Load Change-result questionable-HP 38 9mm

[gifbohane]

OK.. I need help. I consider myself an amateur at this handloading game.

In December I shot (S& W 9mm) Win Carts, Berry 124 grain, with HP 38 at 4.4 grains at COL of 1.15. The Chrono showed an average FPS of 1130 for about 10 rounds.

Yesterday I shot 20 rounds of the same EXCEPT for using 4.2 grains of HP 38 (.2 grains less.)

How can I reduce the grains by .2 and the FPS goes up? Chrono is off? Or could it be the ambient temperature that was about 40 in December and 60+ yesterday.

I thought that 1130 was way too hot and certainly 1166 is also too hot. One reading was over 1200. Am I in dangerous territory? Obviously I am going to drop down again for the next test.

 

[badkarmamib]

Ambient air temperature change, most likely. HP-38 is one of the more temperature-sensitive powders.

How much velocity variance are you seeing at each load?
How are you measuring your powder weight?

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Different lot of HP-38? Yes, temp will effect your results. IMO you are not over charging with 4.4gr HP-38 with a 124gr plated bullet but you are getting close to max according to Berry's and Hodgdon.

For plinking I shoot a 124/125gr coated cast bullet over 4.0gr W231/HP-38 and with jacketed bullets the charge is 4.6gr to 4.8gr W231. OAL of course varies but it's usually around 1.125".

 

[gifbohane]

Arch

On the HP 38, it is from the same bottle. The FPS of 1130 to 1166 has me concerned since the Hornady manual, while it does not have loads for HP 38 at 125, shows all around it at max of 1100 to 1150.

 

[mdi]

Overthinking? The difference in your load is only 36 fps, average. BTW, reloading manuals are not hard and fast formula. They are the published results of what the test techs. found when they used the listed components with their listed powder charges in their test equipment. Sixteen fps over book max. can be just the difference in the way the test tech. held his tongue when he ran his loads through his equipment. Your results will vary...

 

[Hokie_PhD]

Overthinking? The difference in your load is only 36 fps, average. BTW, reloading manuals are not hard and fast formula. They are the published results of what the test techs. found when they used the listed components with their listed powder charges in their test equipment. Sixteen fps over book max. can be just the difference in the way the test tech. held his tongue when he ran his loads through his equipment. Your results will vary...

And the "max" that he's citing is "only" 16 fps more than what's published.

gibohane, check your brass and see if there are any signs of over pressure. If not, you SHOULD be fine. If so, then take the proper actions to ensure your safety. Also, keep an eye on the temps and the way your rounds act. Keep in mind that the "Max" values are what someone decided was what they'd publish as the max value.

It's your job to determine if that value is correct and you're not going to exceed. Or if you feel there is wiggle room as some sources are very conservative. Also every gun is different and what may be over pressure in one could be fine in another.

If I were you, I'd check multiple sources (sorry I don't have any manuals here at work), and see what most say. Now keep in mind, I tend to error on the side of being extra safe, but I'm also not going to freak out if I approach max (or even exceed a tiny bit) if there are no signs of overpressure. And off the top of my head, your loads seem to be about what I was using with Win231/HP38 and I didn't see any issues.

So.......As always PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE take my and everyone else's comments strictly as opinions. Again it's YOUR responsibility for YOU and those around you to be safe. I'm not advising you of anything except to be safe. Anything else you do at your own risk (grrr gotta hate lawyers and the need to put in such disclaimers)

 

[Walkalong]

I thought that 1130 was way too hot and certainly 1166 is also too hot. One reading was over 1200. Am I in dangerous territory?

Hodgdon online data doesn't show anything over 1088 FPS with W-231 and a 124 or 125 Gr bullet.

Obviously I am going to drop down again for the next test

Did you start at 4.4 Grs? And more important, what OAL compared to the OAL of the data you used?

