Let's talk mechanical/beam scales for a minute

[rpenmanparker]

That too depends, they don’t make check weights for watches and his assumption was that the two instruments disagree with one another.

With an assortment of check weights an operator can be fairly confident in the results they are getting as long as they are in the right ranges in terms of value.

If I had a half dozen all give me the same value I would have even more confidence that the value was correct (despite understanding that all could be incorrect). If I had two scales that didn’t agree with one another, I would test them against the others I have and give the incorrect one to my niece for weighing her jewelry projects...

Of course they make check weights for watches. It is called the Official NIST US Time at www.time.gov.

 

[Jim Watson]

Except in college chemistry lab, I never had a need to weigh closer than a tenth of a gram. An Ohaus triple beam balance was fine for small scale work.
On the other hand, our products were pretty much defined by pH. A pH meter of my day was a finicky instrument. My group leader had an eye for product consistency and if he didn't like the pH reading, he would try another meter.

 

[jmorris]

Of course they make check weights for watches. It is called the Official NIST US Time at www.time.gov.

Should have thought about that, I even have a clock in the shop that is set off of the WWVB’s transmissions. I guess even if I had two, I’d always be sure of the time.

 

[rpenmanparker]

Should have thought about that, I even have a clock in the shop that is set off of the WWVB’s transmissions. I guess even if I had two, I’d always be sure of the time.

Good point!

 

[LiveLife]

Sartorius electronic scale ... I would not mind having one of those to use for reloading, but would never want to pay for it, nor do I need more capability than what the equipment I have now gives me.

While Gemini-20 has .02 gr resolution and can verify Ohaus ASTM Class 6 check weights down to .03 gr, it is usually stored away from the bench as Ohaus 10-10 and FA DS-750 with .1 gr resolution (recently replaced with WAOAW digital scale sensitive down to .04 gr) kept on the bench are more than adequate for everyday reloading tasks. Gemini-20 is used when I need to verify less than .1 gr.

Keep in mind for decades, countless matches including long-range/1000 yard Palma matches have been won with .1 gr resolution Ohaus 10-10 beam scales. If shooters were able to produce match winning loads with .1 gr resolution scales back then, we can certainly produce accurate and consistent loads today using .1 gr resolution scales whether beam or digital.

“Digital balance” can mean ... under $15 and would be a step down from most common beam scales, the other is closer to $5,000 and would be a step up from most common beam scales. Lots of other stuff in between too so general statements like “a” is always better than “b” are just false.

Absolutely agree with bolded part of your statement.

WAOAW digital scale sensitive down to .04 gr will display readings faster than my two Ohaus 10-10 beam scales and I would consider it a "step up" from .1 gr resolution scales - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...ales-for-a-minute.836677/page-3#post-10849863

BTW, there's a newer model Gem 20 from My Weigh (maker of popular Gem Pro 250) with larger platform to use with powder pans. And yes, it's under $20 - https://www.amazon.com/Smart-Weigh-...rd_wg=Zif1p&psc=1&refRID=MY8NDBNBEGZ1ARRDD5ZC

As already busted in the myth busting thread, cheaper $20 digital scales CAN be good enough for reloading. With advancement in technology, digital vs beam scales may follow the path of analog vs digital watches (how many of us still wear wind up watches?). Just be sure to operate digital scales within specified temperature range (59F to 95F), replace battery when readings become less consistent and verify with check weights (which should be done even with beam scales).

I have considered buying higher dollar digital scales/analytical balances but had to ask myself why when I can meter powders like Sport Pistol with less than .05 gr variance - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/lee-proauto-disk-mods.828480/#post-10682624

Sport Pistol (10 drops from .49 disk hole of Pro Auto Disk weighed on Gemini-20):

• 4.88 gr
• 4.88 gr
• 4.84 gr
• 4.84 gr
• 4.84 gr
• 4.84 gr
• 4.88 gr
• 4.86 gr
• 4.86 gr
• 4.84 gr

.04 gr variance - I think this is more than good enough for reloading.

 

[1066]

I thought all reloading scales measured in grains. The one I owned years ago was grains. Do you have a link to the one your looking at. May be misreading the specs.

