifles are the ones that may find steel cases disagreeable due to the fluted chambers.
 
About the only rifle that truely exceeds the 2 moa is an AR-10 or a possibly a M1A. Some othes may be close but if you are picky like I am about hitting your target there isn't much choice in battle rifles. Maybe the FNAR. Notice you don't see any other rifles winning accuracy matches. The AR-10 types dominate. Minute of zombi at 100 yards from a bench doesn't cut it for me.
100% to 400 meters useing standard shooting positions and very quickly is my standard because that's how I did it in the Army.
 
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