Local open carry proponent involved in fatal shooting

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tdisalvo

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http://www.jsonline.com/news/crime/93744194.html

Good evening, I've been a long-time lurker and have learned a lot from the discussions held here. I have been waiting on my home state (Wisconsin) to finally join the majority of the union in allowing CCW, however incidents like this one (see the link) make that seem less and less likely...

We haven't had much press regarding CCW and/or open carry, but the individual involved here was one of the few. I can already imagine the level of backlash that will occur.

Regards,
TOM
 
Insufficient data for a meaningful answer.

FWIW, sounds like a dispute over a parking space, fueled by alcohol, involving a firearm.
 
Certainly something for the anti-gun people to talk about: "Look, one guy was killed and another horribly wounded in a fit of road rage, just like we said would happen if carrying guns was allowed!".

Personally, I refuse to be lumped in with this jack*ss. Should I lose my right to drive because other idiot's negligence get's people people killed on the nation's roadways every day? Should I lose my right to enjoy alcohol at home because more people die yearly due to alcohol related traffic accidents than are murdered?
 
From the article:

"No reasonable person would dispute that walking into a retail store openly carrying a firearm is highly disruptive conduct which is virtually certain to create a disturbance.

This is so because when employees and shoppers in retail stores see a person carrying a lethal weapon, they are likely to be frightened and possibly even panicky. Many employees and shoppers are likely to think that the person with the gun is either deranged or about to commit a felony or both."

I think we can all agree... as "reasonable people"... that this statement is in most cases FALSE.

"Further, it is almost certain that someone will call the police. And when police respond to a 'man with a gun' call, they have no idea what the armed individual's intentions are. The volatility inherent in such a situation could easily lead to someone being seriously injured or killed," Adelman wrote.

I can see the point about a "man with a gun" call from the police perspective. But the "volatility" could only lead to someone being killed if either the OCer draws his gun (which he likely won't) or the cops run in guns blazing instead of following usual procedure (which is also likely not to happen).

Looks to me like a vague article with few real details and a hefty dose of anti.
 
Alcohol + young guys + guns = shootings.

Bad combo all around.

Thats why all the 18-21 clubs around here were shut down. The freaken kids get some alcohol in them because they always sell to underage and they start shooting or stabing eachother. The last one was shut down because they reenacted the O.K. Corral outfront.
 
As of now, there's not enough information to understand the details of what actually took place, but we can reliably expect that anti carry folks will use any shooting, and especially those involving CCW or OC advocates, to their advantage. If the charges aren't dismissed or if Mr. Gonzalez is convicted in trail we'll have a lot more information to go on, but right now there's not enough detail to know whether this is a justifiable shooting in self defense or not. What is relevant to THR is the potential fall-out from an OC advocate being involved in a shooting and this sort of media presentation of it.

Let's post the entire article for folks to read instead of excerpting bits and pieces.

A Milwaukee man who filed a civil rights lawsuit over his arrests for openly carrying a gun into stores has been charged with fatally shooting one man and wounding another outside his south side home over the weekend.

After the shooting, Jesus C. Gonzalez immediately called 911 to report the incident. He was wearing his empty holster as he surrendered to police when they arrived moments later, according to a criminal complaint. His gun was sitting nearby.

Gonzalez, 23, was charged Thursday with first-degree intentional homicide and attempted first-degree intentional homicide in the death of Danny John and the wounding of his nephew, Jered Corn. Gonzalez is being held at the Milwaukee County Jail on $100,000 bail, according to jail and court records.

Coincidentally, a federal judge had dismissed his civil suit Tuesday.

According to the criminal complaint:

Early Sunday, John, 29, and Corn, 21, were at Mamie's tavern at S. Shea and National avenues. They agreed to go to a friend's house near the bar. Corn began walking there, while John went to get his car parked nearby. They had agreed to meet at the friend's house.

Corn told police that as he left the parking lot he saw Gonzalez pointing a gun at him on the sidewalk. He said Gonzalez ordered him to back up, which he did for several feet before Gonzalez shot him. Corn said he recalled John's car had arrived in the parking lot, and then sped away, but he couldn't remember more. Corn was shot in the throat and paralyzed.

The complaint does not include a post-interrogation statement from Gonzalez but indicates that he called police about 12:30 a.m. to report that "I just had two individuals try to assault me when I was going outside to move my car." He tells the dispatcher that he shot out the window of a car, and one of the men fell down, but he wasn't sure whether he hit either or both of the men, and that he ran after firing the shots.

