Liberals are everywhere these days (learning the truth about shooting)

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We have some crazy ideas about the role of government, and social issues, I get that, but it isn't because we're (all) allergic to thinking.

We're increasingly hunters, marksmen, gun store customers, and defenders of our families.

When we learn about the joy that collecting or marksmanship provides, the tremendous investment required, the importance of hunting for wildlife conservation and management, we care, and our minds are changed.

Please understand and accept that true advocacy for the Second Amendment is utterly incompatible with any leftist ideology or movement that advocates for anything associated with big government or for the use of state power for the construction of socialism, or to the belief that the state must be appropriated and used to ensure the success of a socialist revolution.

The right to keep and bear arms derives from our duty to retain the basic means necessary to defend our country, our liberty, and certain fundamental rights secured to us by the Constitution of the United States of America.

In our defense of Second Amendment rights, we must emphasize the fundamental purpose of the amendment. If we leave the impression that we think that the right to keep and bear arms concerns hunting and sports shooting, thwarting your general street-level criminal, and giving Americans a fun, interesting, and educational hobby, we will actually contribute to the false view that the Second Amendment is a historical curiosity!
 
I'm torn in politics. While I want to preserve our 2A rights, I'm disgusted by the rhetoric from the Right against LGBT issues, and equally disgusted by the Left over excessively wasteful welfare programs and a "nanny state" attitude.
That's pretty much where I'm at. To the OP, I'm an AR owner, USPSA shooter and CHL holder who has more posts on Democratic Underground than I do on THR.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/benEzra
http://www.democraticunderground.com/~benEzra

I'm a registered independent and fairly lefty on social issues, though not on fiscal issues (I'm not a fan of magical thinking), and I'm pro-freedom across the board, so I don't really fit into either party at the moment.

Having said that, the Democratic party leadership's shift toward all-out fascism on the gun issue since 2010-2012 is deeply disturbing, and I honestly think that another 1994 may be necessary before the party can be pried out of the hands of the Third Way zealots. Open talk of forced gun confiscation, and demonization of even Sanders' prior anti-gun positions as not extreme enough, pretty much says that Bloomberg/Wall Street and the Joyce Foundation own the party on that issue right now, and they are carpet-bombing liberal and independent gun owners and want us gone. And what happened in Maryland, Connecticut, and Colorado is worrisome for any gun owner, liberal or not.

Liberals who don't support imposing fundamentalist anti-gun views on other citizens at gunpoint need to speak up loudly against this nonsense. The DLC and DNC are playing a game right now that they don't even begin to understand.
 
A little clarification

The two closets: gun ownership around other libs, liberal tendencies around gun shops.

We don't all only vote one way any more than anybody else. I for one plan to follow Obama's plea this year, and vote only on gun-control, we've had some lefty leadership, some progress was made on social issues important to me, and now I'm going to protect (and hopefully reduce the cost of) firearms. I'm voting 2A.

No, I don't generally think that our policies really are "crazy" but I respect that you won't all see where I'm coming from on lots of things, and am, hopefully with a touch of humor, recognizing that we don't have to have the same perspective on everything to get along civilly. I understand that you may think your solutions to these problems are better than mine, but I hold the same conviction you do, and only ask that if you do think I'm wrong, you not say I'm stupid or evil as a result. I'll vote for whatever I think is most under threat.

Yes I am a member of the NRA, yes I write to representatives (who listen because I can vote in their primary) when something like the threat to ban mail-order ammunition comes up. But on issues that aren't related to the bearing of arms, I start to hold differing opinions.

Of course not all to the left will listen to reason or patient explanation, but more and more of us will. I did, and many of my friends have been lately. But the process stalls out when we go to a public range or gun store and there's audible, non-constructive vitriol. My point there was to say "we are turning up in places that only you guys used to be, when we are there, we have a chance to learn (with the exception of crackpots with signs) and a little extra patience and care can change a mind." Changed minds may not be changed votes, but they do make up "public opinion." The less the left cares about lawful gun owners who are at worst, not a threat to them, and at best keeping them safe, the less support that gungrabbers will get by pounding on that single issue.

