Llama 1911 clone

[cls12vg30]

Wow, great info, horge. So am I to understand from your post that, since my Llama is marked "Fabrinor Vitoria", that it was made between 2000 and 2003, after the gunsmiths gained control of the company, but before they moved into the new factory? I'm not sure what to read from that from a quality standpoint.

Do you know anything about the winged "FAE" crest?

 

[horge]

Hi,
I'm fairly confident the rollmarked SLIDE left the factory in that time period, hehe. Some of the other components may have come from excess stock parts that Gabilondo left behind.

FAE likely stands for Fuerza Aerea Ecuatoriana (Ecuadoran Air Force), one of the better-equipped Air Forces in South America, and I've heard of Llama Micromax 380's bearing the FAE mark. I've never actually seen an example, and would appreciate a photo of said mark

The FAE crest/seal looks like this

although the actual mark on the firearm may be different.


hth,
and if you can provide a photo, great!

-horge

 

[Ash]

I had a widebody Llama .45 perhaps 8 years ago. It held perhaps 13 rounds and was utterly reliable (never a failure). But, it wasn't very accurate. I couldn't hit a thing with it, except perhaps at point blank.

What happened in Spain that Astra, Star, and Llama all went under?

Ash

 

[cls12vg30]

Astra and Star merged and then tragically went down together. Llama is still in business, as Horge described, with a new factory and the gunsmiths in control of the company. Though the demise of Star especially is depressing, at least things are looking promising for Spain's oldest gunmaker.

As requested, here's a pic of the right side of my MMX:

And here's a closeup of the FAE mark, sorry it's not that clear, perhaps tonight I can use my camera's Macro mode to get a better closeup, this one is just cropped from the image above and blown up. If you squint you can just barely make out the letters FAE along the top edge of the shield.

And Horge, I just checked out this unofficial FAE site. You aren't kidding about them being well-equipped for a South American airforce. Mirage F1's, Kfirs, Jaguars, all impressive aircraft, though the Jag is definitely past its prime.

 

[horge]

Thanks for the photo!
It's not quite a perfect match for the FAE wings I've seen (no copy, sorry), where the shield banding is diagonal, rather than horizontal... but I could be wrong. Those are certainly the correct number of bands for the Ecudorian flag, though.


Re: STAR, ASTRA and LLAMA

For a time, there were three major Spanish pistol-brands made in one relatively small region of Spain:

STAR (Bonifacio Echevarria S.A.)
ASTRA (Esperanza y Unceta, later Societa Unceta y Cia, and then Astra-Unceta y Cia)
LLAMA (Gabilondo y Cia)

Financial transparency is not the best in Spain, and unknown to many, all three companies were heavily in debt to Spanish banks.

In the early 90's Banco Santander, Banco de Bilbao Vizcaya and other Spanish banks invested heavily in the 'Asian Economic Miracle', and lost a lot of money in the regional economic crash that followed. Short of cash, the banks turned the screws on any European companies which owed them money, and that group included the three Spanish pistolmakers.

Apparently, STAR ran for cover by seeking receivership under its rival ASTRA which as it later turned out, wasn't in such good shape either, and for similar reasons that affected Star. ASTRA (with Star) went completely under in 1997.

ASTRA's employees tried to set up a cooperative to take over the company, but they took out too many large loans (just like their former employers) towards a too-ambitious relaunch, upgrade and retool, and soon, once again, protection was sought under Spain's 'bankruptcy' laws. Much of the companies' assets were seized and sold off. Some old STAR employees set up IPAR guns, an outfit specializing in gunsmithing and target pistols. Other STAR and ASTRA employees went to work for a new company, ASTAR (Agrupacion Social Trabajadores Armeros, SAL), turning out pistols that look very similar to the old STAR's, but they're really just lookalikes.

LLAMA had actually filed for 'bankruptcy' the earliest of the three, in 1992. At the time, the Asian Economy wasn't in full tailspin yet, so the banks gave LLAMA less oppressive repayment terms.