As far as I know the whole RCBS/ Ohaus range of scales (not sure about the M500/M100000 are available in Grains or Grams, I've certainly come across 502, 505 10/10 and 10-0-5 scales in Grams - The whole of continental Europe weigh in grams, the load data is in grams and many use scales made by Ohaus/Rcbs.

Here's a 10/10 marked in grams - see the beam only reads to 50, not 500. - They are, of course just as accurate.

 

[1066]

The great thing about the RBCS 505 and Dillon Eliminator (which are basically the same scale from Ohaus) is that the minor adjust goes to "10". On the cheaper scales where the minor adjust only goes to "5" you need to be ever-mindful that an adjustment to (say for instance) "0.2" could mean your load is XX.2gr or XX.7gr. You have to force yourself to remember the extra 0.5gr to mentally add in.

That to me, that is a safety issue.

Can you clarify that a bit, I really don't understand what you are saying there, are you suggesting that some cheaper scales only adjust to the nearest .2 grain?

 

[Load Master]

While Gemini-20 has .02 gr resolution and can verify Ohaus ASTM Class 6 check weights down to .03 gr, it is usually stored away from the bench as Ohaus 10-10 and FA DS-750 with .1 gr resolution (recently replaced with WAOAW digital scale sensitive down to .04 gr) kept on the bench are more than adequate for everyday reloading tasks. Gemini-20 is used when I need to verify less than .1 gr.

Keep in mind for decades, countless matches including long-range/1000 yard Palma matches have been won with .1 gr resolution Ohaus 10-10 beam scales. If shooters were able to produce match winning loads with .1 gr resolution scales back then, we can certainly produce accurate and consistent loads today using .1 gr resolution scales whether beam or digital.

Absolutely agree with bolded part of your statement.

WAOAW digital scale sensitive down to .04 gr will display readings faster than my two Ohaus 10-10 beam scales and I would consider it a "step up" from .1 gr resolution scales - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...ales-for-a-minute.836677/page-3#post-10849863

BTW, there's a newer model Gem 20 from My Weigh (maker of popular Gem Pro 250) with larger platform to use with powder pans. And yes, it's under $20 - https://www.amazon.com/Smart-Weigh-...rd_wg=Zif1p&psc=1&refRID=MY8NDBNBEGZ1ARRDD5ZC

As already busted in the myth busting thread, cheaper $20 digital scales CAN be good enough for reloading. With advancement in technology, digital vs beam scales may follow the path of analog vs digital watches (how many of us still wear wind up watches?). Just be sure to operate digital scales within specified temperature range (59F to 95F), replace battery when readings become less consistent and verify with check weights (which should be done even with beam scales).

I have considered buying higher dollar digital scales/analytical balances but had to ask myself why when I can meter powders like Sport Pistol with less than .05 gr variance - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/lee-proauto-disk-mods.828480/#post-10682624

Sport Pistol (10 drops from .49 disk hole of Pro Auto Disk weighed on Gemini-20):

• 4.88 gr
• 4.88 gr
• 4.84 gr
• 4.84 gr
• 4.84 gr
• 4.84 gr
• 4.88 gr
• 4.86 gr
• 4.86 gr
• 4.84 gr

.04 gr variance - I think this is more than good enough for reloading.

So which one of these $20 scales are you speaking about? One states it is made in China, the other American, though I don't know if that means the USA. There are a number of negative reviews, I wonder why that is?

 

[LiveLife]

I have the Gemini 20. I believe Gem 20 is an updated model with larger pan many reloaders complained about.

 

[jmorris]

I bought one of the Gem 20 scales just because I had $20 burning a hole in my pocket. It came in today and the battery saver “feature” would drive me nuts as it powers off the scale pretty quick if you are not messing with it.

It does go to the hundredth of a grain x.xx gn but adding one kernel at a time of extruded powder to the pan I can drop 2 or 3 and it will jump up to 0.08 gn sometimes 5 kernels will read .12 or .14, adding a 6th won’t change the reading unless you remove all 6 and place them back in the pan then it goes to .16 gn. Again if you can manage to do all that in the 66 seconds it stays powered up before it shuts off.