Sorry if I'm not being sufficiently concise, I've a lot I've wanted to say for a long time, about pretty much one thing, and I've gotten a very substantial and respectful response, so pretty beefy posts result. thanks/sorry
 
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long term

The long term protection of 2A rights won't be won so long as the plan is for the republicans to win every election forever. It will only be safe once nonsense gun laws, written by the uninformed, are widely understood to be useless when not harmful. Democrats need to be involved in that process in a greater role than just losing elections.
 
The long term protection of 2A rights won't be won so long as the plan is for the republicans to win every election forever. It will only be safe once nonsense gun laws, written by the uninformed, are widely understood to be useless when not harmful. Democrats need to be involved in that process in a greater role than just losing elections.


You are correct.

But when the rubber meets the road are you willing to let the Democrats lose enough elections over it in order to "retrain" them on 2a?
 
When we get called names, told we're all idiots, or cursed at, the gun lobby looks like the kind of big scary armed threat that inspires knee-jerk nonsense gun policy that nobody benefits from.

No, it shouldn't be your responsibility to be patient with is, but it does make a huge difference. Be stewards of a cause when you can. We vote, and we're starting to care about something very dear to you, show us instead of insulting us and we could see the uninformed anti-gun movement dwindle into insignificance.
It's important to understand that the differing firearm policies between conservatives and liberals are an outshoot of the fundamental differences in the foundational philosophy of the two groups. It's not just an issue of tradition or preference.

One of the foundations of the liberal philosophy is that government size & power needs to be increased to help solve the problems of the people. That philosophy is fundamentally orthogonal to the idea of putting guns into the hands of the people so that they can solve their own problems and retain power over the government.

Here's a hypothetical situation. I have a Kia, my neighbor has a Ford. I have a Kia because I like the color and the way the car looks in the driveway. My neighbor has a Ford because he believes in American industry, and because he believes reducing the trade imbalance is critical. He votes for political candidates that support his views. I generally vote for the opposite candidate because other things are important to me. We argue about trade policy and domestic industry.

So Ford comes out with a car that is the same color as mine and it looks good to me. I need a new car and I buy it. Then I go over to my neighbor and tell him that now he should be happy and embrace me because I have a car that's the same brand has his. The problem is that our views still differ fundamentally and we still support different candidates based on that fundamental difference. He's is happy to see that some dollars went to American industry and not overseas, but he's still not happy because I'm voting for and otherwise supporting candidates that are opposed to his beliefs and working to destroy what he sees as important.

In the same way, it's encouraging to see that some liberals understand some of the benefits of gun ownership, but the fact that they "like the color and think it looks good in the driveway" doesn't change the fact that they're still supporting politicians who are working to destroy what the gun community believes is critically important.
 
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JohnKSa said:
It's important to understand that the differing firearm policies between conservatives and liberals are an outshoot of the fundamental differences in the foundational philosophy of the two groups ...

So Ford comes out with a car that is the same color as mine and it looks good to me. I need a new car and I buy it. Then I go over to my neighbor and tell him that now he should be happy and embrace me because I have a car that's the same brand [as] his. The problem is that our views still differ fundamentally and we still support different candidates based on that fundamental difference.
+1.

Many of my coworkers are Democrats and I have always been open about 2A/RKBA. Over the years, many of them have become gun owners and asked me to teach them how to shoot. I always accommodate these requests and when I ask what changed, they all say they were either victims of crime/robbery or now know someone who has been victimized and police/911 can't help them when the threat is at their door and now want to support 2A/RKBA.

But just because they became gun owners with carry permits does not mean they will stop being Democrats. I know we will continue to disagree on core principles and will vote for different candidates but I tell them if they want to support 2A/RKBA, support NRA by making generous donations and spreading the word that 2A/RKBA is not necessarily a party issue but "rights" issue.
 
