SimplyChad
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1895 with cowboy loads
Light Recoiling Deer Rifle
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briansmithwins
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He might need to shoot farther than 50 yards.
Funny story:
So, I go out to the local pistol match a few years ago. I'm using my normal Sig P226 with my normal cheapo 9mm bulk buy ammo.
Obvious cowboy action shooter is also participating. We had a stage where you had to knock the steel over to get the point for the target. CAS proceeds to hit each steel very fast, but none of them fall down. He protests that the game is rigged.
Match director says that the criteria for setting the steel up is that it has to fall when hit by a factory 9mmP round. They asked me to shoot the steel to confirm that it was set right. All of them dropped after one hit with 9mm.
CAS packed up his stuff and left.
BSW
SimplyChad
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Brian inside 50 yard my 45=70 is the word of god. 70+ critters all DRT
Captcurt
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I cringe every time I see someone recommend a 22 centerfire as a deer gun for kid. Don't get me wrong, I have seen deer fall to a 22lr, but that was in the hands of someone with experience. With well placed shots and the proper bullet a 223 will work swell. Take a 13 year old with little experience, no idea of the anatomy of a deer, and who is skittish of recoil and you might be in for a long day of blood trailing,
I had two friends last season who took their kids out hunting, gave them a 223 that they had very little if any experience with, and spent most of the day trailing wounded deer. Neither deer was recovered. We owe it to the game to make quick, humane kills. That equats to using enough gun, properly constructed bullets, and lots of range time.
I had two friends last season who took their kids out hunting, gave them a 223 that they had very little if any experience with, and spent most of the day trailing wounded deer. Neither deer was recovered. We owe it to the game to make quick, humane kills. That equats to using enough gun, properly constructed bullets, and lots of range time.
"30-30 Winchester is comfortable to shoot all day long, and Marlin makes them in Youth Configuration. Add a recoil pad if required."
Uh, no its not, and making it lighter and smaller makes it worse.
Bolt actions and lever actions tend to kick harder because the only thing absorbing the recoil is you. 30-30s kick pretty good in lever actions and bolt actions (I have both). The thing to remember is light weight equals more recoil and heavier bullets equal more recoil, it's pure physics.
Semi autos don't feel like they recoil as much since the recoil is absorbed by the venting of the gas, mass of the bolt and bolt spring. That slows it down and dissipates it. Plus they tend to be a bit heavier. Semi auto recoil tends to be more of a push than a slap. I have found that guns like the Ruger Mini 30, SKS, and Saiga in 7.62x39 are pretty soft shooting. A semi auto 243 would be another good choice if you could find one.
Uh, no its not, and making it lighter and smaller makes it worse.
Bolt actions and lever actions tend to kick harder because the only thing absorbing the recoil is you. 30-30s kick pretty good in lever actions and bolt actions (I have both). The thing to remember is light weight equals more recoil and heavier bullets equal more recoil, it's pure physics.
Semi autos don't feel like they recoil as much since the recoil is absorbed by the venting of the gas, mass of the bolt and bolt spring. That slows it down and dissipates it. Plus they tend to be a bit heavier. Semi auto recoil tends to be more of a push than a slap. I have found that guns like the Ruger Mini 30, SKS, and Saiga in 7.62x39 are pretty soft shooting. A semi auto 243 would be another good choice if you could find one.
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Art Eatman
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"Man up" makes me want to throw up. I'm not recoil sensitive, but I'm not wired into masochism, either.
An M1 Carbine pushing 110gr soft tips will bring down a white tail within 100yds if the shooter does his part, and has very minimal recoil.
It will also sport better iron sights than most (if not all) lever action rifles with OEM iron sights.
FWIW...... I took my very first whitetail with my grand dad's Winchester M1 Carbine at about 30yds decdes ago, and my 10yr old grandson will be hunting deer hunting this year with the same M1 Carbine.
They are extremely light in weight, easy to use, and very compact overall.
It will also sport better iron sights than most (if not all) lever action rifles with OEM iron sights.
FWIW...... I took my very first whitetail with my grand dad's Winchester M1 Carbine at about 30yds decdes ago, and my 10yr old grandson will be hunting deer hunting this year with the same M1 Carbine.