When the dispatcher asked if the men had a gun, Gonzalez replies, "I don't know what they had, but they must have thought that I was not armed."

Upon arrival, police found Gonzalez standing outside with his hands up, wearing a black nylon gun holster on his side. His 9mm semiautomatic was sitting on top of a stack of boxes inside his house, with the slide pulled back exposing the empty chamber.

Police found John lying on the sidewalk around the corner, at 3400 W. National Ave., in front of his black Honda Civic, which was idling and had gunshots to the windshield. A cell phone was outside the driver's door, ringing.

A relative told police she had been talking to John by phone around the time of the shooting when she heard him having an argument, telling someone to leave his windows alone. She said she heard the other voice say a repeated expletive and "I'm going to back up in there" before the call became muffled and then was disconnected.

Corn told police neither he nor John had guns that night and had not had an altercation with Gonzalez.

Police officials recovered seven casings they determined were likely fired from Gonzalez's gun, which his brother told police he always wears when he leaves the house.

Last year, Gonzalez filed a federal lawsuit challenging the common practice of police arresting people who openly carry holstered guns in public after his arrests on disorderly conduct charges at a Menard's in West Milwaukee in 2008 and at a Wal-Mart in Chilton in April 2009. Prosecutor declined to bring charges in both cases.

A week later, Attorney General J.B.Van Hollen issued an advisory stating that so-called open carry, by itself, was not cause for a charge of disorderly conduct, and in the year since, open carry advocates have held picnics and other public events around the state promoting the practice.

Milwaukee Police Chief Edward Flynn quickly responded to the Van Hollen advisory, saying Milwaukee officers would certainly still be questioning anyone seen openly carrying a gun in the city.

On Tuesday, U.S. District Judge Lynn Adelman dismissed Gonzalez's civil rights complaint, saying police officers indeed had probable cause to arrest him in each instance, and that even if they had not, the officers had qualified immunity from claims such as the one Gonzalez had filed. He had alleged privacy and due process violations.

Adelman also rejected Gonzalez's claim that because police in West Milwaukee and Chilton held his gun for months before returning it, they violated his rights against illegal search and seizure.

His order may likely anger open carry proponents.

"No reasonable person would dispute that walking into a retail store openly carrying a firearm is highly disruptive conduct which is virtually certain to create a disturbance.

"This is so because when employees and shoppers in retail stores see a person carrying a lethal weapon, they are likely to be frightened and possibly even panicky. Many employees and shoppers are likely to think that the person with the gun is either deranged or about to commit a felony or both.

"Further, it is almost certain that someone will call the police. And when police respond to a 'man with a gun' call, they have no idea what the armed individual's intentions are. The volatility inherent in such a situation could easily lead to someone being seriously injured or killed," Adelman wrote.

In January, two men and the group Wisconsin Carry, Inc., filed another federal lawsuit, challenging a Wisconsin law that restricts open carry within 1,000 feet of a school. That case is pending before Chief U.S. District Judge Charles N. Clevert Jr.
 
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Apart from the unfortunate loss of life, this is a bad confluence of events for open carry advocates. Nonetheless, it's worth waiting this out to see if the charges hold up. I'm not willing to pass final judgment on the shooter based solely on a criminal complaint.
 
Not a lot of information, but what is there doesn't look good for the home team.

I'll put it this way. I know we've got a lot of OC vs CC vs. whatever debates here, and at the end of the day my inclination is that if it is legal, knock yourself out. But if you are specifically pushing an agenda this way like this guy was, you are representing more people than just yourself, and as such, you damn well better be on your best behavior. You've also created a very public record of a certain persona.

The headline "fatal shooting" is bad, but doesn't really reflect on anyone else to the average reader. The title, "gun nut involved in fatal shooting" does.

Justifiable defensive shootings are very rare. People who are willing to get arrested to prove an OC point are also very rare. What are the chances the two are actually going to come together in the real world? I bet you need a big computer to calculate those odds.

This is actually my biggest concern if, God forbid I was ever involved in a shooting. I don't OC; I keep my shooting hobby fairly close to my chest in terms of only people I know fairly well know I do much shooting, but still. It wouldn't be hard at a trial to paint me as a "gun nut", and if they can do that, any "benefit of the doubt" is likely to be out the window. I'm not going to purposely make it easier to make me look like a "guy who was looking for a reason to use that shiny gun he carries everywhere"... "We" can't get into a violent confrontation over something like a parking spot. It just shouldn't happen. A parking spot is just not that important.

If that is what happened here, Jesus is likely, rightly, in big trouble.
 