It says my 250gn check weight is 249.88-249.92, it’s seems good enough to reload with, if you can get past it turning itself off every 66 seconds even if you are adding powder to the pan and changing the value but nothing super D duper.

 

[Toprudder]

It says my 250gn check weight is 249.88-249.92, it’s seems good enough to reload with, if you can get past it turning itself off every 66 seconds even if you are adding powder to the pan and changing the value but nothing super D duper.

If I am using the scale (taring, checking weight, etc) it stays on. It does not turn off unless I don't touch it for a minute or so.

Trickling powder can be a pain. The algorithm it uses for settling the display is the problem - once it has stabilized, the weight has to change a certain amount before it immediately updates, or a certain amount of time passes before it will adjust for small increments. If I do drop a few kernels, I will touch the pan with my finger and that will cause it to re-settle and update the display. This is not unique to the Gem20, most digital scales will do this. Scales that are part of a powder dispensing system (like the RCBS Chargemaster) have firmware that will update quicker when it is actually trickling powder.

 

[Blue68f100]

For small updates with digital scales I use something (normally tweezers) to just lift the edge of the pan to force it to read.

 

[rfwobbly]

Can you clarify that a bit, I really don't understand what you are saying there, are you suggesting that some cheaper scales only adjust to the nearest .2 grain?

I'm trying to explain that on a 2 poise scale, that since the minor adjustment only goes to "5" you have to always remember to check the setting of the major poise. For instance, you might quickly glance at the scale and think it's set to 4.2 grains, when in reality the Major poise has been set over one notch, so the scale is actually reading 9.2 grains.

Whereas on a RCBS 505 or Dillon Eliminator, there is a poise for grains going to "10" and a separate poise just for the tenths of a grain. The addition of the third poise makes it less likely to make this error.






So I'm simply pointing out that 3 poise balance beam scales are worth the slight extra cost. And I really believe Ohaus agrees with this becasue the Redding shown above teeters on the aluminum frame, the Lyman 500 pivots on nylon blocks, while the 505 and Eliminator teeter on agate gem stones.

 

[1066]

So I'm simply pointing out that 3 poise balance beam scales are worth the slight extra cost. And I really believe Ohaus agrees with this becasue the Redding shown above teeters on the aluminum frame, the Lyman 500 pivots on nylon blocks, while the 505 and Eliminator teeter on agate gem stones.

Ahh. I see what you're saying. Yes, I can see where it could lead to confusion for the unwary. The plus point with a two poise scale is that there is just one less place where inaccuracies can creep in, the whole grain poise on the 505 and the Eliminator is often the cause of zeroing problems with these scales, not so much on the old Hornady/Pacific "M" type three poise scales where the beam/poises are a more "engineered" affair, rather than the bent bit of tin.

Just a note - The Redding scales actually uses a hardened steel insert as a pivot bearing for the knife edge and the Lyman bearing blocks are also agate, although not floating like the RCBS scales.

Here's a short video I made a while ago where I changed the bearing on a Redding scale:

 

[irishlad]

View attachment 792855

View attachment 792856

I'm trying to explain that on a 2 poise scale, that since the minor adjustment only goes to "5" you have to always remember to check the setting of the major poise. For instance, you might quickly glance at the scale and think it's set to 4.2 grains, when in reality the Major poise has been set over one notch, so the scale is actually reading 9.2 grains.

Whereas on a RCBS 505 or Dillon Eliminator, there is a poise for grains going to "10" and a separate poise just for the tenths of a grain. The addition of the third


So I'm simply pointing out that 3 poise balance beam scales are worth the slight extra cost. And I really believe Ohaus agrees with this becasue the Redding shown above teeters on the aluminum frame, the Lyman 500 pivots on nylon blocks, while the 505 and Eliminator teeter on agate gem stones.

+1 I got a RCBS M500 with my rockchucker kit, while it is accurate, my 505 is easier to read and use.

 

[rfwobbly]

My scales may have been earlier models becasue the Redding had no insert, and the Lyman teetered on nylon !