They are extremely light in weight, easy to use, and very compact overall.
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Arkansas Paul
Member
I agree, especially when we're talking about a 13 year old youngster. The last thing you want to do is shame him into shooting guns he's not comfortable with and turn him off on the entire activity.
Also, most grown men, whether they will admit it or not, shoot lower recoiling rifles better than heavy ones. I shoot a .30-06 loaded full throttle for deer, but when we go to the range, I shoot my wife's .243 better. Maybe because I know it isn't going to dislocate my shoulder.....hmm.
colonelhogan44
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Obviously you would go about that in a more tactful way with a kid. My dad just told me "it won't hurt you, son."
Maybe I was a tough little kid to be able to shoot 8x57 and expect too much from others - sorry I ruffled feathers...but really, it's a 243.
Give him a towel to put over his shoulder several layers thick to give him some mental security. I do this to this day when shooting my Tikka T3 Lite 30-06 from the bench - that thing has some snappy recoil on the bench.
Maybe I was a tough little kid to be able to shoot 8x57 and expect too much from others - sorry I ruffled feathers...but really, it's a 243.
Give him a towel to put over his shoulder several layers thick to give him some mental security. I do this to this day when shooting my Tikka T3 Lite 30-06 from the bench - that thing has some snappy recoil on the bench.
The 6.5x55 Swede is pretty low on the recoil side, if you use factory ammo. The biggest issue is finding one that isn't a Milsurp to put a scope on. Doing that to one that isn't already drilled and tapped is a horrible thing. I bought a Tikka T3 from Euro Optic - took 4 months or so to get it in from Finland.
Ok, yes, we are talking about a 13 year old youngster, but we are also talking about a deer potentially being wounded. A balance can, and should be found. There are many options out there for reduction in recoil, but bottom line an appropriate bullet needs to be placed in the right place. If one is too recoil sensitive for a 243 win then maybe he should just wait a year and let his body mature some. the 243 under ideal conditions will certainly take a deer cleanly, but a hit around the edges with a 243 can very well leave the deer alive. Range time with the 243 is the appropriate solution here, and if he can't handle the recoil at the range then what would make anyone here believe it won't become an issue when he has an adrenaline dump and is taking a shot in real world conditions? Because lets be honest, many grown men have difficulty with that.
peacemaker45
Member
Jeff Cooper often said that recoil effect was 85% mental, and that the proper thing to do about it was to ignore it. Further, he said, any kid who played any sport, even touch football, would get hit far harder and more often than any rifleman.
I think his percentage was a bit high, as there are several physical factors that contribute to difficulties that a newbie can suffer that an experienced shooter may not readily grasp.
First is stock fit. Even a pretty mild load can really beat a person up through an ill fitting stock. I've seen a number of 12 gauge '97s that young cowboy shooters grew up with. First, something like half the stock was cut off. As the kid grew, sections were sawn off the missing piece, and screwed and glued back on the gun, a bit at a time.
Second is a good pad. Modern soft pads, like the Limbsaver and Pachmayr Decelerator are remarkable achievements. They act much like the action of a semi automatic does, in slowing and spreading out the recoil impulse over time, instead of delivering it all at once.
Third is weight. This is really the problem with most youth guns. Not only is the stock shorter, but the barrel and action are frequently much lighter as well. This can turn a load that's mild in an adult's rifle abusive when fired in one that's whole pounds lighter. This is why it's often better to cut down an adult gun. Plus, you may have to special order a youth model, cheap used full size hunting rifles aren't exactly rare, though.
Fourth is a factor I've only recently come to appreciate, and that's acclimation. As one shoots more and more, the shoulder seems to desensitize to a remarkable extent. I found this out when, due to a hand injury, I switched to shooting off my left shoulder. Previously, I'd been able to shoot 45-70 carbines, a 300 Weatherby, 3.5" 12 gauges, quite a few fairly hard kicking guns, without much fuss, and acquit myself fairly well. Right after the switch, however, a box of Winchester feather lights in a fairly heavy SxS was enough to leave me tender for a few days. I was shocked. The difference between me and a newbie is that I've got twenty years of experience that tells me I can handle this, I've just got to break in this new shoulder. A newbie is likely to think he just can't do it.