The following year (1993) 60 of LLAMA's employees set up a cooperative to try to take over the company. They went slow and steady, minimizing any additional financial exposure, and by year 2000, they secured the Llama name. That cooperative, the new company making Llama pistols, is named Fabrinor Corta y Microfusion, and for a while operated out of the decrepit Llama factory in Vitoria, but recently relocated to a new facility (with all of the upgrades and retooling that Star and Astra employees had tried to get cold turkey) in nearby Legutiano, Gojain. A lot of ex-employees of Star and Astra now work at LLAMA.

Many pistol brands the world over have gone under, while others have gotten by on good product, like BERSA, and on careful management, like LLAMA.

New brands have also cropped up in this world, some of them foully. IM METAL, now HS Produkt d.o.o. (same guys who invented and make Springfield XD pistols), was partly built by Serbian collaborators using dirty money from the massacre of Bosnian Muslims, though most of those directly involved have since been brought to (street) justice.

There are other sad stories behind a number of popular pistol brands.
There are inspiring tales behind many others.
Pistols, good and bad, are still made and sold...

and the world still turns.

 

[cls12vg30]

Wow! Talk about a wealth of information! Where did you find all that, horge? I can guess that you must have an affinity or special interest in the Spanish pistols....are you sure your name shouldn't be spelled Jorge?

Well like I said, despite the mixed reviews, my Micromax, which seems to have been made after the employee takeover but in the old Vitoria factory, has given me little to complain about so far, other than the typical 1911 distaste for hollowpoints. Apparently Cor-bon doesn't make PowRBall in .380, too bad, that would solve the problem. I think I'll try some Hornady XTP or Winchester Silvertips, they are machined much more smoothly in the nose than the Silver Bear JHP's I had problems with at the range. I also ordered a new recoil spring here,
for the price of $2.50. (That site has Llama parts for even cheaper than I can get Makarov parts!)

Aside from the HP issue, the quality and fit-and-finish on the Llama seems to be quite good, the action is tight, and the trigger smooth. And I am quite pleased with how a fraction of an inch in width and a few ounces differences between the Mmx and the Makarov translate into a more comfortable and easy-to-conceal carry gun.

 

[horge]

H. Cortes Jorge Jr. at your service.

 

[Pilot]

Thanks Jorge

Great info Jorge. Thanks, that was interesting reading. I have an older Llama .380. I bought it on a wim as its is a really cute 1911 style pistol, only small and in .380. It was imported by Stoeger and is marked GABILONDO Y CIA VITORIA (Espana). I don't know the age, because I bought it used about 10 years ago. Obvioulsy its from the original company in the original factory. Seems to be pretty well made and its been 100% reliable. I don't shoot it much, but when I do it works fine.

 

[cls12vg30]

UPDATE: I was at another Raleigh gun show this weekend and the seller whom I bought the MicroMax from in November was there with some more, including a primo satin chrome-finish example, form the new Ligutiano factory. I happenes to have my Llama out in the car so after a bit of negotiation I traded the above-mentioned Micromax from the Vitoria plant (plus a little $$) on a factory-fresh Legutiano-made satin-chrome MicroMax. The finish on the old one had a few flaws, and from the FAE crest it was obviously used, whereas the new Llama is very obviously right out of the factory. It has the new chrome finish which has more of a "frost" to it, at least in its current brand-new condition. My first impression is that the metallurgy is better, just judging from the notch in the slide where the slide release catches. This area had started to deform on the other one.
In the two months since I bought my first Micromax, I had grown very fond of it, especially its lightness and narrow shape that make for a very comfortable carry weapon. Also, once I got use to it, the 1911-style action became second nature to me. I feel fortunate to have been able to trade it in on a new example from the updated factory (complete with the new Llama lifetime warranty). Obviously this example needs some range time as it is still a bit stiff.