 

[Dudedog]

Do you have check weights to test the scale? Maybe the charges are really not 4.2?
If you use a beam scale are you sure they are 4.2 not 5.2?
Hodgdon has a MAX of 4.8 gr giving 1088, so with the numbers your getting 5.2gr (by mistake) sounds possible. (never loaded 5.2 with HP38 so I have no idea were the vels would be or if the gun would be in one piece)
1130 with 4.4 grains seems pretty quick as well. Makes me wonder if something is off in the weighing process or the chrono is reading funny.
Maybe fresh batteries in the chrono (and scale if it is a battery scale)
1150+ with 4.2 gr of HP38 at a reasonable OAL seems pretty high, sure sounds like something is not right someplace.
(and as Walkalong mentioned Hodgdon does not have any HP38 data close to 1150-1200) so pressures are probably into +P range or beyond if the velocity numbers from the chrono are right.
Different bullet but in a 5" 9mm 1911
String: 2
Date: 7/23/2017
Time: 10:44:23 AM
Grains: 124
Hi Vel: 1046
Low Vel: 1003
Ave Vel: 1026
Ext Spread: 43
Std Dev: 16
RMR 124 MPR-HP 4.5 HP38 1.08 OAL
Velocity Power Factor Ft/Lbs
1003 124.372 276.965
1036 128.464 295.49
1022 126.728 287.558
1025 127.1 289.248
1046 129.704 301.222
I didn't note the temp but in June where I live early morning might be 80 or higher, afternoon 100-110, so not cold when I got those numbers. (sometimes 90+ at midnight )

So 4.5gr of HP38 was giving me 1030fps which is close to what I would expect from Hodgdons data.
If it was a few rounds I might suspect bullet setback shortening the OAL possible with 20 but not real likely.
If you have any rounds from that batch left I would either cycle them through the gun carefully and check for an OAL change or do my 2X4 test for an OAL change.
A quick check I do on random samples when loading is just to give a couple loaded rounds a sharp rap nose down on a piece of 2X4 and check for OAL change.

Same batch of bullets or a different batch. Possible maybe the bullets are oversized?
Any chance somehow it is not HP38 and something else in the HP38 jar?

Some change could be due to mixed brass but I use very mixed range brass and my ESs usually run around 30 sometimes a little higher sometimes lower.

Proceed with caution, something some place is not right.

 

[WestKentucky]

Are you using that wierd thick walled brass with the step in the case which eats up volume?

 

[Zendude]

Weigh the bullets to verify that they are actually 124 grains. The velocity with that powder charge is what would be expected with a 100 grain bullet. Maybe the box of bullets is for 380acp and incorrectly labeled.

 

[gifbohane]

To answer all. I was amazed at the first result and more so at the second. I had done other, smaller,loads in 2017 but never chronoed them. My notes are not nearby. Just got to use the chrono in December for the first time ALL my load had a col of 1.150 or a over. Hot loads are NOT what I want. I measure each load on a mechanical scale and also use WIN white box cartridges on these particular tests. I get the temperature effect but cannot account for the high FPS. I suppose that I could have had a bad day ( of in this case 2 days? but......This Caldwell Chrono was not an expensive and perfect tool. I pushed the on button forward so I am sure I got FPS and not MPS.

To make matters worse in December I chronoed 10 factory ammo Blazers that day for the hell of it and they averaged 1150.

 

[Dudedog]

Had to be FPS, MPS would be about 1/3 of the FPS #. 1150mps would be about 3375fps so not that.
On a different thought, how did your reloads feel compared to the factory Blazers? Lighter, Heavier about the same?
Zendude had a good thought about bullet weight. I would think 100s would look smaller enough to notice compared to a 124 but worth checking.
Factory vels for 124 Blazer are listed as 1090fps, for the 115s 1145.
If you were shooting 115 Blazers and the chrono is reading 1150 that would seem to indicate that the chrono is ok.
Making me think that of the most likely reason is somehow you have more than 4.2gr of HP38 in the rounds. (unless you have say 100gr bullets)

https://www.amazon.com/American-Wei...&qid=1525321718&sr=8-2&keywords=check+weights