That's where a stair step program can come in handy. If you hand load, you can make up a series of progressively stouter loads to help the lad take the jump in smaller bites.
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I think his percentage was a bit high, as there are several physical factors that contribute to difficulties that a newbie can suffer that an experienced shooter may not readily grasp.
First is stock fit. Even a pretty mild load can really beat a person up through an ill fitting stock. I've seen a number of 12 gauge '97s that young cowboy shooters grew up with. First, something like half the stock was cut off. As the kid grew, sections were sawn off the missing piece, and screwed and glued back on the gun, a bit at a time.
Second is a good pad. Modern soft pads, like the Limbsaver and Pachmayr Decelerator are remarkable achievements. They act much like the action of a semi automatic does, in slowing and spreading out the recoil impulse over time, instead of delivering it all at once.
Third is weight. This is really the problem with most youth guns. Not only is the stock shorter, but the barrel and action are frequently much lighter as well. This can turn a load that's mild in an adult's rifle abusive when fired in one that's whole pounds lighter. This is why it's often better to cut down an adult gun. Plus, you may have to special order a youth model, cheap used full size hunting rifles aren't exactly rare, though.
Fourth is a factor I've only recently come to appreciate, and that's acclimation. As one shoots more and more, the shoulder seems to desensitize to a remarkable extent. I found this out when, due to a hand injury, I switched to shooting off my left shoulder. Previously, I'd been able to shoot 45-70 carbines, a 300 Weatherby, 3.5" 12 gauges, quite a few fairly hard kicking guns, without much fuss, and acquit myself fairly well. Right after the switch, however, a box of Winchester feather lights in a fairly heavy SxS was enough to leave me tender for a few days. I was shocked. The difference between me and a newbie is that I've got twenty years of experience that tells me I can handle this, I've just got to break in this new shoulder. A newbie is likely to think he just can't do it.
That's where a stair step program can come in handy. If you hand load, you can make up a series of progressively stouter loads to help the lad take the jump in smaller bites.
Sent from my C771 using Tapatalk 2
45Frank
Member
I posted a similar question last year for my 15 year old daughter who is kind of small 4'9" 100 lbs. and I bought her a .243 bolt action in a youth model. Very little to no kick.
I would think a .223 is kind of small for deer?
I would think a .223 is kind of small for deer?
As has been mentioned many times the 243/6mm option is good.
Or perhaps a 308 with the managed recoil ammo.
I think Howa sells a rifle that come with a youth stock and a full size stock.
A great idea as the kid has a life time rifle with just a few seconds it takes to change to the full size stock as he grows up.
Or perhaps a 308 with the managed recoil ammo.
I think Howa sells a rifle that come with a youth stock and a full size stock.
A great idea as the kid has a life time rifle with just a few seconds it takes to change to the full size stock as he grows up.
X-Rap
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Have the kid shoot about ten to 1 ratio of 223/243 and let him get a bit acclimated to the recoil. 100 gr 243 is a good choice. Another problem with getting kids shooting properly is insisting they use full sized adult guns when they need stocks that fit them. Having a small person try to mount a rifle when it is stocked and scoped for an adult is a recipe for failure. Putting a kid on a thin stocked metal butt plate light lever action probably won't convince him to believe you either.
A 250 Sav or Roberts would also be an excellent choice. I don't subscribe to the "man up" school but I will say that all 3 of my kids took their first BG animals with 30-06 or 280 but they also put a lot of lighter caliber rounds down range before they went hunting and had no problem with the recoil of the larger round while making the shot on game.
A 250 Sav or Roberts would also be an excellent choice. I don't subscribe to the "man up" school but I will say that all 3 of my kids took their first BG animals with 30-06 or 280 but they also put a lot of lighter caliber rounds down range before they went hunting and had no problem with the recoil of the larger round while making the shot on game.
I wouldn't suggest something that is too light. A 357 magnum can make a decent little deer rifle but only if the shooter is skilled enough to make the shot count. A new hunter may not be able to do it.
Don't be afraid to make him sit out a season if you don't think he's ready to handle a proper deer rifle. Rabbits and squirrels with a 22 can make for some mighty fun hunting.
