Local PD entrapment

[silicosys4]

So here's what happened. My friend came up to me at work and told me that he had a friend with a rare pistol that was for sale, and he might buy it. We researched it and found it was an FN 5.7 IOM, a fairly rare gun and worth somewhere north of $1k. I told my buddy for the price and ammo availability he should pass, and he agreed. He told me his buddy had bought it the day before from an old friend that he knew but hadn't talked to since cleaning up his life, and wanted to sell it because ammo was too expensive and nowhere to be found. He had talked to a local gun shop about trading, and based on his description the LGS offered him a great trade if he came in and traded it off. Since we had talked about my friend buying it, That day I had called the local PD, and stated that I was looking at buying a pistol from a private party and wanted to run the numbers to know it was legit before I even put money down. I gave the PD records person the serial # over the phone, they ran it, and said "no, there are no criminal activities or records concerning that gun, it is fine to purchase".

Heres where it gets really wierd. My buddy tells his friend with the pistol that "the numbers are good, the gun is clean" (Personally I wouldn't have bought it without knowing that first.)

So the dude with the gun goes into the LGS that had made him the offer. They ran the numbers, put the gun behind the counter, and they started haggling over trades, the LGS shop owner was killing time as it turned out... Five minutes later the shop was surrounded by police, guns drawn, and my buddy's buddy is now in jail with a class B felony charge for posession and trafficking in stolen guns. Turns out that the gun had been stolen at gunpoint from a police officer. Bad times.

Now, In different circumstances this could have been me. The local PD straight up lied to me about the gun being stolen, so that he would try and make a sale, so they could get the gun back.... and they would have lied to me, and I would have bought a stolen gun thinking it was legit. Maybe I would have tried to trade at a gunshop someday, had the numbers run, and be in jail myself....maybe months or years after making the call to the PD about the #'s....so no records to show I made the inquiry. Is this entrapment? I put this in the scam section because I truly believe this is a scam perpetrated by the local PD, for the purpose of retreiving stolen property, without regard for legitimate, law abiding citizens that try and follow the law and get caught up in it. No doubt the guy will be charged and will be unable to vote or own firearms for life, owe the govt. large fines, and be labeled a felon for life.

 

[dogtown tom]

silicosys4 Is this entrapment?

Not by any stretch of the imagination.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entrapment

I put this in the scam section because I truly believe this is a scam perpetrated by the local PD, for the purpose of retreiving stolen property, without regard for legitimate, law abiding citizens that try and follow the law and get caught up in it.

I call it fantastic police work.

No doubt the guy will be charged and will be unable to vote or own firearms for life, owe the govt. large fines, and be labeled a felon for life.

Only if the police can prove in court that he stole it, or knew it was stolen when he took possession.

 

[splithoof]

There is no requirement for police investigators to be honest or upstanding when fishing for potential hookups as they make their rounds. Once again, it shows to use great caution when having anything to do with firearms; going through a legitimate dealer following proper legal procedure is a big step in the right direction.

 

[Midwest]

Do police normally run serial numbers on a gun for anyone who requests it? I didn't know the police do that for just anyone.

Something doesn't sound right here...

 

[oldbear]

dogtown tom,

AA +1.

To the O/P no entrapment happened. I'm surprised, if the weapon in question was taken at gun point, that the charges do not include armed robbery.

 

[Bubbles]

Do police normally run serial numbers on a gun for anyone who requests it? I didn't know the police do that for just anyone.

Mine doesn't but apparently some localities will run the gun through NCIC on request (yes, I know they're not supposed to). Other states have their own databases.

 

[silicosys4]

splithoof, tell me how I can avoid this situation then, If I have no means of ascertaining a gun is stolen before buying from a private party, when my local PD will not only knowingly allow me to purchase a stolen firearm, but will facilitate my mistake by giving me false information? In your world it is ok for the legal authority on the subject to tell a citizen a lie, charge him with a crime based on his believing your lie, and say that giving a class b felony to a citizen who had gone out of their way to assure themselves of a legitimate sale is perfectly fine, as long as it serves the purpose of retreiving the stolen property? I say, no, ruining an innocent (stupid maybe) person's life is not acceptable "collateral damage" of solving a property theft.

