Let's get to the bottom of mailing and shipping firearms

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Sylvan-Forge

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for nonlicensed folk

If this has been posted before, please direct me and delete this thread.

Ok, 1st, I am NOT a lawyer. This is NOT legal advice.
This IS an academic exersize only. Proceed at your own risk.
Blah, blah, blah.


The BATFE website says:


(B7) May a nonlicensee ship a firearm through the U.S. Postal Service?
A nonlicensee may not transfer a firearm to a non-licensed resident of another State. A nonlicensee may mail a shotgun or rifle to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. The Postal Service recommends that long guns be sent by registered mail and that no marking of any kind which would indicate the nature of the contents be placed on the outside of any parcel containing firearms. Handguns are not mailable. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun.
[18 U.S.C. 1715, 922(a)(3), 922(a)(5) and 922 (a)(2)(A)]


(B8) May a nonlicensee ship a firearm by common or contract carrier?
A nonlicensee may ship a firearm by a common or contract carrier to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun. In addition, Federal law requires that the carrier be notified that the shipment contains a firearm and prohibits common or contract carriers from requiring or causing any label to be placed on any package indicating that it contains a firearm.
[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(2)(A), 922(a) (3), 922(a)(5) and 922(e), 27 CFR 478.31 and 478.30]

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#b7



Well, let's just take a look then, shall we..
:scrutiny:


TITLE 18 PART I CHAPTER 83 § 1715
Firearms as nonmailable; regulations

Pistols, revolvers, and other firearms capable of being concealed on the person are nonmailable and shall not be deposited in or carried by the mails or delivered by any officer or employee of the Postal Service. Such articles may be conveyed in the mails, under such regulations as the Postal Service shall prescribe, for use in connection with their official duty, to officers of the Army, Navy, Air Force, Coast Guard, Marine Corps, or Organized Reserve Corps; to officers of the National Guard or Militia of a State, Territory, Commonwealth, Possession, or District; to officers of the United States or of a State, Territory, Commonwealth, Possession, or District whose official duty is to serve warrants of arrest or commitments; to employees of the Postal Service; to officers and employees of enforcement agencies of the United States; and to watchmen engaged in guarding the property of the United States, a State, Territory, Commonwealth, Possession, or District. Such articles also may be conveyed in the mails to manufacturers of firearms or bona fide dealers therein in customary trade shipments, including such articles for repairs or replacement of parts, from one to the other, under such regulations as the Postal Service shall prescribe. [see post #3]

Whoever knowingly deposits for mailing or delivery, or knowingly causes to be delivered by mail according to the direction thereon, or at any place to which it is directed to be delivered by the person to whom it is addressed, any pistol, revolver, or firearm declared nonmailable by this section, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than two years, or both.



TITLE 27 CFR CHAPTER II
PART 478—COMMERCE IN FIREARMS AND AMMUNITION
§ 478.30 Out-of-State disposition of firearms by nonlicensees.

No nonlicensee shall transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any other nonlicensee, who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the transferor resides: Provided, That the provisions of this section:

(a) shall not apply to the transfer, transportation, or delivery of a firearm made to carry out a bequest of a firearm to, or any acquisition by intestate succession of a firearm by, a person who is permitted to acquire or possess a firearm under the laws of the State of his residence; and

(b) shall not apply to the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes.


§ 478.31 Delivery by common or contract carrier.
(a) No person shall knowingly deliver or cause to be delivered to any common or contract carrier for transportation or shipment in interstate or foreign commerce to any person other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector, any package or other container in which there is any firearm or ammunition without written notice to the carrier that such firearm or ammunition is being transported or shipped: Provided, That any passenger who owns or legally possesses a firearm or ammunition being transported aboard any common or contract carrier for movement with the passenger in interstate or foreign commerce may deliver said firearm or ammunition into the custody of the pilot, captain, conductor or operator of such common or contract carrier for the duration of that trip without violating any provision of this part.
(b) No common or contract carrier shall require or cause any label, tag, or other written notice to be placed on the outside of any package, luggage, or other container indicating that such package, luggage, or other container contains a firearm.

(c) No common or contract carrier shall transport or deliver in interstate or foreign commerce any firearm or ammunition with knowledge or reasonable cause to believe that the shipment, transportation, or receipt thereof would be in violation of any provision of this part: Provided, however, That the provisions of this paragraph shall not apply in respect to the transportation of firearms or ammunition in in-bond shipment under Customs laws and regulations.

