Letting this one pass

[Hunterdad]

I was one of those people that spent hours arguing on Facebook. Had a good friend actually de-friend me. Considering what happened yesterday, arguing anything is a waste of time. People are very emotional, and rightfully so. They need/want something to blame for this horrible tragedy. I wish people would realize that broken people can't be fixed. Obviously the kid who did this had some serious issues.

People need to mourn, and I don't blame them. I have 3 daughters ages 12, 6 and 6 month and held them all close to me last night.

 

[Pete D.]

It's the worst thing you could do right now is argue the gun topic, let cooler heads prevail and let the argument evolve naturally. Both sides are very riled up now.

+1. That is what Al Thompson's Sticky is all about.
This needs a rest. For everything there is a season.....and today ain't the season for this argument.
Pete

 

[bikerdoc]

Dont argue guns, argue mental health.

 

[76shuvlinoff]

xxxxxxx xxxx xxxxxx xx facebook is a waste of time

fixed that for you

Dont argue guns, argue mental health

precisely

 

[FROGO207]

Argue the country as a whole not wanting to take responsibility for those that are marginally mentally ill to save a few dollars. Presently we ignore those that need the help the most until they cause a big enough problem that the law says what they did is wrong and THEN just put them in jail. Problem solved.:banghead: If we had spent more of the money on mental health help for the public instead of used it for bailouts for those that mismanaged themselves due to greed I would wonder if any of these tragedies could have been avoided. Does anyone who knows how the world really works think that people will NOT continue trying to arm themselves for protection. I bet gun sales will go up a lot.

 

[rduchateau2954]

I let myself get sucked into an argument over on a car forum. Some of the things being said just made my skin crawl. I usually don't care what people think, but the fact that those blatantly ignorant people vote terrifies me.

 

[DonJ441]

I'm simply praying for those who have lost loved ones. Any debates can wait for their proper time.

 

[303tom]

Let`s make guns illegal, that will get them off the streets, if that`s true lets make METH & HEROINE illegal, oh that`s right IT IS...........

 

[vito]

Unfortunately there is no REASONABLE way to stop such attacks with certainty. All day yesterday I had talk radio on, and heard everything from calls for more gun control to a focus on increased school building security to demands for better mental health services. Some of the suggestions might help reduce the risk of school shooting tragedies, but none can assure us that it will never happen again. As noted by others, we will see all sorts of emotionally based actions emerge, most, unfortunately will focus on the gun. For those of you who are interested, just google "school bombing" to read about an event in 1927 where a school board member, angry that school taxes to build a particular school caused the foreclosure of his farm, planted explosives in the school that ultimately killed many more students and others than this most recent shooting in Connecticutt. There is evil in the world and nothing will totally eliminate it. Now lets just be thinking and praying for the children lost and the unspeakable grief that their families are going through. I am so thankful that my nine grandchildren are OK.

 

[chemist308]

I used to blog about stuff like this, but now every single time something like this happens I send $25 to the NRA and GOA. Just think, if we all donated a little something every time...

This was so sad. I just wish they would wake up and allow teachers to carry.

 

[bowserb]

A couple of observations.

One. The worst job I can think of right now, would be any of the first responders to that school. Walking into a scene with 20 five and six year old children shot to death...I don't know if my own sanity could survive. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that over the next years one or more of the first responding police or EMT people become alcoholics, divorce, or even commit suicide.

Two. Some people (the ones who are not already clamoring for more gun control) are saying we need to do more to find these people before they commit their heinous acts. How? What are really the signs? A friend of mine, a widow, became custodian of her grandson because no one else in the family would take him. He's been arrested a few times, bought a car and then drove it into the backyard and beat it to pieces with a sledge hammer, walked up and down the street with an ax glaring at neighbors. He told my friend that he was probably going to hurt her one day. Still no help from the rest of the family, including the kid's divorced parents. He was taken into a mental facility, then released with medications that he would not take. So bad that my friend, the next time the guy was arrested, sold her house and disappeared for her own protection. The kid is on the loose again. This case seems like a future disaster, but there is no one to do anything about it.

Last night our twin 6 year old granddaughters spent the night. On the way over one started hitting the other, because "She told you the story I wanted to tell, and it was my story!" Early warning, or no-worries sibling rivalry? How does anyone really know before it's too late?

Three. The news reports that the handguns and AR belonged to the killer's mother, who apparently was the his first victim. I guess she had no clue her son was insane, or those guns would have been locked in a safe...like mine are, except for the one I'm wearing which also gets locked in a Gunvault (r) handgun box on the nightstand overnight. There may be more to the mother's story that we've yet to learn.