How is this not entrapment? By telling him the gun was not stolen, the pd was inducing him to commit the crime of passing off a stolen firearm. If they had said it was stolen, he would have turned it in immediately, directly to the PD no doubt....if there is even an avenue to do that. He's may be an idiot, but he's smart enough to know he doesn't want to be a felon.

Yes, the person who committed the crime of stealing the firearm will be charged with armed robbery, no doubt. However, nobody involved at this point had anything to do with the original theft, nor do I want to get into that. It was a crime and should be prosecuted, but trying to say someone who bought a firearm and who thought it was legit and who took steps to ensure it was so with law enforcement, should be culpable for any undisclosed and unknown history of that gun, is ludicrous.

 

[jmr40]

I have had friends on our local PD run SN's for me on guns I've purchased used. Policies may be different but locally they have to physically have the gun in hand before they are allowed to run the numbers. If it comes up stolen and they do not have possesion of the gun they can get into trouble.

Without knowing where you live and local laws something does not sound right. If I were to make that call they would have my phone number on record, look it up and come directly to me. They have no idea that I, or someone else would try to sell or trade it to a legitimate gunshop where the SN would be recorded. I could just as easliy have made a legal FTF transaction and had a stolen gun that they would have never recorded.

The fact that your friend tried to trade at a gunshop, and that you checked the SN before the transaction is pretty solid proof that no attempt at a crime was committed. If the facts you gave are correct your friend should not be in jail and any competent lawyer should be able to straighten this out.

 

[Texan Scott]

OP, I STRONGLY suggest that you stop making statements in the forum immediately... anything you say in this forum constitutes a written statement that might be introduced as evidence at trial whether you want/ intended it to be or not. The moderators almost certainly will not (nor SHOULD they) agree to delete or destroy any statement which they know, or may reasonably be expected to know, may be subpeonaed as evidence by either side in an ongoing criminal matter. If your friend's attorneys WANT you to make a statement, they'll ask... otherwise, you may be doing your friend a big disservice.

Edited to add: further discussion probably belongs in 'Legal'

 

[CoRoMo]

...my buddy's buddy is now in jail with a class B felony charge for posession and trafficking in stolen guns.

The local PD straight up lied to him about the gun being stolen, so that he would try and make a sale...

That sounds like your buddy's buddy was innocent, he never KNOWINGLY possessed or trafficked any stolen property.

So I don't understand how he could be charged with doing so.

Something doesn't sound right here...

This.

 

[JohnBT]

Maybe they're encouraging him to name his buddy's buddy or his buddy's buddy's buddy's buddy's friend. The gun came from somewhere.

"Where'd you get the gun?"
"I dunno."

 

[stumpers]

Your buddy's buddy bought a stolen firearm from someone he had not talked to "since cleaning up his life."

I know/knew people/ex-friends like this. Crime, drugs, etc. Not only do I refuse to associate with them or even acknowledge their existence, I would certainly never buy a firearm from them without going through an FFL. Even if they've cleaned up their life...

 

[silicosys4]

@ stumpers. Yup, this is exactly my thoughts, and though I feel for him and feel like I have a small responsibility as the person who ultimately ran the numbers and passed the word that the gun was legit and I'm working to do what I can legally to help him out, but he did buy a gun from a shady person, for a great price, and didn't have the guy fill out paperwork such as DL#, name, date, etc...That makes him and idiot for sure...but I'm not arguing that, I'm arguing that my local PD has a scumbag attitude and way of going about things, telling people that they are ok to buy guns that are actually stolen...and that its not right to do that to people, just so you have a better chance at nailing them, getting some fines/legal fee's out of them, and recovering the stolen item. THAT IS LAZY POLICEWORK

@ Scott...His bed, he's lying in it, if my local podunk PD is too lazy to trace my phone # and call me back about having just run the #'s to a stolen gun, and will instead wait and hope the gun walks to them via a legit sale...which they did...I'm pretty sure they aren't trolling my IP looking for forum posts that I have made that might or might not incriminate him.