Don't be afraid to make him sit out a season if you don't think he's ready to handle a proper deer rifle. Rabbits and squirrels with a 22 can make for some mighty fun hunting.
788Ham
Member
As has been mentioned, possibly finding a Sav .250 would be the answer. I've got a '99 in .250, shooting 87 gr and 100 gr bullets in this rifle are almost nothing in the recoil segment of things. I don't, and never have been the type to hype these rounds up, "just to see what happens" downrange. My load for 87 gr. , using IMR 4350 powder, puts them out there at 2900 fps, will knock any deer down, with properly placed shots. Recoil is almost nonexistent. My grandpa shot a .250 for years, he was 5"6", maybe 140 lbs. YMMV
OP
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Olympus
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What about this option: building an upper for an AR other than 556? I have an adjustable stock so that would be a better fit and something that he could grow into. And semi auto would absorb some recoil.
I have no experience with AR calibers outside of 556. Surely there would be something that would work and be comparable to 243 in recoil.
I have no experience with AR calibers outside of 556. Surely there would be something that would work and be comparable to 243 in recoil.
I still contend that if you have him shooting from a bench rest at the range, he will get recoil shy.
I shot my first deer at age 12 with 3 inch magnum #1 buckshot. I can't imagine a .243 would recoil as much as that. Would I have wanted to shoot that gun from a benchrest? HECK NO!!! I was also dove hunting with that gun from the age of 8 and shooting 30+ shells every Saturday. I had some nice bruises.
Shooting off hand allows your body to absorb the recoil much better. Shooting in a hunting situation IMO, makes one not even notice recoil at all.
When I shoot my .30-06 with no recoil pad off the bench...it HURTS. I've killed 2 deer with it over the past 2 years, and I didn't notice a thing.
No "manning up" is needed. Just pick a decent gun....250 Savage, .243 and then teach him proper technique.
If you want an AR-15 with low recoil, but plenty of power...try the 6.5 Grendel.
I shot my first deer at age 12 with 3 inch magnum #1 buckshot. I can't imagine a .243 would recoil as much as that. Would I have wanted to shoot that gun from a benchrest? HECK NO!!! I was also dove hunting with that gun from the age of 8 and shooting 30+ shells every Saturday. I had some nice bruises.
Shooting off hand allows your body to absorb the recoil much better. Shooting in a hunting situation IMO, makes one not even notice recoil at all.
When I shoot my .30-06 with no recoil pad off the bench...it HURTS. I've killed 2 deer with it over the past 2 years, and I didn't notice a thing.
No "manning up" is needed. Just pick a decent gun....250 Savage, .243 and then teach him proper technique.
If you want an AR-15 with low recoil, but plenty of power...try the 6.5 Grendel.
41magsnub
Member
A 6.8 SPC would be an excellent choice as an alternate AR caliber. Folks are using those from everything from antelope to elk to wild boar (I'm not totally sold on the elk part). My little brother (13) is going to use one to try to get his first deer this year. I'm planning to try to get an antelope with it as well. Think of it as sort of like a .270 Winchester short.
There is also an outfit that makes a .243 WSSM upper for an AR platform. http://www.dtechuppers.com/index.html
I don't think .223/5.56 are good choices for deer. Maybe small whitetail in certain situations and in the right hands. But in general - no.
.243 / .250-3000 / .257 Roberts would be about as light a round a I'd suggest as being responsible. Even these are going to require good shot placement.
I'd also avoid the 'man-up' approach. I bought a .300 win mag when I was in high school. I developed a hell of a flinch. About the only way I broke it was to not shoot it for about 10 years. Even now I limit bench time with it.
Consider getting a lead sled for the range. You can shoot without the recoil.
I don't think .223/5.56 are good choices for deer. Maybe small whitetail in certain situations and in the right hands. But in general - no.
.243 / .250-3000 / .257 Roberts would be about as light a round a I'd suggest as being responsible. Even these are going to require good shot placement.
I'd also avoid the 'man-up' approach. I bought a .300 win mag when I was in high school. I developed a hell of a flinch. About the only way I broke it was to not shoot it for about 10 years. Even now I limit bench time with it.
Consider getting a lead sled for the range. You can shoot without the recoil.
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