Finally, an interesting statistic I just heard. More people are murdered with knives in Mexico than all murders with any weapon in the U.S. combined. Strict gun laws just change weapons, not behavior.

 

[Lucifer_Sam]

Well, the thing is that you need to remember that these are kind of like little mini public debates. And when you respond, you aren't necessarily trying to persuade the the person you're talking to, but the others who are reading. Also, it puts a face and gives presence to gun rights supporters.

I'm really not inclined to argue much on the internet, its annoying and I start losing interest pretty quickly, but I've taken the time to reply to some of the top anti gun stories on google news and the accompanying comments.

Also, I think its not a bad idea to call out any on our side that say things like "WELCOME TO THE LIBERAL OBAMA NATION!!!" They aren't helping. I've seen several comments almost exactly like what I quoted, and all they get is mocked.

 

[Prophet]

Well, the thing is that you need to remember that these are kind of like little mini public debates. And when you respond, you aren't necessarily trying to persuade the the person you're talking to, but the others who are reading. Also, it puts a face and gives presence to gun rights supporters.

I'm really not inclined to argue much on the internet, its annoying and I start losing interest pretty quickly, but I've taken the time to reply to some of the top anti gun stories on google news and the accompanying comments.

Also, I think its not a bad idea to call out any on our side that say things like "WELCOME TO THE LIBERAL OBAMA NATION!!!" They aren't helping. I've seen several comments almost exactly like what I quoted, and all they get is mocked.

THIS. A lie that goes unanswered becomes truth, and there are currently (as in right now, at this moment) a huge amount of fencesitters who are basing their opinions on what they are reading or hearing RIGHT NOW. And we all know that once they've made up their minds there will be no changing them. Now is hardly the time for firearm owners to be sitting on their hands. We cannot afford to lose these people to the currently prevailing dialogue.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=646135&highlight=prophet

I've been following the whole Starbucks fiasco from the get go and have been called many nasty names; I have yet to experience any attempt by someone from the other side to engage in proper, intelligent debate with me over the issue even though I've made my best efforts to be polite yet straightforward. It's hopeless. But at least we're winning and Starbucks is willing to allow 2A supporters to have this dialogue.

Stay on the high-road going forward, folks. Use proper spelling, capitalization and punctuation, and always be reasonable and polite; don't worry so much about how your posts will impact the other side because they're pretty much a lost cause. Think about how your posts will sway passersby. Show them that we are indeed the educated and well-reasoned side of the debate. However, don't be afraid to put some bite into your arguments if necessary. It is possible to do this without coming off as a smart-aleck. The terms hso posted above are a good place to start.

Lucifer_Sam is absolutely right. I've swayed a couple of fence-sitters over the past couple of hours, and those couple of fence-sitters are worth it to me. I have MSNBC, ABC, FOX and CNN streaming right into my facebook so I can see what the media is putting out and can respond to it.

"From the receivers point of view, there are three elements of communication from which he will take his cues. The truth carries a weight of only 7-10 percent of your total impact. Your very message, which you may see as the most important part of the process, is the least considered factor." -Verbal Judo, the gentle art of persuasion by George Thompson

The author goes on to explain how voice, body language and other non-verbals account for the remaining 90 percent of your verbal interaction. The receiver pays less attention to what you're saying and more to how you're actually saying it. This can translate over to how you write things on the internet. Watch your tone, be respectful and empathetic. Excellent read, I recommend it to everyone. It's available at the library, though I had to obtain mine through inter-library loan.

 

[plunge]

every post that had anything to do with guns and the conn. shooting were pro 2A on my facebook wall. just the area i live i guess. plus i only have people i actually know and get along with on my facebook.

 

[Trent]

I've been swaying a LOT of people on Facebook in the last 24 hours.

I'm seeing more pro-gun than anti-gun rhetoric now, but still there's very stubborn people arguing from an emotional perspective.

To the die-hards, I'm saying "Why don't you cool off for a few days, come talk to me when we can talk logic and reason, instead of knee jerk emotion."

Usually shuts them up.

In the last 24 hours here's some of the stuff I've seen (and argued against):

If a gun dealer sells a gun to a psychopath, and that psychopath kills a room full of children, he should be fined or incarcerated.

Remind me again why a device capable of killing 20 children in minutes is legal, and a plant capable of actually helping people is still illegal.

Second amendment does not guarantee what kind of arms we get to carry. You cannot have an rpg or loaded abrams tank. We could make repubs and dems agree on something. We close the border to make repubs happy and stop smuggling of guns so we can stop the illegal supply. Then we make any gun illegal that you don't have to cock or reload between each shot.