Sounds to me like you guys might need to start a civil war of sorts, rather than essentially asking us to try harder to win more of you over.

seems much more likely to work if nothing else.
Absolutely, the ball is more in my court than yours, but basic, minimally intrusive effort would advance your goals more than vinegar.
 
The long term protection of 2A rights won't be won so long as the plan is for the republicans to win every election forever. It will only be safe once nonsense gun laws, written by the uninformed, are widely understood to be useless when not harmful. Democrats need to be involved in that process in a greater role than just losing elections.


I agree wholeheartedly. The only problem is how do you make the party see the error in their thinking without making them lose elections?

I myself hold some beliefs that people here would call liberal. I, however, will NOT vote for any politicians that support any form of expanded gun control.
 
Honey and Venom:

Welcome to The High Road.

You posted some insightful words, and I appreciate that. What America needs is balance. As I see it, many people fail to understand that the Constitution and Bill of Rights really are about self-determination. I have the right to choose to own firearms, as much as the next person has the right to not own firearms. What right does not exist, is for me to force my will on others, or others to force their will on me. Tolerance, and common sense will go a long way. As to winning over people who are not pro-firearm, educate them. Take them shooting. It is catching really. Most people enjoy it.

Geno
 
I personally have a hard time understanding how anyone passionate about their rights, especially as outlined in the Bill of Rights, can be a Liberal, a Democrat, a RINO, or even a card carrying Republican based on where all of these groups have brought us to.

You support the 2d Amendment. That's great. But what about the 1st? Or the 4th? Or the most important one in my mind, the 10th?

I am a 1 issue voter. My issue is Liberty. I want a Nation where the Federal Gov lets people live their lives and let the community set the rules.

We were NOT founded as a Nation with a strong central gov. We were founded as a Nation is States. And States, in our founders eyes, were the primary level for which the rules were set.

The scary trend happening today is "laws" being written by Executive Branch regulatory agencies and the 9 judges on the SCOTUS
 
Honey and Venom:



Welcome to The High Road.



You posted some insightful words, and I appreciate that. What America needs is balance. As I see it, many people fail to understand that the Constitution and Bill of Rights really are about self-determination. I have the right to choose to own firearms, as much as the next person has the right to not own firearms. What right does not exist, is for me to force my will on others, or others to force their will on me. Tolerance, and common sense will go a long way. As to winning over people who are not pro-firearm, educate them. Take them shooting. It is catching really. Most people enjoy it.



Geno


I agree with much of this, but not with the "balance" point. I don't want balance on the Constitution, I want adherence.

States can/should make what rules they want based their powers, but not the Feds.

Unfortunately, most Americans think compromise is good for our Nation, but only folks who seem to willingly compromise (for balance) are the knuckleheads with the "R" in front of their title...
 
Absolutely, the ball is more in my court than yours, but basic, minimally intrusive effort would advance your goals more than vinegar.

I vote. That's my minimally intrusive efforts.
I don't even try to connect with liberals any more with efforts to change their minds. It is an exercise in futility, IME.
I don't like having my genital size brought unexpectedly into the conversation, I don't like armchair psychologists that can evaluate me based solely on my ownership of firearms, and I don't like being told that I am OK with child murder.

Just look at where reality is (significant drops in violent crime, increased gun ownership)
And look at where the liberal party is going (australian-esque confiscation, efforts to increase ineffectual, "feel good" measures that restrict no one but the law abiding.)
The information is out there, the stats are available. Yet here we are.

Liberals are going to keep losing elections until they figure it out for themselves.

This is coming from someone who has voted liberal in the past on occasion and has no plans to do so again.
10 years ago political quizzes put me as an fiscally conservative, social liberal.
Now the same tests put me as a conservative leaning libertarian.
I haven't changed any of my beliefs.
They democratic party has just veered way left of where it was even 10 years ago.
The voice of gun owners aren't going to fix the democratic party any more than the voice of pro choice and LBTG is going to fix the republicans. Both will keep losing voters to these issues until either gets a clue.
 
