DocUSMCRetired
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Cali, and others. This is what we are trying to accomplish. Something that is affordable to the general public, that can push the limits of what people believe a lever action can do.
Lever Actions.
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WestKentucky
Member
There has yet to be a truly successful box - fed levergun. BLR is close. There are plenty other, very good options available in pistol caliber carbines. 357 max to name an exemplary round, 44 mag is another. Other new rounds such as 7-30 waters have came and gone with no real fanfare. This has been beaten to death...for once I will agree with the masses and say that the 30-30 is as good of a production gun as you will get. Yes there's room for improvement, yes there are other calibers, no there's not enough market to interest any major manufacturers.
alientrainwreck
Member
I love my leverguns, I own 5 of them 2 have been modifide, 454 trapper carbine, 45-70, win 30-30, 30-30 Akley Improved and a wildcat that I must make brass for its a 357 fugget wich was developed by my local Gun smith which is a 454 casull necked down to a. 357.. I have been loading a lot lately for the 30-30AI using the flextip bullets from hornady the 140gn GMX and the leverlution Powder It is very impressive combo, soft recoil to... its a 336 shotting like a 308win .
Sheepdog1968
Member
Out of curiosity I bought some of the reduced recoil 30-30 rounds. It literally felt like I was shooting a 223. I'd be inclined to go that round with a youth shooter.
RPRNY
Member
Super Light recoil round for 30-30 is the 30 carbine 110 gr bullet over a case full, but not compressed, of Trail Boss. No kick, fine out to 100 yards for paper and a great little varmint round. Even lighter is the 86 gr Mauser short jacket but they are fiddly to load.
BCRider
Member
Looking at the Hodgdon reloading date website it looks like light staring loads of IMR3031 behind a 110gn .30Carbine bullet produces a low pressure too.
H4895 and H4198 are also powders that are tolerant of light loading. The Hodgdon Cowboy manual lists 160gn cast lead bullets being pushed by only 17.5gns of 4895 to give 1300fps at a peak pressure of just 15,200CUP. Now THAT would be a soft hit to the shoulder as well.
So there's lots of options for loading light in the lever rifles we already have. No need to wait for some company to make something new.
Then there's the handgun caliber lever rifles that can shoot any loads from very mild to pretty wild.
H4895 and H4198 are also powders that are tolerant of light loading. The Hodgdon Cowboy manual lists 160gn cast lead bullets being pushed by only 17.5gns of 4895 to give 1300fps at a peak pressure of just 15,200CUP. Now THAT would be a soft hit to the shoulder as well.
So there's lots of options for loading light in the lever rifles we already have. No need to wait for some company to make something new.
Then there's the handgun caliber lever rifles that can shoot any loads from very mild to pretty wild.
T.R.
Member
Winchester's 7-30 was intended to provide a flat shooting levergun featuring a 7mm bullet. But it never really sold well and this cartridge is fading.
Years ago, I handled a custom Savage model 99 that had been rebarelled to a wildcat cartridge. This cartridge featured a 270 bullet loaded into a modified 300 Savage case. The owner had many great things to say about this low recoil but hard hitting cartridge.
I handled another wildcat rifle which featured the 225 case necked up to 257. This cartridge exceeded 250 Savage velocities.
TR
Years ago, I handled a custom Savage model 99 that had been rebarelled to a wildcat cartridge. This cartridge featured a 270 bullet loaded into a modified 300 Savage case. The owner had many great things to say about this low recoil but hard hitting cartridge.
I handled another wildcat rifle which featured the 225 case necked up to 257. This cartridge exceeded 250 Savage velocities.
TR
You're dancing around the elephant in the room.
6.8SPC. If you can consider the 6.5 G, then 6.8 is equally doable, and the better cartridge for the typical lever gun application.
As for the pointed nose debate, the lever gun has used a spiral feed tube before, just tip the nose off center and be done with it. Don't expect that feature to be cheap, tho. Reduce the cost the same way the BLR does - use the M16 barrel extension. You immediately toss out the requirement for a heavy receiver that has to tie the bolt and barrel together.
Add a SAFE action trigger and dispense with all the cross bolt nonsense or lever activated one.
If they can design a pump AR15, using just the parts necessary for lever action means a light compact rifle akin to the BLR - with some better style, like the Win 94 - and with a lot less cost. And you CAN free float the barrel.