 

[Gunz]

I also enjoyed Horge's history of the SPanish gun makers' plight. I own a Llama Model IX (9 I guess) 1911 style pistol. This was a poor boy's first buy for a 1911 style gun; note how I used "style" and not "clone." The extractor, grips, safety, trigger, release, etc. are all just a bit off the specs to prevent interchangeability of parts. The metal could be arguably softer than other 1911s. Mine is the Gabilondo Cia Vitoria model. It is so loose, it rattle when I shake it. I can field strip one handed, because the tolerance are so loose. All in all, I have had some fun plinking with this thing since I was a teen. I paid about $200 way back then, and it came with a nice blued finish which still lasts today. The main wear on the bluing is on the grip safety and the mainspring housing. I have always shot hardball through it, and I never even knew what accuracy was when I was plinking at cans and bottles. As long as I had ammo, and had a pleasant afternoon to kill time, that gun came with me. I felt safe with it. I has choked on hollowpoints, and at different times, with different brands. Still, I had the standby FMJs always loaded in that 1 factory magazine. By the way, regular 1911 mags do work in this Llama, and for the life of me, the cheapest, nasties, most surplus $4 mags you can find at a gun show will work in this loose gun. Go figure. Years later, with more income, and a better colletion and grade of 1911s, I still pull that Llama out and wipe it down with an oily rag, reminescing about the nostalgic moments of my youth, with an inexpensive gun, and a lot of good times. No need for status symbols with brand names.....

 

[Gixerman1000]

I have shot about 5 or so, all were inaccurate and very unreliable. I am sure there are a few that are ok but I wouldn't take the chance of buying one with my luck.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

I've got an older Llama, imported by Steoger in the late 70's or early 80's. In 9mm.

Nice gun. I've had some work done to it, and this one is apparently a very close clone, as many Ed Brown and Chip McCormick part work well in it.

Heavy. Very heavy. Fully ramped barrel. Nice trigger (thanks to some new parts and a good gunsmith.) Probably still have less than $350 in it after adding the new parts.

Very accurate.

I've have heard some real horror stories about Llamas, but this one isn't a chapter or footnote in THAT set of books.

 

[BluesBear]

The Llama semi-automatic pistols from the 40s, 50s and 60s were mostly pretty good. At least the ones I have handled and fired were.

Guns made in the 70s and 80s were iffy.
Seems like they had an awful lot of Monday and Friday guns.

I would avoid the 90s era although it's possible a good one slipped out by accident.

I have heard they are cleaning up their act pretty well and the new guns are much better but still not as good as the early early ones.


I also liked their revolvers from the early/mid 70s.

 

[ftierson]

I have a Llama MAX-I (.45ACP) that has been a great handgun. I had it Metalifed (hard chromed), and it's one of the most accurate and reliable handguns that I own.

I also have a Llama Mini-Max II and a Firestorm Mini Compact (which are, of course, essentially the same gun). Both are double stack compact .45ACPs. I have been very pleased with them as well.

I should probably also mention that I have always had good luck with Spanish handguns. I also have a couple of Astra Constables (in .22LR), Astra A-75s (in 9x19mmP and .45ACP), an Astra A-100 (in 9x19mmP), a Star PD (in .45ACP, which, to this day remains my primary carry gun), and a Star 30M (9x19mmP). I'm probably even forgetting one or two right now. In my opinion, these are all superior handguns that were purchased at dramatically reduced prices compared to comparable competing handguns.

 

[countertop]

I was looking at a Llama the other day but decided to skip it.

As far as Star goes - I've always liked the Star PD and considered it one of the best concealed carry guns ever. Its certainly near the to of my must buy list - though you should probably stick to the earlier versions and avoid ones that came out later, near the time of Stars demise..

 

[Aguila Blanca]

This thread may be the place to get an answer to a puzzle, especially perhaps from Horge:

I've been aware of Llamas for some time, but less than a year ago I became aware of a new (?) brand -- Firestorm. They offer pretty much the exact same 1911 "style" pistols that Llama offers, and they are imported by the same importer in New Jersey. Both their web sites have a list of 1911 parts compatibility, and they read identically.

Are the Firestorms made in Spain by Llama? Or, as I've heard, are they made in Argentine by Bersa using tooling provided by Llama? More important, are they better than Llama, worse, or about the same?