(d) No common or contract carrier shall knowingly deliver in interstate or foreign commerce any firearm without obtaining written acknowledgement of receipt from the recipient of the package or other container in which there is a firearm: Provided, That this paragraph shall not apply with respect to the return of a firearm to a passenger who places firearms in the carrier's custody for the duration of the trip.
 
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TITLE 18 PART I CHAPTER 44 § 922
Unlawful acts

(a) It shall be unlawful—

(2) for any importer, manufacturer, dealer, or collector licensed under the provisions of this chapter to ship or transport in interstate or foreign commerce any firearm to any person other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector, except that—
(A) this paragraph and subsection (b)(3) shall not be held to preclude a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector from returning a firearm or replacement firearm of the same kind and type to a person from whom it was received; and this paragraph shall not be held to preclude an individual from mailing a firearm owned in compliance with Federal, State, and local law to a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector;

(3) for any person, other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to transport into or receive in the State where he resides (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, the State where it maintains a place of business) any firearm purchased or otherwise obtained by such person outside that State, except that this paragraph
(A) shall not preclude any person who lawfully acquires a firearm by bequest or intestate succession in a State other than his State of residence from transporting the firearm into or receiving it in that State, if it is lawful for such person to purchase or possess such firearm in that State,
(B) shall not apply to the transportation or receipt of a firearm obtained in conformity with subsection (b)(3) of this section, and
(C) shall not apply to the transportation of any firearm acquired in any State prior to the effective date of this chapter;

(5) for any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) to transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the transferor resides; except that this paragraph shall not apply to
(A) the transfer, transportation, or delivery of a firearm made to carry out a bequest of a firearm to, or an acquisition by intestate succession of a firearm by, a person who is permitted to acquire or possess a firearm under the laws of the State of his residence, and
(B) the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes;


(e) It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to deliver or cause to be delivered to any common or contract carrier for transportation or shipment in interstate or foreign commerce, to persons other than licensed importers, licensed manufacturers, licensed dealers, or licensed collectors, any package or other container in which there is any firearm or ammunition without written notice to the carrier that such firearm or ammunition is being transported or shipped; except that any passenger who owns or legally possesses a firearm or ammunition being transported aboard any common or contract carrier for movement with the passenger in interstate or foreign commerce may deliver said firearm or ammunition into the custody of the pilot, captain, conductor or operator of such common or contract carrier for the duration of the trip without violating any of the provisions of this chapter. No common or contract carrier shall require or cause any label, tag, or other written notice to be placed on the outside of any package, luggage, or other container that such package, luggage, or other container contains a firearm.
 
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Ok,

The US Postal Service on mailing firearms:
http://pe.usps.com/text/pub52/pub52c4_003.html#NL508_16

a. Pistols, revolvers, and other firearms capable of being concealed on the person (referred to as "handguns") are nonmailable in the domestic mail, except as permitted in Exhibit 432.1 and DMM 601.11.1.

b. The disassembled parts of a handgun or other type of nonmailable firearm that can be readily reassembled as a weapon are nonmailable, except as permitted in Exhibit 432.1 and DMM 601.11.1 or 601.11.2.

c. Unloaded antique firearms sent as curios or museum pieces are generally permitted, as specified in Exhibit 432.1 and DMM 601.11.2.

d. Unloaded rifles and shotguns may be mailed if the mailer fully complies with the Gun Control Act of 1968 (Public Law 90-618) and 18 USC 921. The mailer may be required to establish, by opening the parcel or by written certification, that the gun is unloaded and not excluded from mailing because of the restrictions in 432.2 b and c.

<snip>

Well, the Postal Service "shall prescribe", and so they have, according to the above and their website.
 
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Maybe not by individuals, but dealers can and do. I have been standing in my dealers place when the postman dropped off priority mail boxes containing handguns, one of them being for me from an out of state dealer. Ive also dropped off handguns to him to be shipped which he sent USPS priority mail.
 
As I understand it (for handguns as that's all I deal with):

An FFL can use USPS for mailing guns to and fro (mine does for me at $15).

We mere mortals must use UPS/FEDEX overnight to send guns to and fro.

The receiver (with the serial #) is considered the firearm. You could take one apart and mail the parts EXCEPT the receiver.

If you send your gun in to the "manufacturer" for service (you have to overnight with UPS/FEDEX, FFL can mail), they can ship it directly to you as there's no change in ownership.

I was never inclined to read a bunch of legaleze so the above is the rules I live by when shipping guns. I know folks can and do skirt these issues; however, I've never been a big fan of prison so I choose to be safe not sorry...
 
Did a search and came up empty so looking for guidance on moving...