It's all been done, nobody has put it all together yet. When you combine features is when a firearm becomes something more than the sum of it's parts. A lever with barrel extension significantly drops the costs of manufacture and assembly, at that point why not drop forge the single receiver from alloy? A simple cover plate would dress it up quick enough just like the Nylon 66 and give you all the finish options.
The real problem is that the market for selling a new lever gun isn't there. It's the age of the AR, younger buyers aren't flocking to traditional guns, and those legislatures forcing some citizens to use only traditional firearms are testing their Constitutional limits. If you tell the people they can't have something then the independently minded take it as a challenge.
To market a new lever gun it would take hauling down a SASS championship and having some game records publicized with it being used. What's been done lately? Elk with 6.5 and 6.8 gets more press - alternate AR calibers.
The makers don't see enough demand, Winchester already closed it's doors and went custom and collectible to Japan years ago. At best we might congratulate a smith who can hodgepodge the parts together. He will likely CNC his own receiver.
6.8SPC. If you can consider the 6.5 G, then 6.8 is equally doable, and the better cartridge for the typical lever gun application.
As for the pointed nose debate, the lever gun has used a spiral feed tube before, just tip the nose off center and be done with it. Don't expect that feature to be cheap, tho. Reduce the cost the same way the BLR does - use the M16 barrel extension. You immediately toss out the requirement for a heavy receiver that has to tie the bolt and barrel together.
Add a SAFE action trigger and dispense with all the cross bolt nonsense or lever activated one.
If they can design a pump AR15, using just the parts necessary for lever action means a light compact rifle akin to the BLR - with some better style, like the Win 94 - and with a lot less cost. And you CAN free float the barrel.
It's all been done, nobody has put it all together yet. When you combine features is when a firearm becomes something more than the sum of it's parts. A lever with barrel extension significantly drops the costs of manufacture and assembly, at that point why not drop forge the single receiver from alloy? A simple cover plate would dress it up quick enough just like the Nylon 66 and give you all the finish options.
The real problem is that the market for selling a new lever gun isn't there. It's the age of the AR, younger buyers aren't flocking to traditional guns, and those legislatures forcing some citizens to use only traditional firearms are testing their Constitutional limits. If you tell the people they can't have something then the independently minded take it as a challenge.
To market a new lever gun it would take hauling down a SASS championship and having some game records publicized with it being used. What's been done lately? Elk with 6.5 and 6.8 gets more press - alternate AR calibers.
The makers don't see enough demand, Winchester already closed it's doors and went custom and collectible to Japan years ago. At best we might congratulate a smith who can hodgepodge the parts together. He will likely CNC his own receiver.
I must admit the lure of the 6.5 in a lever is strong.
Back when 7mm was all the rage Winchester made the 94 in 7-30 waters which suffered in sales up to the point of where it is now. Although better than the 30-30 in most ways, sales never ever came anywhere close to the old 30-30.
In the early 60's Winchester 88 in .284 which Savage quickly adopted for their
mod. 99 lever action. As impressive as the .284 was, it never took off.
Although the 99 in .284 used rifle prices typically start at $1000 and more, that is a whole lot of quality American quality in a first class cartridge.
The .284 has now been rediscovered and is winning F-class matches with authority. The 6.5 /284 is based on the .284.
Find a used Winnie 94 in 7-30 Waters and you will be very close to what you want for not a lot of money. Should be able to land a nice used one for around $500-$600 if you look around.
Back when 7mm was all the rage Winchester made the 94 in 7-30 waters which suffered in sales up to the point of where it is now. Although better than the 30-30 in most ways, sales never ever came anywhere close to the old 30-30.
In the early 60's Winchester 88 in .284 which Savage quickly adopted for their
mod. 99 lever action. As impressive as the .284 was, it never took off.
Although the 99 in .284 used rifle prices typically start at $1000 and more, that is a whole lot of quality American quality in a first class cartridge.
The .284 has now been rediscovered and is winning F-class matches with authority. The 6.5 /284 is based on the .284.
Find a used Winnie 94 in 7-30 Waters and you will be very close to what you want for not a lot of money. Should be able to land a nice used one for around $500-$600 if you look around.
Speedo66
Member
I've had a Browning BLR in .308 for several decades, have yet to find a negative.