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I'm a full time LEO in a major municipal agency, and am a firearms instructor for my agency. I'm also a card carrying Democrat and atheist. I'm basically about as far from the political and social views of most of the people I work with as you can get.

I find that there is an awful lot of vitriol from both sides of the fence with it flung back and forth with equal scorn from both sides. Anyone who works, lives, worships, etc. in a large group of people who share similar beliefs tends to descend into this trap (academia tends to the left, LE the right). If you work, live, worship, etc. as a member of a minority in a given group of people you very quickly abandon this behavior. The best is when there is parity in the numbers holding a given view, and everyone has to interact. People are forced to be much more thoughtful and respectful in their discourse. If we can get back to this as a common manner of discussion I think the country will be the better for it.

I'd recommend everyone take the time to get out of their comfort zone and actually spend sometime with people who don't agree with your world view sometimes. You might learn something, even if it's just that on certain issues you are going to disagree on.

-Jenrick
 
Honey and Venom, welcome to this forum. I hope you can get out of it what you put into it. As you can see, the members here are as diverse as any group of people out there but we all share a common vision.... keeping the government out of our lives as much as possible.

I am now 60 and have voted in every election since I turned 18. I do not think I can complain about how things are if I don't do my part. I do not follow any party line. I vote for who I feel best serves my interests.

Personally, I am sick of politics and politicians. Maybe you have noticed that when elections are approaching, the candidates don't talk about issues that are important to the people they represent. Political ads are now about mud-slinging and pointing out the warts of their competitors. This is neither productive or good for the people,

Also, every candidate tells us (the voters) what we want to hear, not what their own agenda is. Sure, you get those who give wishy-washy answers about the hot-button topics of the day but the bottom line is they all feed us BS until they get into office and then they do what their "supporters" want them to do. Politicians don't represent the masses.... the people... the everyday Joe, they represent the men and women who contribute to their bankroll and give them public votes of confidence and their support to get them elected. Politicians have their own agendas that are contrary to what we want and what we need. They (politicians) make back-door deals with other politicians to get their vote on a bill they sponsor so they can return the favor. They don't vote how we want them to, they vote to work the buddy system.

Politics is a sleazy business but we, the people, have to decide who is the least slimy and who will actually try to make a positive difference. This goes from the President down to the smallest town Mayor. It's not Dem vs Rep, it's big business vs big business and we, the people, pay the price for the decisions they make.

Yes, there are many hot-button topics that each candidate addresses but not many are more important than the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. I have become a one-issue voter because today it is the one that most shows me if someone is sincere or is providing lip service about how this country is supposed to work. Slotting yourself as left/right, liberal/conservative, Dem or Rep, etc. is nothing more than a label that has become muddied over the years. A generation or 2 ago we used to vote how our parents voted just because. Today it is not as black and white. However, when a presidential candidate states they they won't stop trying until we are disarmed is a very dangerous person that does not understand any of the rights we have, not just the 2nd. If #2 is no good to them then taking away #1 or #4 or any other right is not that far behind. I wish there was no more parties, just candidates who all stand up for what they believe in and we, the people, can choose on merit, not lip service.
 
First of all, thank you mods for not reflexively closing a frank discussion about the roles of the two parties in American politics and gun control :)

"We don't all only vote one way any more than anybody else. I for one plan to follow Obama's plea this year, and vote only on gun-control, we've had some lefty leadership, some progress was made on social issues important to me, and now I'm going to protect (and hopefully reduce the cost of) firearms. I'm voting 2A."

Well, just realize your initial support damn near got another round of reprisals saddled on us for generations to come (were there anyone more competent at managing the party affairs than Reed/Obama at the helm, Sandy Hook would have brought about severe federal level consequences, to say nothing of what might have happened had that shooting happened two years earlier when they had 2/3 of the House and Senate <shudder>). Luckily, we weren't doomed this time, though, and you got some of your wishes; win-tie rather than a win-win, I guess.