 

[horge]

Hi Hawkmoon!

You're correct:
'Firestorm' is a fairly new brandname set up by the Sodini family, who also
own SGS Importers, Eagle Imports, Import Sports, yourgunparts, etc.

Firestorm has no manufacturing capability, so it subcontracts pistol manufacture
out overseas ---the designs just happen (hehe) to be almost cookie-cutter
lifts from existing models produced by the overseas manufacturers.
Many major US manufacturers do the same thing--sometimes importing
whole pre-fitted guns (albeit in kit form).

The 1911-style Firestorm pistols are made by Fabrinor (Llama) in Spain.
Pretty much all other Firestorm pistol models are made by BERSA in Argentina.
The pistols are imported as fitted kits, and then assembled by Firestorm in the US.

The Firestorm (Llama) pistols go though two pickets of QC: Fabrinor's and Firestorm's own...
so I would suppose the US-assembled Firestorm might have an edge in quality.

The Firestorm (BERSA) blasters also get the double check advantage,
although BERSA has already got pretty good QC going ... and some of the
designs shipped to Firestorm have long been superseded by newer versions in
the official BERSA product lineup.

Even if the Firestorm gun kits are only 'assembled' in the US,
at least the final-assembly jobs haven't been victim to outsourcing...
and yet the firearm remains reasonably-priced.


hth


PS: The Firestorm revolvers are made by Laserre S.A. in Avellaneda (Argentina).
Laserre markets its own revolvers under Rexio, Pucara and Jaguar model lines,
and has had a close relationship with Forjas Taurus of Brazil since the late 1990's.

 

[Gifted]

I was looking at one a the store. Seeing as it's currently brand new out of the box, that would make it new manufacture, and subject to the better standards? Looking at it, it had a decent trigger, the action on the thumb safety was pretty rough, he recommended a polish job on the insides, to smooth them up. This a good buy? He wanted about $270 for it.

 

[on_target]

I recently purchased the MiniMax in .40 cal. Been having much problems with the feed. I was once told that having the ramp polished would help and another told me that it would not work and get rid of it. Anyone have any suggestions. Thanks...

 

[ftierson]

on_target,

Is this the new Mini-max Sub-compact, or the earlier Mini-Max II (both made by Fabrinor/Llama)?

The first thing to check with any feeding problem in an auto pistol is the magazine. Do you have a couple of magazines to try?

 

[on_target]

Thanks ftierson, will purchase mag this weekend and give it a try...

 

[Mason]

Llama 45

It seems there are several people here who know there stuff in regards to the Llama. I have hope that they may help me as well.

I just picked a Llama 45 as payment for a job. And I have to say, this is the first gun SA 45 that I have owned. I have, and always will be a Glock fan. Kind of hard not to be when I've only had one jam in the last twelve years between five different guns. But that's a debate for another day. What I would like to know about this Llama is all the good stuff. It was imported from Spain by Stoeger. It only has a 6 digited serial number. Is this thing just a paper weight, or do I have something that I can add to my gun bag. I'm worried about hammer bite with this thing. What are the posibilities about getting some aftermarket parts for it.

Any and all info would be really great.

This is my first post to this site and I must say that I'm impressed by it.

 

[Big Gay Al]

I bought the Firestorm Gov't Model last year. Made at the same factory as the current Llama line, it is practically identical to the Llama. I kept it until this past March. While I liked it in general, I was not happy with the finish. Nor did I like the sharpness of the serrations on the slide.

So, I sold it, and used the money to buy a Para-Ordnance P13.45

Other than the finish, I was relatively happy with the Firestorm.

 

[horge]

Hi, Mason

Llama through Stoeger w/ a 6-digit SN?

That's possibly one of the early Llama 1911-lookalikes.
Parts do NOT necessarily interchange with proper 1911-pattern pistols.
There's still a chance it was built in Llama's bad days, and really...
there's only one way to find out if it shoots straight and reliably.

You just may have a shooter on your hands.
Check out Walt Sherrill's comments 12 posts up!

Good luck.