I'm shipping all my belongings in one 40 foot shipping container. Do I have to do anything special, notification?, if I just leave them in my gun safe and put them in a shipping container along with all my other household stuff? Also, I have a bunch of ammo I'd like to take with me. What's the best way to get it moved as well? My container is going by land and boat....
 
I see you didn't point out the inaccuracy of the ATF FAQ, in regards to the notification requirement.... That is usually a point of confusion.

Many think that the "overnight requirement" is required by law, but that is not the case. It, like the notification requirement, is just FedEX and UPS policy.
 
An FFL can use USPS for mailing guns to and fro (mine does for me at $15).
Click to expand...

I understand what you are saying but it is better worded to say - dealers and manufacturers can send handguns to and from each other via USPS. C&R license holders are FFLs and they cannot use USPS.
 
A couple of questions.

If you break a US Postal Service RULE, who comes after you? who is their enforcment branch?

If I break a UPS "RULE" I am simply breaking company policy. While I might not be able to claim my goods, or get them to pay insurance on lost goods, I face no criminal charges. USPS is of course governmental, but is there a distinction between USPS RULES and LAWS?

Is USPS part of the legislative branch? Can they create law by creating policy? Who exactly creates postal law/policy?
 
If you break a US Postal Service RULE, who comes after you? who is their enforcment branch?
Click to expand...

It is not a simply a "RULE", it is federal law. Violation is a felony.

"Section 1715.
Firearms as nonmailable; regulations Pistols, revolvers, and other firearms capable of being concealed on the person are nonmailable and shall not be deposited in or carried by the mail or delivered by any officer or employee of the Postal Service. Such articles may be conveyed in the mail, under such regulations as the Postal Service shall prescribe, for use in connection with their official duty, to officers of the Army, Navy, Air Force, Coast Guard, Marine Corps, or Organized Reserve Corps; to officers of the National Guard or militia of a state, territory, commonwealth, possession, or district; to officers of the United States or of a state, territory, or district whose official duty is to serve warrants of arrest or commitments; to employees of the Postal Service; to officers and employees of enforcement agencies of the United States; and to watchmen engaged in guarding the property of the United States, a state, territory, commonwealth, possession, or district. Such articles also may be conveyed in the mail to manufacturers of firearms or bona fide dealers therein in customary trade shipments, including such articles for repairs or replacement of parts, from one to the other, under such regulations as the Postal Service shall prescribe. Whoever knowingly deposits for mailing or delivery, or knowingly causes to be delivered by mail according to the direction thereon, or at any place to which it is directed to be delivered by the person to whom it is addressed, any pistol, revolver, or firearm declared nonmailable by this section, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than two years, or both.
18 U.S.C. 1715"

Short version - you are forbidden to mail a handgun unless you meet one of the very limited exceptions in the statute or "under such regulations as the Postal Service shall prescribe." The USPS regulations are set out in the Domestic Mail Manual. You mail a handgun in vioaltion of the DMM, you have violated a federal statute and can expect a visit from the FBI.
 
I'm shipping all my belongings in one 40 foot shipping container. Do I have to do anything special, notification?
Click to expand...

You are shipping them to yourself, so you are legal in that aspect. Technically, you must inform the carrier there are firearms being shipped in the container.
 
To summarize:

(B7) May a nonlicensee ship a firearm through the U.S. Postal Service?
A nonlicensee may not transfer a firearm to a non-licensed resident of another State. A nonlicensee may mail a shotgun or rifle to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. The Postal Service recommends that long guns be sent by registered mail and that no marking of any kind which would indicate the nature of the contents be placed on the outside of any parcel containing firearms. Handguns are not mailable. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun.
[18 U.S.C. 1715, 922(a)(3), 922(a)(5) and 922 (a)(2)(A)]


(B8) May a nonlicensee ship a firearm by common or contract carrier?
A nonlicensee may ship a firearm by a common or contract carrier to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun. In addition, Federal law requires that the carrier be notified that the shipment contains a firearm and prohibits common or contract carriers from requiring or causing any label to be placed on any package indicating that it contains a firearm.
[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(2)(A), 922(a) (3), 922(a)(5) and 922(e), 27 CFR 478.31 and 478.30]



27 CFR § 478.31 Delivery by common or contract carrier.
(a) No person shall knowingly deliver or cause to be delivered to any common or contract carrier for transportation or shipment in interstate or foreign commerce to any person other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector, any package or other container in which there is any firearm or ammunition without written notice to the carrier that such firearm or ammunition is being transported or shipped

So, I take this to mean there is no (legal) need to notify the carrier if you are shipping a firearm to a dealer, manufacturer, or licensed collector interstate (outside of your state).