As far as claiming it ridiculous that Republicans are the only future of gun rights, consider this; it darn sure isn't with the Democrats at this point. The party, which has long had gun control as a central plank, appears to be going full throttle to add outright confiscation to the platform. None other than the figurehead of the party, Hillary, and every other candidate running (except for Webb who no one's heard of and is a newcomer) is claiming we need to emulate the largest gun-grabs in modern history, with the promise it will end gun violence. That's some pretty darn barren soil, there.

The future of gun rights (and gun policy in general, I reckon) lies with the Republican wing. The wing which, as we speak, is coalescing into two groups; one dedicated to a cadre of social issues and gripes with government solutions, much like the modern Democrat party, and one of much more libertarian/traditional American individualist leanings (the Democrat party has these too, but they most certainly do not hold any prominence in the party ranks). For fifty years, the (R) party has locked these two wings in combat against each other, leaving the party largely ineffective for multiple decades at a time, thus the predominant Democrat/liberal Republican leadership. It sure looks like the upstart Tea Party types may finally break this deadlock, and perhaps we'll end up with a new scenario in which the conservative/liberal social policy groups end up locking horns & not getting much done for a few decades, while the libertarian remainder in both parties takes on the leadership role to undo the damage wrought by generations of busy-bodies.

I suspect they'll still be called (R) and (D) to save on letterhead expenses, but it appears the two parties will by necessity undergo a very significant philosophical shift in the near future. Ideally, we'll end up with gun nuts and stoners lined up against tea-totalers & gun banners.

TCB
 
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The long term protection of 2A rights won't be won so long as the plan is for the republicans to win every election forever. It will only be safe once nonsense gun laws, written by the uninformed, are widely understood to be useless when not harmful. Democrats need to be involved in that process in a greater role than just losing elections.
"Foolish liberals who are trying to read the Second Amendment
out of the Constitution by claiming it's not an individual right or
that it's too much of a public safety hazard don't see the danger
in the big picture. They're courting disaster by encouraging others
to use the same means to eliminate portions of the Constitution they
don't like."
-- Alan Dershowitz (noted Harvard Law School professor)

David Kopel is a Democrat, who has waded neck deep in the sausage factory of legislative process as an erudite 2A champion.
http://www.cato.org/people/david-kopel
 
I do not know how good a job I can do of explaining this. I have reached an age where owning guns is not about guns. It is about self reliance. The only thing I really want from the government is to leave me alone & quit taking my money away so they can give it away to whoever they like. I do realize that government is a necessary evil but it is supposed to be our servant not our master.

I am a trade unionist. I have been in the trade since 1989. We were indoctrinated to vote Democrat by the union during our apprenticeship. I have no use whatsoever for the democratic party & if it were to self destruct tomorrow I would be happy. There was a time when I disliked republicans & despised Democrats now that has been reversed. Thanks to the current regime in Washington I will never vote Democrat again.
Honey & Venom I do not believe you will ever get the Democrat party to give up on gun control. That is because it is not about guns it is about control. I do not want the U.S. to become a communist country. That is what I believe is the goal of the Democrat party. To destroy the America I grew up in. You can hang out here. THR is a well moderated forum where you can learn a lot about firearms & hopefully some other stuff. There are some other firearms forums I frequent where you would not fare so well.
 
If you don't vote on the gun issue, using that as the primary or sole criterion, all talk about being "pro-gun" rings hollow.

After the Heller decision, some of us became complacent that gun rights were safe, and that we were therefore free to vote based on other issues. After Sandy Hook, and more so this year, the masks have been dropped and the Democrats are going all out against guns. This has become, simply, an existential issue for us.

Just become a one issue voter. ALWAYS choose the candidate who is stronger for the 2nd Amendment. Party doesn't matter.

I have to say that party does matter. The rare Democrat may be pro-gun, but the way Congress is organized and operates, the party leadership controls the agenda. That pro-gun Democrat, if elected to Congress, is nevertheless going to vote for Nancy Pelosi for Speaker. And Nancy Pelosi (or whatever other Democrat is in a leadership position) is going to be vehemently anti-gun.
 
just because they became gun owners with carry permits does not mean they will stop being Democrats. I know we will continue to disagree on core principles and will vote for different candidates but I tell them if they want to support 2A/RKBA, support NRA by making generous donations and spreading the word that 2A/RKBA is not necessarily a party issue but "rights" issue.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, we have to change the perception that supporting the second Amendment is a "Republican" position, rather it is an American position.