I have called other PD's in other towns I have lived in, and was told "we are sorry, but to run numbers off guns we have to have them here in office...if you want to bring it in, after you purchase it, make sure you get a receipt with a signature and date on it, and we can run it. If it comes in stolen we will have to keep it, but you won't be charged with any crime".

 

[Mr Woody]

If the police agreed to run the number on the gun and the OP gave it correctly and it was interred into NCIC correctly, the police would have known it was stolen at that point; if it was interred into the system at that time.

If the police knew it was stolen they may have told the OP it was clear but the story would not have ended there. Seems the OP would shortly have been answering a knock on the door where the nice officers wished to discuss the NCIC hit. This did not happen.

If the friend of a friend is still in jail, there may be a reason for it.

 

[johncantiusgarand]

I have to agree with JohnBT. If you get caught trying to sell a stolen firearm, you are either a witness or a suspect. The difference between the two largely comes down to how much you cooperate with the investigation. I unwittingly bought a stolen pistol once, and the guy I ultimately traded it to had it seized when he tried to trade it to a local LGS. He named me, I named the last four people I was aware of who had owned it before me, and that was that--no handcuffs, no detainment, no charges.

 

[SwissArmyDad]

sell it because ammo was too expensive and nowhere to be found. He had talked to a local gun shop about trading, and based on his description the LGS offered him a great trade if he came in and traded it off. Since we had talked about my friend buying it, That day I had called the local PD, and stated that I was looking at buying a pistol from a private party and wanted to run the numbers to know it was legit before I even put money down. I gave the PD records person the serial # over the phone, they ran it, and said "no, there are no criminal activities or records concerning that gun, it is fine to purchase".

Heres where it gets really wierd. My buddy tells his friend with the pistol that "the numbers are good, the gun is clean" (Personally I wouldn't have bought it without knowing that first.)

So the dude with the gun goes into the LGS that had made him the offer. They ran the numbers, put the gun behind the counter, and they started haggling over trades, the LGS shop owner was killing time as it turned out... Five minutes later the shop was surrounded by police, guns drawn, and my buddy's buddy is now in jail with a class B felony charge for posession and trafficking in stolen guns. Turns out that the gun had been stolen at gunpoint from a police officer. Bad times.

Now, In different circumstances this could have been me. The local PD straight up lied to him about the gun being stolen, so that he would try and make a sale, so they could get the gun back.... and they would have lied to me, and I would have bought a stolen gun thinking it was legit. Maybe I would have tried to trade at a gunshop someday, had the numbers run, and be in jail myself....maybe months or years after making the call to the PD about the #'s....so no records to show I made the inquiry. Is this entrapment? I put this in the scam section because I truly believe this is a scam perpetrated by the local PD, for the purpose of retreiving stolen property, without regard for legitimate, law abiding citizens that try and follow the law and get caught up in it. No doubt the guy will be charged and will be unable to vote or own firearms for life, owe the govt. large fines, and be labeled a felon for life.

When did they lie to HIM? You were the one that called, right? You should definitely give testimony with time, date, person you talked to, etc on your friends behalf because you verified that the gun was NOT stolen...

Or am I just not getting it?

 

[silicosys4]

Sorry, swissarmy, fixed that. They lied to me, and I forwarded that lie to him

 

[2000Yards]

LEO are free to lie, mislead, omit, etc. in an investigation. The first thing you should be aware of is that as a regular citizen you don't really have a good way to determine whether something is stolen. Why should you? If you can, then so can a thief, in order to determine whether their goods are "clean." Works both ways. If you want a guarantee, buy a new gun from a dealer - take the good with the bad.

NORMALLY the stolen property just gets confiscated with a tough-luck nod to the former holder. Your buddy's buddy is looking at a felony charge because, in all likelyhood, he knew that the gun was stolen (or at least the police believe they have evidence showing that he knew). No jurisdiction was mentioned, but as you pointed out it would be a pretty awful miscarriage of justice to torpedo someone for unknowingly traffiking stolen goods and even the g-unfriendy states aren't that harsh.

 

[Robert]

To answer the original question, this is not entrapment. This is also not on topic for THR. As terrible as it is for your buddy THR does not deal with the inter workings of a PD investigations. Best advice to him, hire a good lawyer.