Lets talk ACOGS!

[SnakeEater]

Holy Cow, this thread is growing fast. I failed to mention my intended purpose for the optic. I'm basically trying to build the ultimate SHTF rifle that's capable of many different objectives, hence going with a shorter than normal barrel for better CQB performance. The optic needs to perform well, not be the best, but perform well in everything from CQB, night fighting, to engaging PEOPLE at 600m. Durability is a must. Price is not a consideration. Keep'em coming.

 

[Zak Smith]

The S&B Short Dot is supposed to be good at both short range and long range. Its downsides are size, weight, and price (about $2k).

The short but accurate barrel has become popular recently, as the "RECCE" format (16" with FF rail and optic) or the same in 14.5". These setups are designed to be light, compact, but accurate and competent (but not optimized) at long range. They generally have match barrels of heavier profile than M4/Gov't, but lighter than Hbar, with a flat-top receiver and a FF railed fore-end of Mid (9.0) or rifle length (12.0).

The price paid vs a 18" or 20" barrel is velocity. For example, Black Hills 75gr shoots at about 2640-2680fps from my 17-20" barrels (different barrels are "slow" or "fast" in addition to length difference), while a 14.5" barrel shoots the same ammo at 2500fps. With XM193, the velocity difference is about 300fps from 20" to 14.5".. but M193 is not optimal for long range shooting mainly due to wind drift on the light bullet.




-z

 

[SnakeEater]

I appreciate the info Zak but this rifle will be in .308

 

[Zak Smith]

How short are you wanting to go in 308?

Velocity losses are considerable when you go below 18"

 

[SnakeEater]

I'm leaning towards the 18.5" bush barrel, coupled with a LRB M14SA reciever. If I went the FAL route it would be 18" even.

 

[beerslurpy]

Holy cow, a short barreled 308 cqb gun. That is a new one. It will work, but your ears might not afterwards. Are you planning on getting a suppressor for it?

One idea I saw once (which may be good or bad) is to get a magnified sight (like your magnified ACOG) for long range but also put one of those laser sights on the gun for short range cqb type work. But this leaves a gap between 10 and 50 yards where neither sight is optimal.

 

[SnakeEater]

If it ever got bad enough to use it in CQB I doubt my hearing would be a priority. Besides, it's the M4 is the standard CQB arm nowdays and I know from experience that it ain't quiet.

 

[Jeff White]

If price isn't a factor, the S&B Short Dot is the optic you want.

Just curious as to what type of scenario you envision employing this rifle as a CQB tool. Law enforcement tactical team or just repelling borders in your home?

Jeff

 

[MTMilitiaman]

Well we all know that the Russians are famous for making stuff that is less expensive than their Western competitors, but I had no idea anyone ever viewed it as less durable or reliable. If the Russians make their optics like they make their rifles, then function, durability, and reliablility are all bases pretty well covered. All that is left to explain is why American units can't claim much more of anything except price and Green Berets. But then, I didn't think Spetznaz was a bunch of slackers either.

 

[Oleg Volk]

I had two Cobras, neither worked right. In backlight, they also flared badly. I gave up on Russian optics from then on. Their camera lenses tended to be iffy as well.

 

[ssr]

Can night vision be used with the Reflex (not ACOG) without damaging the night vision device?

 

[NMshooter]

In theory.

That is why the amber color.

Never had any NV handy at the same time as a reflex though, so I do not know how well it works in practice.

 

[Zak Smith]

There is always the option of a magnified optic (fixed or variable) and a small 1x red dot such as the DocterSight or JPoint for closer targets.

[ link to LARGER image ]

 

[Nimitz]

so what happens when you use an ACOG at night? or near night condtions...it works off the surronding light by the sun correct?...

Chad

 

[boofus]

The reticle is lit by tritium if there is no other light.

 

[Zak Smith]

The BAC-equipped ACOG models (everything except the TA01*) are dual illuminated with both the fiber optic and built-in tritium. They are clearly visible at night.

 

[SpookyPistolero]

I think Zak has nailed it if you can't live with the inevitable compromise of a single optic.

I have been thinking of the same type of all-purpose rifle for myself. I have not really decided on the .308 or 7.62x39 as it's caliber, but it will be an AK based action. Basically, though, I am hoping to put a DocterSight on an Ultimak rail and also a 4x PSOP optic on the siderail. I believe that there will be enough sideclearance to allow the use of both. Weight should also still be pretty light since the front dot is pretty teeny.