This may be a clean shoot. The Police Department may be looking for payback against the local gadfly who dares to exercise his rights on the street and in the courts. It wouldn't be the first malicious prosecution ever. I sincerely doubt Mr. Corn was just walking down the street, minding his own business when he suddenly found Mr. Gonzalez pointing a gun at him for no reason. I doubt even more that he was backing away several yards with his hands up when he was shot.

There are many unanswered here. One thing is certain, his criminal defense will cost more than car.
 
his saying he shot out a car window if in fact he said that could be bad. i hope he was totally sober as well
 
Stories like these, even one, unfortunately outweigh the hundreds of stories where some old lady, man, or even a young man, protected themselves with a gun and lived to talk about it.
 
Not much to go on, but if the men were, in fact, unarmed, and Gonzales shot one of them through the windshield of the car, it's gonna be hard to argue SD. Unless it can be established that the man was trying to run him over.

We definitely need more details.
 
Certainly appears to be a very biased story, lacking much content on the shooters side of the story. To me it appears that the shooter has made enemies in both the local PD and with the local DA as a result of his prior lawsuit. This might explain why they are charging him with 1st degree murder even though it is highly unlikely that this was a premeditated event.

Anyway, the story does not surprise me. The media is always waiting for a bad example of gun ownership to exploit. They almost never report on good guys who lawfully deploy a weapon to stop a crime... which is the vast majority of gun owners.
 

I think you mean Jesus H.... that's how I always heard it.:neener:


On topic: This looks very bad for the cause, there are always gonna be a few bad apples. Honestly,seeing a guy that looked like that ( not talking ethnically) open carrying would probably make me nervous. Scraggily looking character with a wild look in his eye..
 
Corn told police that as he left the parking lot he saw Gonzalez pointing a gun at him on the sidewalk. He said Gonzalez ordered him to back up, which he did for several feet before Gonzalez shot him. Corn said he recalled John's car had arrived in the parking lot, and then sped away, but he couldn't remember more. Corn was shot in the throat and paralyzed.

We need more facts and/or witnesses. This statement is not very believable.
 
This is also a good example of why Castle Doctrine in other states makes a difference (when you are on your own property). With no Castle Doctrine in place, it is assumed you murdered the aggressor, you will get charged, and the defendent has the burden of proof. That is exactly what happened here.

He may very well have a great defense, and he will probably need it.
 
This has zero to do with open carry. Blaming his open carry stance for this publicity is just the same as calling him a gun nut or carry permit holder. It has nothing to do with if or why he shot someone. I strongly doubt he just decided to shoot someone for no reason at all.

Yeah, he better lawyer up and shut up.
 
Not enough information.

This certainly sounds like it is missing more than it includes:

Corn told police that as he left the parking lot he saw Gonzalez pointing a gun at him on the sidewalk. He said Gonzalez ordered him to back up, which he did for several feet before Gonzalez shot him. Corn said he recalled John's car had arrived in the parking lot, and then sped away, but he couldn't remember more.

When the dispatcher asked if the men had a gun, Gonzalez replies, "I don't know what they had, but they must have thought that I was not armed."


As he left the parking lot he saw someone pointing a gun at him. Nothing leading up to it?
The driver who was supposedly going to meet him at the friend's house had arrived in the parking lot and then sped off?
Huh?

While it is certainly possible for someone to be deranged or shoot for no reason, it would not seem like this guy fits that criteria. This is supposedly someone that open carries every day.
Whether he over reacted to something and shot or not I don't know.
Whether he had a negligent discharge while holding someone at gunpoint, I don't know.
But irregardless, even if he did over react to something and it was not a good shoot, the story mentions nothing to even react to.
That certainly does not appear consistent with the individual.
So what are they leaving out, why are they leaving it out, and did the individual shot or the friend driving leave that detail out or did an anti-gun reporter desiring a certain bias in coverage leave it out?


The story is missing a lot more than it is reporting. Not enough details to reach any sort of conclusion.
 
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This has zero to do with open carry. Blaming his open carry stance for this publicity is just the same as calling him a gun nut or carry permit holder. It has nothing to do with if or why he shot someone.

Right, but the link between the shooting and open carry position are related topics. Jesus Gonzalez has been in the public eye previously concerning gun issues.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2244898/posts
http://opencarry.org/Press/June-14-08.pdf
http://www.jsonline.com/news/wisconsin/43074132.html
 
No facts to go on, but I agree with Zoogster.

Corn's story sounds like something a child would fabricate when caught red handed.

"How did the vase fall off of the counter?"

Child- "I walked in and it was already like that."
 
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