WestKentucky said "There has yet to be a truly successful box - fed levergun. BLR is close."
Still in continuous production all this time, I'd call that successful.
These are the currently available cartridges, seems like there would be something there for almost everyone, including a younger shooter.
7mm-08 Rem
7mm Rem Mag
450 Mar
358 Win
325 WSM
308 Win
300 WSM
300 Win Mag
30-06 Spfld
270 WSM
270 Win
243 Win
223 Rem
22-250 Rem
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GooseGestapo
Member
- Joined
- Jan 6, 2003
- Messages
- 6,153
I'm a lever affectionado. Got several.
.22lr, .30.30 (x2), .338ME (x2), .35Rem.,.358win., .45Colt, .45/70.
I prefer them as I shoot long guns left-handed.
Indeed the .338ME is marvelous. Shot my MX yesterday. I've got two, one's an MX and see's only 220gr RNGC cast and 250gr RN Hornady's as they shoot to same point of impact. The MXLR is sighted for the Hornady 200gr FTX at factory velocities which with my rifle is a tad over 2,600fps or .30/06 180gr performance level. Both wear Leupolds low mounted. Point like shotguns. It's (MXLR) standing next to the back door in case a deer wanders across the back side of my property. (got 3 already this season with variety of rifles; it's the MXLR's turn, now).
I doubt the .260 will ever make an appearance in the BLR. I've got a BLR '81 (steel reciever) in .358. It does have significant "issues". The trigger is HORRIBLE !!! Not real heavy, but "miles and miles" of creep. Almost like shooting a Glock or double action revolver.
And, it won't take "high pressure" loads. The .358 never was loaded to over 50,000cup. Loads in mine that approach "bolt action" loads will start giving difficult extraction.
It's got excellent "hunting" accuracy. The most accurate load I've found is the 200gr Hornady PtSpt over 48.0gr of H4895 for ~2,550fps. I've killed two deer with it. Excellent terminal performace. I took the factory Browing 1.75" "rubber block" Pachmayer recoil pad off and installed a Boyds 1/2" pad. WOW! What an improvement! Took close to 8oz off the weight and shifted the balance foward. With Leupold 2x-7x Vari-X II scope it weights about 7.5lbs. If only I could give it a trigger like the Marlin have !!! (3lbs "crisp")
Oh Well.... sigh.....
But, for practical purposes now that I've got two .338ME's, it's a "safe queen". This morning I hunted with my "all time favorite", a Marlin M336 in .35Rem. The .35 with an RCBS.360" 200gr FNGC over 38.5gr of BLC2 will give 1,950fps and near MOA. Did it with "reject" hollow-pointed rounds yesterday... 5 in or touching a 1" target dot. I raised the scope 6 clicks and called it "good". (+1.5" at 100yds). I was resighting it with a Nikon 2x-7x "ProHunter" I re-installed on it. I like low powered compact scopes for hunting. and handles like a dream.
I've got a .260Rem, and it's a "shooter", but, the 7mm-08 is plainly superior. (Both are Rem. Mod-7's w/20"bbl's). With a 150gr bullet from 7mm-08, I get the same velocities as the .260 with 120's. Better "whop" on the deer, too. Like the old "hot-rodders" used to say, "there's no replacement for displacement". Unfortunately, Remington chose to use a 1/10" twist with the .260, not even a 1/9" like some report. It won't group with a 129gr or heavier Tipped Boat-tail such as Hornady SST or Nosler Ballistic Tips. Shoots flat-based 140's and 160gr Sierra's "ok", though.
From your orginal post, a BLR "with a trigger job", if thats possible, and reduced loads or cast bullet loads with stock shortened for "youth", is probably what you're looking for.
Actually, "MY" solution for your "wants" is a Marlin M336 Youth in .30/30. When he "grows up", you can order a full lenght stock, and store the short stock for use by "future generations"...
BTW; the stock on my Marlin/Glenfield M30 already has a shortened stock for the "grand son", whenever/if, I get one. 7.5gr of Unique under Lee .311" FNGC w/o gas check and tumble-lubed taught my nephew to love to shoot. He used to shoot "coffee cans" full of them through my brothers M94 Winchester. Sound like a "bass .22cb" load. Bullet hitting can is louder than muzzle report.
.22lr, .30.30 (x2), .338ME (x2), .35Rem.,.358win., .45Colt, .45/70.