Carrier Policy Update:
Contrary to UPS stated policy, I have been told by two seperate supervisors and one customer center manager as well as an email response from corporate, that handguns cannot be shipped intrastate (within the state) between residents, even though this is in accordance with federal and (my) state's laws. I asked them via email to clarify this mess and please update their website thusly.

http://www.ups.com/media/en/terms_service_12312007.pdf

Bleh .. the .pdf says yes, so do two other UPS pages, but yet they say no ... jeez.

FedEx says no to intrastate, DHL won't touch firearms at all.


I call all this obstruction to intrastate commerce (if there is such a thing), thanks all to 1715.

A nonlicensed resident of a state should be able to send to another nonlicensed resident of the same state, but no common carrier will do it.

So ... I've asked my local rep to sponser a bill to amend 1715, in order to allow us to send handguns intrastate via the US postal service.

I'll let y'all know what happens when I get a response.
 
FedEX demands you overnight handguns which is a rip off (~$50) but last time I needed to return one I went there about 3:30PM on a Friday, after their overnight deadline for Saturday delivery.

Either they couldn't charge me for overnight delivery they could not gaurentee, or the counter person made a mistake and let me ship it third day for $15. Gun was at the manufacturer's on Monday.

Give it a try!

--wally.
 
It is not a simply a "RULE", it is federal law. Violation is a felony.
Click to expand...

I say again, who wrote the law? Where is the line between US Postal Service setting up regulations and laws? Was it an act of congress that dictated handguns could not be mailed except by FFLers?
 
I say again, who wrote the law? Where is the line between US Postal Service setting up regulations and laws? Was it an act of congress that dictated handguns could not be mailed except by FFLers?
Click to expand...

Federal laws are passed by Congress and signed by the President. The statute cited above is a law, passed by Congress and signed by the President. The statute prohibits mailing handguns with limited exceptions. For example, one exception is made for dealers and manufacturers who can mail handguns between themselves - "Such articles also may be conveyed in the mail to manufacturers of firearms or bona fide dealers therein in customary trade shipments, including such articles for repairs or replacement of parts, from one to the other, under such regulations as the Postal Service shall prescribe."
The statute itself says that dealers and manufacturers can mail handguns between themselves and leaves it to the USPS to prescribe regulations to work out the details.

Now if you want to know who specifically authored this particular law way back when, I suggest you do a search for the legislative history of this statute.

If you want to know how federal regulations are made and incorporated into federal law, I suggest a good course in admin law. I'm not being flippant, understanding this subject took me the best part of a summer.

Look at it this way - Congress passed a law saying that the mail cannot be used for handguns. In the statute, Congress carved out a limited number of exceptions to this prohibition. Then Congress left it to the USPS to work out the everyday details of how to carry out the Congressional mandate.
 
So, I take this to mean there is no (legal) need to notify the carrier if you are shipping a firearm to a dealer, manufacturer, or licensed collector interstate (outside of your state).
Click to expand...
Yes, there is. The law doesn't say that you have to ship overnight but it DOES say that you must notify the shipper that you are shipping a firearm. When you tell them, they will make you ship it overnight. It's a scam but that's the way it is.
 
Tried to ship

a long gun last month to a permitted resident of Nev. I,a resident of AL, was refused by USPS, UPS, and Fedex and was told by my local PO that I cannot ship guns through the mail, long or handgun, unless I was FFL. I am legally premitted to carry as well as the recipient. I called BATF in Atlanta and was told that I could. Correct me if I am wrong here but the isn't the USPS a company separate from the US government and therefore operate according to "company policy"? Frustrated in Alabama.
 
Your permit means absolutely nothing when you're talking about shipping guns.

You cannot ship ANY firearm across state lines without going through an FFL unless you are shipping it to yourself. If you ship it to yourself and someone else opens it and you get caught, it's Federal felony.
Your post office is wrong though. IF you were shipping to an FFL, it would be perfectly legal for you to ship a long gun via U.S. Mail. Sometimes you just have to over the counter people's head.
 
Desertscout,

thanks for responding so quickly. I was trying to ship to an FFL and I got the counter person to call their super who in turn called their immediate super,whoever that was, and I was turned down. My local dealer who eventually shipped it for me was as curious as I was and just chalked it up as small town ignorance.
 
Desertscout,

No person shall knowingly deliver or cause to be delivered to any common or contract carrier for transportation or shipment in interstate or foreign commerce to any person other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector, any package or other container in which there is any firearm or ammunition without written notice to the carrier


I'm still seeing that one can ship out of state to a dealer without notifying the carrier that the package contains a firearm.
 
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