And who knows, maybe tasting the experience of being responsible for oneself instead of dependent will awaken a desire to expand this to other areas as well.
 
Welcome to THR, Honey & Venom!

If you had to pick a place to come "out of the closet," to use your own phrase on this," THR is one of the better the places to do it. We see the occasional "I'm pro-2A but . . . " thread, and the mods here don't let them get out of hand. They'll shut them down before letting anybody get beat up too badly.

As for me, I'm a mid-40s, mostly conservative, government lawyer. In spite of what I expected in my college days, I'm about as "establishment" as they come, I guess. Still, I'm unhappy with both the Dems & Repubs. I hate the way that they've effectively carved up "the pie" into two pieces, so that nobody else has a chance of getting a slice. In my ideal world, the government would stay out of my bank account and out of my bedroom.

With that said, you've raised an issue that I'd like to address:
H&V said:
When we get called names, told we're all idiots, or cursed at, the gun lobby looks like the kind of big scary armed threat that inspires knee-jerk nonsense gun policy that nobody benefits from.

No, it shouldn't be your responsibility to be patient with is, but it does make a huge difference. Be stewards of a cause when you can. We vote, and we're starting to care about something very dear to you, show us instead of insulting us and we could see the uninformed anti-gun movement dwindle into insignificance.
I won't defend the name-calling from the gun community, for there really is no call for it. That said, I would like to try to explain some of it. Some of the non-productive vitriol is a reaction to the treatment that gun owners receive at the hands of gun control advocates, Dem politicians, and the media. For the past 20+ years of my memory (& perhaps longer), the gun owning community has been treated like a mob of stubborn, unruly & slightly dimwitted children by those factions. They've treated us as though we'd agree with them and give up our guns "if only we understood. . . ." We've been called "bitter clingers." "Knuckle-draggers" is a pretty common term for us, as well. We routinely have our intelligence and our manhood called into question strictly on the basis that we choose to own or carry firearms. Just go to CNN.com and you can find ~20 articles supporting gun control. Read them, and you'll find a very condescending tone in them, one that shows the disdain that the gun control crowd has for us. For them, we are The Enemy.

Twenty + years ago, this was evident when the federal AWB was passed. Gun control supporters claimed they wanted compromise but, in reality, they wanted nothing to do with us. They didn't need our votes, so they wanted no input from us on their "compromise." This reared its head again in the politics surrounding UBCs. Bartholomew Roberts explains this well in his "Why Universal Background Checks are Bad for all of us" (or some similarly-titled) thread.

I, for one, have plenty of Democrat/liberal friends in "places" like Facebook. A few of them are gun owners, but not many. I've offered to take them to the range, help them with gun safety, and attempted to engage them civilly. In return, I've been called everything but a child of God. My liberal, gun-owning friends don't need to be taken to the range. Of my liberal, non-gun-owning friends, not one of them has ever expressed an interest in learning about any aspect of guns, their history, function, safety . . . nothing.

Name-calling doesn't accomplish anything, for either side. As I said, I'm not defending is on the gun-owning side, but I will admit that I do understand it.
 
I've said it before and I'll say it again, we have to change the perception that supporting the second Amendment is a "Republican" position, rather it is an American position.
This is critically important.

And the first step in that is for every gun owning Democrat to insist that the party remove its gun control aspirations from the official party plank, and instead begin to work towards securing the RKBA for future generations of Americans.

Anything less from either party is just lip service to the RKBA, and anything less from each of us is nothing better than elitist 'guns are OK for me but not for thee'....
 
What Old Lady New Shooter said. We are allowing politicians to use our own freedoms to divide us rather than unite us.
Welcome H&V, feel free to invite your friends, too. We're glad to see you.
 
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