I prefer them as I shoot long guns left-handed.
Indeed the .338ME is marvelous. Shot my MX yesterday. I've got two, one's an MX and see's only 220gr RNGC cast and 250gr RN Hornady's as they shoot to same point of impact. The MXLR is sighted for the Hornady 200gr FTX at factory velocities which with my rifle is a tad over 2,600fps or .30/06 180gr performance level. Both wear Leupolds low mounted. Point like shotguns. It's (MXLR) standing next to the back door in case a deer wanders across the back side of my property. (got 3 already this season with variety of rifles; it's the MXLR's turn, now).
I doubt the .260 will ever make an appearance in the BLR. I've got a BLR '81 (steel reciever) in .358. It does have significant "issues". The trigger is HORRIBLE !!! Not real heavy, but "miles and miles" of creep. Almost like shooting a Glock or double action revolver.
And, it won't take "high pressure" loads. The .358 never was loaded to over 50,000cup. Loads in mine that approach "bolt action" loads will start giving difficult extraction.
It's got excellent "hunting" accuracy. The most accurate load I've found is the 200gr Hornady PtSpt over 48.0gr of H4895 for ~2,550fps. I've killed two deer with it. Excellent terminal performace. I took the factory Browing 1.75" "rubber block" Pachmayer recoil pad off and installed a Boyds 1/2" pad. WOW! What an improvement! Took close to 8oz off the weight and shifted the balance foward. With Leupold 2x-7x Vari-X II scope it weights about 7.5lbs. If only I could give it a trigger like the Marlin have !!! (3lbs "crisp")
Oh Well.... sigh.....
But, for practical purposes now that I've got two .338ME's, it's a "safe queen". This morning I hunted with my "all time favorite", a Marlin M336 in .35Rem. The .35 with an RCBS.360" 200gr FNGC over 38.5gr of BLC2 will give 1,950fps and near MOA. Did it with "reject" hollow-pointed rounds yesterday... 5 in or touching a 1" target dot. I raised the scope 6 clicks and called it "good". (+1.5" at 100yds). I was resighting it with a Nikon 2x-7x "ProHunter" I re-installed on it. I like low powered compact scopes for hunting. and handles like a dream.
I've got a .260Rem, and it's a "shooter", but, the 7mm-08 is plainly superior. (Both are Rem. Mod-7's w/20"bbl's). With a 150gr bullet from 7mm-08, I get the same velocities as the .260 with 120's. Better "whop" on the deer, too. Like the old "hot-rodders" used to say, "there's no replacement for displacement". Unfortunately, Remington chose to use a 1/10" twist with the .260, not even a 1/9" like some report. It won't group with a 129gr or heavier Tipped Boat-tail such as Hornady SST or Nosler Ballistic Tips. Shoots flat-based 140's and 160gr Sierra's "ok", though.
From your orginal post, a BLR "with a trigger job", if thats possible, and reduced loads or cast bullet loads with stock shortened for "youth", is probably what you're looking for.
Actually, "MY" solution for your "wants" is a Marlin M336 Youth in .30/30. When he "grows up", you can order a full lenght stock, and store the short stock for use by "future generations"...
BTW; the stock on my Marlin/Glenfield M30 already has a shortened stock for the "grand son", whenever/if, I get one. 7.5gr of Unique under Lee .311" FNGC w/o gas check and tumble-lubed taught my nephew to love to shoot. He used to shoot "coffee cans" full of them through my brothers M94 Winchester. Sound like a "bass .22cb" load. Bullet hitting can is louder than muzzle report.
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CaliCoastie
Member
- Joined
- Jun 24, 2010
- Messages
- 497
i think there is a call for it in a set amount of calibers, to me? to make it cheap enough to get a big draw could be challanging. calibers i would be interested in are more along the lines of traditional calibers, pistol ones really. like i said before the 460sw, and then the 41mag or 357 can be challanging to find.
stiab
Member
- Joined
- Dec 9, 2007
- Messages
- 638
That's a strange statement. Not sure how you define "successful", my M99 and M88 are very successful in my way of thinking. They were manufactured for many years and are still highly sought after today, as is the Sako. The BLR speaks for itself, of course.