Inexpessive check weights in grams and fractions of grams so with a beam scale you would need to do some math to get grains. (some small ones in the set)
Class M2 so tolerance is a bit higher than more expensive ones .
https://www.troemner.com/media/downloadablepdfs/tolerance/weight_tolerances.pdf
The set has a 100mg and a 200mg, 300mg is 4.62gr and change, right about the area you are weighing.
tolerance on M2 for 200mg is 2mg, 100mg 1.6mg so even if off by the max 3.6mg that would only be .05gr or 4.57-4.67 when it should be 4.62.
You want to have check weights in the range of what you are weighing.
The more I think about if the chrono is not nuts it almost has to be the weight of the powder charge or bad powder. (if you don't have a bullet setback issue)
(I would email Hodgdon the lot number of the powder and ask them if they have had any issues with that lot, bad powder happens sometimes, not often but it happens)
I have a RCBS 5-0-5, a GEM20 and a Frankford DS750.
I use the DS750 the most for checking pistol charges. It uses batteries and can get a bit nuts when the batteries are going bad. $25 but otherwise a good scale, round to .1 however. 3.66=3.7 etc.
https://www.cabelas.com/product/BAT...VE8pkCh0Yug3VEAQYASABEgI7VfD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds
It is nice to have two scales to see if they want to agree. (or agree with the check weights)

Do any of your friends reload and have a scale you could borrow to check yours against?
That could be a quick and free way to see if maybe you have scale issues.
Maybe some HP38/W231 from a different lot than yours to test a couple rounds with?
Do you have any other pistol powders you could try to see if you see the same sort of thing, excessive vel for the expected charge?

Never used any powder that was going bad so I don't know if that could cause high vels or not.
I think it would be a good idea to try to find the issue ASAP.
Bad powder or a scale that is not working right could cause a major problem. (kaboom....)

 

[gifbohane]

Dude- I have been using the Berry 125's from the outset. Over a year ago with time on my hands I weighed all of them (500) and they were more or less 125 grains. To make the mystery deeper, EVERY load of powder is weighed on my mechanical scale for which I have (RBS) check weights AND then on my digital scale (also RCBS).

The only thing that I am thinking is that I grabbed 115 Hornady's bullets OR used too much powder even after reading BOTH scales BUT the reduced bullet weight would be fine for the heavier load.

I am starting to scare myself here..................

 

[Laphroaig]

Chrono is off?

Have you checked into this? You did say that your factory loads shot faster than expected also. Sometimes we trust a $100 precision instrument beyond everything else we do.

If possible, shoot your loads over another chronograph.

 

[Jim Watson]

Assuming your scales and chronograph are in calibration, you are getting high velocity for that load.
4.4 gr HP38 + 124 gr RP FMJ = 1080 fps in my Colt.
Was that Blazer Brass 115 or 125 gr? 1150 fps is about right for 115 gr econoball.

 

[hdwhit]

gifbohane asked:
How can I reduce the grains by .2 and the FPS goes up?

Light-sensing chrongraphs have no facility for outside calibration, so the results should never be taken as the true velocity.

The timer circuit such chronographs use is subject to variation based on the intensity of the sunlight, the angle of the sunlight, the temperature and even how fresh the battery is. They are useful for determining whether your loads are consistent and whether they are "in the ballpark" but should never be regarded as "true".

I thought that 1130 was way too hot and certainly 1166 is also too hot. One reading was over 1200.

Did you begin with the Starting Load per published sources and work your way up to this load?

Or did you simply pick a load that gave you a velocity near the top of the scale and just start pumping out rounds?

The reason I ask is that if you had begun with the Starting Load and worked your way up (rather than starting with 4.4 grains and then retreating to 4.2 which your post suggests you did), you would have a wealth of empirical knowledge already as to what the results were at 3.9 grains, 4.0 grains, 4.1 grains and so on and this would have provided the direction on whether to go on to higher charges.

All those loads in the published data are not there because of people who are too wimpy to handle a full power load or corporate liability concerns. They are a recognition that the highest velocity loads are often not the most accurate.