(This next one was from a comment I made about guns PRIOR to the shooting event happening, when I was talking about taking my children to the range for practice.)

All those poor kids DIED today for your "sport" or hobby to remain legal dude, but hey if they make you FEEL safe right. I say **** people and their guns, take them all from the public, unless its a HUNTING RIFLE.

So maybe limiting sales of a .223 caliber rifle would be a nice common sense regulation too

And so on.. and so on...

 

[Isaac-1]

As I see it you should not debate the mob, instead focus on one individual, one that feels strongly anti gun, but does not know why usually works best. Then in slow bits that they can tolerate without throwing a tantrum slowly shift their views.

 

[Poper]

Interestingly my wife suggested that the cause of the children's deaths were not guns but the government school. If kids were home schooled and not collected together in a gun free zone, none of this would have happened.

The fact that there are nuts out there will never be changed. It is impossible to make life safe from deranged individuals. Tragedies will happen. We must learn to live with and cope with life's tragedies.

IMHO, removing freedom and liberty from life is not the answer.

Poper

 

[fehhkk]

I know it's a waste of time, but I like to engage in debates with rational people. The gun control debate is a fascinating subject to me, because I get to understand where people come from, and what their reasonings are.

Like most of you guys, I like taking debates without the emotional factor. As soon as someone starts to become irrational (this girl said "I WANT GUNS BANNED") I try to inject logic into them. I know in the very end they won't give a rat butt of what I said, but I least I got them to look and at least, maybe, think a little about it. I feel a little better at least educating some people in a rational way.

 

[HOOfan_1]

It's the worst thing you could do right now is argue the gun topic, let cooler heads prevail and let the argument evolve naturally. Both sides are very riled up now.

Arguing with the other side...yes. But the antis are our there trying to get the ear of anyone who will listen. We can't let our inactivity be our downfall.

I seriously don't think anyone will change their mind on this issue. I don't think there are any fence sitters either. There may be some Zumbos out there who are gun advocates, but who want, or don't mind another AWB...but to me those people are more dangerous than the rabid antis.

 

[mike.h]

Please don't lump all of us that live on the left coast into the same category. We are fighting a loosing battle out here with the gun nuts and public land closure. What we lose here is lost for the whole nation.

I would like to see something on the idea that these killers don't get their name and face in the news. To heck with their try at infamy.

 

[Prophet]

Interestingly my wife suggested that the cause of the children's deaths were not guns but the government school. If kids were home schooled and not collected together in a gun free zone, none of this would have happened.

True. My three brothers and I were homeschooled partly for this reason. Each time a potential threat presented itself at home throughout our childhoods, my parents always had firearms on hand to protect us and we were taught to use and handle them safely as soon as we were old enough. Protecting your little ones is much easier from the home. Political correctness has made it impossible for our teachers to protect them at school. Personally, I believe any sane parent at this point will begin looking into the numerous advantages of the homeschooling community. I'm not talking about cyber-school, which offers a lot of great programs but allows the gov't a means to usurp the rights of traditional homeschoolers. There are many misconceptions floating around out there concerning traditional homeschooling. It doesn't have to be a solo endeavor, there are some great organized communities available that can be used as a support group of sorts. Families pull together and help teach each other's children their professions and educational strengths, resulting in a well-rounded and practical education.

Out of all the kids I know who've attended all twelve years in our public school district only one (a good friend of mine) ended up with a well-rounded combination of education and common sense, but that's because his parents were very involved people. Most of the others I know can't even name the amendments to the Constitution, let alone tell you what the Constitution is, and I'm not exaggerating. There is no way my kids will be involved in our local public education system.

Glad to hear that others are working hard and changing minds. Keep up the good fight!

 

[NavyLCDR]

Anybody can buy a car from anywhere without any background check at all, and across state lines too. And I can know full well that the person I am selling a car to has 10 DUI's and no driver's license but it is still legal for me to sell a car to them. Almost twice as many people are killed every year by people committing criminal acts with vehicles than people committing criminal acts with guns. Ask the Facebook posters to explain why they don't want to regulate vehicles the same way they want to regulate guns. I can tell you why. They may not have any guns in their house, but I bet they have a vehicle in the drive way and they wouldn't want their vehicle regulated the same way they want guns regulated.

 

[Neverwinter]

Interestingly my wife suggested that the cause of the children's deaths were not guns but the government school. If kids were home schooled and not collected together in a gun free zone, none of this would have happened.

Along with schools and malls, churches are the most likely places for spree killings to occur. Perhaps people should worship at home and not collected in a place where it is so easy to be attacked.