ECVMatt
Member
- Joined
- Jan 7, 2004
- Messages
- 2,867
I make a load using the 130 grain Speer bullet: http://www.midwayusa.com/product/31...ain-flat-nose-box-of-100?cm_vc=ProductFinding
While it is not a 6.5, it shoots plenty far for a levergun and hits hard enough to be lethal. These loads have very little recoil as well; perfect for a youth or light statured shooter.
I love custom guns and seeing folks have dream guns built, but I can't see this being a big seller with the traditional levergun crowd. In the BLR, it would work great!
For me, the .30-30 is relatively cheap to buy, found everywhere, easy to reload, I have a ton of cases, lots of different bullets to play with, and it just plain works.
While it is not a 6.5, it shoots plenty far for a levergun and hits hard enough to be lethal. These loads have very little recoil as well; perfect for a youth or light statured shooter.
I love custom guns and seeing folks have dream guns built, but I can't see this being a big seller with the traditional levergun crowd. In the BLR, it would work great!
For me, the .30-30 is relatively cheap to buy, found everywhere, easy to reload, I have a ton of cases, lots of different bullets to play with, and it just plain works.
Vern Humphrey
Member
Winchester still produces the Model 95 from time to time, and it has a box magazine. And if we could get Savage to produce the Model 99 again, its spool magazine will take any bullet style.
Won't happen with Savage.
The same guy who made such a name for himself by sailing into New Haven in '06 with his "Save Winchester!" campaign (and went on to found the highly successful Merwin Hulbert resurrection) was trying to put something together with Savage on a re-intro of the '99.
Went nowhere.
The '99 would be too expensive for today's market at any level of quality that people would buy in volume.
The Miroku '95s are well made, but only run intermittently, and I remember when they were showing up at CDNN at bargain basement prices because "Winchester" couldn't move 'em. Doubt you'll see many more made, and it's extremely doubtful they'd be in the calibers under discussion if they are produced again. Just too little demand in that market segment.
Denis
The same guy who made such a name for himself by sailing into New Haven in '06 with his "Save Winchester!" campaign (and went on to found the highly successful Merwin Hulbert resurrection) was trying to put something together with Savage on a re-intro of the '99.
Went nowhere.
The '99 would be too expensive for today's market at any level of quality that people would buy in volume.
The Miroku '95s are well made, but only run intermittently, and I remember when they were showing up at CDNN at bargain basement prices because "Winchester" couldn't move 'em. Doubt you'll see many more made, and it's extremely doubtful they'd be in the calibers under discussion if they are produced again. Just too little demand in that market segment.
Denis
Shame about the Savage M99, I wish I had purchased one when they were "cheap". Of the traditional lever actions, the M99 could be chambered in a high pressure round. I consider the 308 Win a modern, high pressure round, and the M99 was chambered in that cartridge. A M99 in a 6.5 cartridge, like the 260 Rem, would make an interesting combination.
I handled Win M1895's. They were heavy, iron sights only. The Savage M99 can be scoped.
I handled Win M1895's. They were heavy, iron sights only. The Savage M99 can be scoped.
Vern Humphrey
Member
The M99 Savage has a very short receiver. It cannot take a cartridge any longer than the .308 (the 7.62X51mm NATO) -- in fact, Savage had to slightly open up some space in the rear of the receiver to allow them to offer the M99 in .308. So the M99 could be offered in .260 Rem (which is based on the .308 case) but not a cartridge like the 6.5X55 Swede.
theotherwaldo
Member
I amused myself for a while by designing an AR-based lever-action carbine with a 10-round closed-bottom box magazine. It had a loading hatch that was vaguely reminiscent of a Krag and used an almost stock AR upper with the gas port blocked and a little machine work on the bolt carrier to connect it with the lever.
.223 Lev-AR, anyone?
.223 Lev-AR, anyone?
Sheepdog1968
Member
I would love to see a photo of it.
Deog
Member
[[B]rowning [/B]LR is a fine magizine fed lever gun[/B]
alientrainwreck
Member
If their were to be a 6.5 levergun I would bet it would be marlin extending their Leverlution line of ammo eating rifles in something like a modded version of the 6.5 ariska, 6.5 ×54 mannlicher, or 6.5×55 improved wich was not done by Akley, of course the cartridge would be called something like the
6.5 Marlin. ,.....maybe or maybe not But if they build one I will buy one...
6.5 Marlin. ,.....maybe or maybe not But if they build one I will buy one...
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