I think a setup like Zak has, on something like a .308 AR (or a FAL with an angled rail) where you could put a lightweight dot on for close range and keep your solid optic up top, would be top notch.

I have not been able to think of any setup that would really allow you to 'do it all'. There are so many compromises. With the single optic, you either aren't as effective up close, or can't see what you're trying to hit at long ranges. In the combo setup as above, you pretty much only have to deal with a little extra weight, and running your rifle on a cant when in close.

I suppose if it came down to it, I would want to settle for a rifle that was a little less effective at a longer range, since you're more likely to be in dire need of a greatly efficient rifle when things are close and ugly. Distance at least implies time and a chance at survival if you get to movin'.

My thoughts, humbly submitted.

 

[Nimitz]

thanks...

now what happens when the tritium's half life is reached? supposedly 12 years?...the sight is then worthless at night? or in low light condtions?...thats not so great for $1,000+

or am I misguided? (hey it happens...)

now I guess I need to go debate the TA11 vs the TA31....

Chad

 

[Zak Smith]

No, it'll just be 50% as bright as it was 12 years ago... Trijicon can recharge your tritium for a fee.. Also note that you can tape on a glow-stick or keychain LED to the fiber optic if you need more brightness.

 

[artherd]

Guys, trust me, you could do worse than to just buy one of everything Zak owns

Zak- I keep going back and forth between TA11 and TA31. I've held 'em both up to my eyes (though sadly not mounted to a rifle) and just can't make up my mind.

 

[Zak Smith]

I have 3 TA11's. I bought a TA31 at a great price, but ended up selling it and going back to the TA11.

The TA11 will allow much more flexibility in terms of head placement. You don't have to be so close to the optic, and you have more lattitude side/side/up/down, which is useful when acquiring a sight picture FAST, shooting while moving, or shooting from wierd positions like rollover prone, etc.

A nice thing about the ACOG is that you can buy one, try it out, and sell it without losing much $$.

I doubt if an extra 0.5x magnification makes much difference. The TA31 is a little smaller and lighter weight.

-z

 

[Bottom Gun]

I agree with Zak.
It’s the old story of getting what you pay for. Yes, the ACOG’s are pricey, but they are fantastic sights. One look through the lenses will tell you why they are so costly. The optics are incredible.

I’ve been using them for about 4 years. I have two TA-11’s. I mounted one on a 16” AR15, the other sits on top of my 20” AR10. They are crisp, clear and really gather light well in low light situations. My AR15 gets used a LOT and since my home is very close to the border, it goes on all my trail and ATV rides. That TA-11 has held up very well. It's a very quick sight since head position isn't critical. So long as you can see through the tube, you'll hit with it.

The TA-11 on my AR10 took quite a few lumps and bumps when I used it to hunt elk two years ago. It worked fine and I took my elk using it. After I filled my tag, I let my buddy’s teenage son use it to fill his tag.
The only problem I had was that I discovered looking through my camo head net caused the red donut to appear slightly difused. I haven’t tried any other red dot sights with this head net so I don’t know if the same problem would occur. It was no big deal though and easily overcome. Otherwise these scopes are crystal clear and images seen through them are outstanding.
My lady friend has asked if she can use the AR10/TA-11 setup when we hunt elk next month so we’ll put it to the test again.

I have not used any better optics than these lenses on these TA-11’s. I’ve compared the optics with Leupold Vari-X III, Zeiss Conquest and Nikon Monarch and pre-Monarch. The ACOG optics appear to be better.
I have used and tried a variety of other types of red dot sights and short scopes and so far none have compared to these ACOG’s. I don’t want to knock anyone’s favorite red dot or short scope, but they simply aren’t the same caliber as these ACOG’s.

Pricey? Yes, they are indeed. Would I buy another? Yes, without hesitation. They are worth the money.

 

[mpthole]

Can ACOG's be setup to co-witness with iron sights - like an Aimpoint?

 

[Zak Smith]

It doesn't make sense to co-witness magnified optics and BUIS, because you cannot see the front sight through the optic.

On a 1x red dot, you can deploy the rear BUIS and shoot iron sights through the "dead" Aimpoint - assuming the lenses are not broken.

Otherwise in the case of opaque 1x optics or a broken magnified optic, you need to quick release the optic to use the irons.

 

[mpthole]

Thanks Zak - that makes sense.