Please STUDY (not just read) the "How to Reload" section of any published manual and develop written procedures based on what you glean from the text. Then, having picked a case, bullet, powder and primer, develop a load following the generally accepted "ladder" approach beginning with the Starting Load.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

To make matters worse in December I chronoed 10 factory ammo Blazers that day for the hell of it and they averaged 1150.

Well then, that's a whole other matter. If your loads and the factory ammo both seem to be 100 fps higher than expected it's probably not your handloads that are bad.

How far from the muzzle of the gun did you set the chronograph out? Muzzle blast can effect the reading, sometimes by a lot. You should have the sensors at lease 10/12ft from the muzzle.

 

[gifbohane]

More data- yes the Blazers were 115 and I thought that 1150 was in line with reality, that is why I did them ---as a baseline

HDW- As I reported here I did my ladder during 2017 WITHOUT the chrono since I only got it at Christmas. My early rounds (early 2017) were .2 grains below minimum and did cycle but drop near me. Yes I have many manuals and yes I read them many times. Useful info from you on sunlight etc. The first batch in December were done mid day and the second in May about 3-4 PM

Perhaps the Chrono was placed too close. I tried to set it at 10 feet but I did not measure and it could have been 7-8 feet. The rounds flew about 6-8 feet behind me and to the right telling me too hot. I examined all the empty cartridges and I saw no anomalies and they looked just like the factory shells.

I am starting to think that the problem is set back.

 

[gifbohane]

I forgot to thank all of you for your suggestions. Well I am now at the beginning. I had 10 rounds left from the batch I shot the other day. Win carts, HP 38, 4.2 grains. 1.150 COL or a tad more for each.
Took each one and pressed HARD against a bench vise. One or two moved from 1.154 to 1.152, the rest stayed the same. I am now out of ideas. Access to another Chrono is almost impossible.

Can anyone help?

 

[Zendude]

If you think the rounds felt hot, then the chrono might be correct. Maybe pull the bullet on one and weigh the powder again. To completely rule out any OAL change, load only one round at a time and run it through the chrono again. The primers are regular small pistol and not magnum?

 

[gifbohane]

Zen Good idea on pulling one. I will probably lose some of the powder but it might give me a clue. Yes the primers at small pistol CCI I believe 500. NOT magnum. I do see on the internet that a lot of factory RN 115 grain plinking rounds are in the 1120 range so I am not really out there... and do not want to be.

 

[gifbohane]

Zen Well I pulled one and the load was dead nuts on at 4.2. Maybe my M&P regular sized has very tight action. I probably have less than 1000 rounds through it. Really fishing now.....

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I forgot to thank all of you for your suggestions. Well I am now at the beginning. I had 10 rounds left from the batch I shot the other day. Win carts, HP 38, 4.2 grains. 1.150 COL or a tad more for each.
Took each one and pressed HARD against a bench vise. One or two moved from 1.154 to 1.152, the rest stayed the same. I am now out of ideas. Access to another Chrono is almost impossible.

Can anyone help?

First, I highly suggest you send factory rounds over the chronograph which match the bullet weight of your handloads. Testing 115gr factory loads against your 124gr handloads is for the most part useless.

Be sure the sensors are at least 10/12ft from the muzzle, the shockwave can and will mess with your readings.

I have been using W231/HP-38 forever and in many cartridges including the 9mm and I have never has it produce excessive pressures even in extreme temperature swings. I'm sure it can but it has not for me.

Do you shoot a .38 Special? If yes load up some mild cast loads and see if the numbers are more in line in an effort to test the powder you have.

 

[Zendude]

Does the cartridge plunk ok in your M&P barrel without the bullet making any contact with the rifling? 1.154 OAL seems a little on the long side, although still under the max OAL for 9mm. That would be the only other thing that I can think of that might cause higher pressure. 4.2 grains at that OAL should feel like a mild load rather than a hot one.

 

[Dudedog]

Good thought, maybe bullets jammed into the lands.