briney11
Member
Of your drivers license and permit to carry on every firearms purchase. I've never heard of this. Anyone else have any experience with this type of thing?
local walmart wants to make and keep copies
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Wyatt
Member
I've never purchased from Walmart, but something similar happened to me about a month ago. I went to a local shop to buy a can and pistol! I gave the sales lady my DL and concealed carry permit. When the lady went to the copier, I objected and she said she would write the info down and not make copies. I also had heartburn when she started calling in my personal info in front of a number of strangers. I stopped her mid sentence and asked her to find another phone away from the public. Never had that happen before, but I would do it again!
dogtown tom
Member
I've heard of several dealers who do this.
My guess would be that the store started that policy to ensure that your government issued photo ID and firearms permit were recorded correctly.
just for fun
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Must have been in the mid to late 80's the gun stores in Tucson, Az. went through a similar program. At that time it was for ammo and reloading supplies. Didn't last long, 6 months at the most.
In this day and age who would dare guess what will become of that information, let alone if it's going to be from this day on!
In this day and age who would dare guess what will become of that information, let alone if it's going to be from this day on!
ColtPythonElite
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I don't see the big deal. The info is on the ATF/state forms anyway.
jcwit
member
Most of it is public knowledge anyway just as your property tax is.
My guess is a clerical error can get them in big trouble, by directly copying the info they give themselves a layer of protection. Just a guess, whatever the case its pretty much all going to be handwritten on the form anyway so not really going to bother me. Well, I don't see why they'd want my ccw, but I'm in Missouri where its in no way used when purchasing a gun.
Willie Sutton
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Been standard as long as I've been buying from dealers (that would be since 1977).
No biggie.
Willie
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No biggie.
Willie
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Berger.Fan222
Member
The biggest concern I have with the info on the DL and the 4473 centers around identity theft. There are some protections in place to keep FFLs from losing 4473s, but there is no accountability in place if they lose a photocopy of the DL. Combined with info quickly copied from the 4473, and identity thieves have every thing they need without the issues that accompany a missing 4473.
After a few bouts with identity theft and credit card fraud, our household has gotten much more careful. We no longer email the info on DLs, passports, or credit cards, and we turn off the wireless and use a wired connection when entering credit card info for online purchases. Lots of places that ask to see an ID make a quick copy, which is a risk for the ID holder, so we've started to refuse.
Sure, there is occasionally some inconvenience in finding alternate vendors, but it is much less inconvenience than cleaning up after identity theft or credit card fraud. Where legally required, I allow people to see my ID and to hand copy the required information for the transaction, but not to photocopy.
Doing business with smaller FFLs who one knows and trusts personally to secure the 4473 and not photocopy the ID is an effective work-around to identity theft concerns. Better FFLs have a dedicated safe for the 4473 related paperwork and there is less concern about the criminally minded accessing the info than in the big chain stores.
After a few bouts with identity theft and credit card fraud, our household has gotten much more careful. We no longer email the info on DLs, passports, or credit cards, and we turn off the wireless and use a wired connection when entering credit card info for online purchases. Lots of places that ask to see an ID make a quick copy, which is a risk for the ID holder, so we've started to refuse.
Sure, there is occasionally some inconvenience in finding alternate vendors, but it is much less inconvenience than cleaning up after identity theft or credit card fraud. Where legally required, I allow people to see my ID and to hand copy the required information for the transaction, but not to photocopy.
Doing business with smaller FFLs who one knows and trusts personally to secure the 4473 and not photocopy the ID is an effective work-around to identity theft concerns. Better FFLs have a dedicated safe for the 4473 related paperwork and there is less concern about the criminally minded accessing the info than in the big chain stores.
CajunBass
Member
I don't even know if my dealer does it or not, but I don't think so. Big deal. All the information is on the 4473 anyway, except for my picture.
For a lot of people it's a second form of ID. Not necessary, but usually handy.
For a lot of people it's a second form of ID. Not necessary, but usually handy.
allaroundhunter
Member
At the range that I work at we always make copies of DL and CHL when filling out a 4473. The hassle of an ATF audit is huge, and it helps to have those copies available if something is illegible or if the ATF decides to disagree with something.
ApacheCoTodd
member
I look at it this way...
The info is going to go on a form anyhow - I know this - but I don't need a copy of the ID floating about in the trash, on the floor... Wherever.
Or, how is a copy of my ID less dangerous than actually having it in hand after a theft? Loosing a license in certain states or a military ID is a direct step to ID theft.
Looking for info on the internet is nothing like having the info handed to a crook in the form of the actual ID or a copy.
The info is going to go on a form anyhow - I know this - but I don't need a copy of the ID floating about in the trash, on the floor... Wherever.
Or, how is a copy of my ID less dangerous than actually having it in hand after a theft? Loosing a license in certain states or a military ID is a direct step to ID theft.
Looking for info on the internet is nothing like having the info handed to a crook in the form of the actual ID or a copy.
NOMI WASP
member
I've given my drivers license many times and I'm not sure if they copied it. My CCW has never been given or have I been asked to present it. I would decline if that was a needed for a purchase. I'm a paranoid guy who doesn't care to give info I know they do not need.
jimmyraythomason
Member
Ditto! Here in my state of Alabama, a permit to carry is just that, a Permit to CARRY and has zero use for purchasing. In fact, no one but a LEO has the authority to even ask if you have one here (in an official capacity).
allaroundhunter
Member
A CHL keeps the dealer from having to make the NICS call. No FFL dealer is trying to get you in trouble by asking if you have a CHL, they are just trying to make the process easier for everyone.
It isn't needed, but it does keep the Gov't from knowing exactly when you are purchasing a firearm...
ETA: This is for Texas
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jimmyraythomason
Member
Not in my state. A background check is required on ALL ffl firearms transactions(the only exception is for C&R with an 03 but most dealers wont accept it).
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gamestalker
member
I haven't experienced anything like this around here, Tucson, Az. from any of the FFL's. I guess since we aren't required to have carry permits? It's a 4473, DL is used to verify the info for the background check, wham, bam, done deal.
GS
GS
Arkansas Paul
Member
Not everywhere.
Some states have to make the call even with a CHL.
jimmyraythomason
Member
True but it is a Federal requirement that your TIN (Taxpayer Identification Number aka SS no.) be presented to get ANY privilege license including driver's license., If the feds have your DL#, they have access to your TIN. At one time, here, there was a push by the Al. State Troops to get your SSN put on your DL(there is still a space for it) but the public outcry got it withdrawn.
Berger.Fan222
Member
Lots of identity theft and credit card fraud occur without the SSN, and info like residence, date and place of birth and DL# are pretty good leads to getting someone's SSN if they need it to complete an identity theft.
Loan applications at car dealers and medical records are subject to strict state and federal privacy laws, so those industries take fairly good care of the data if you let them have it, which I prefer not to. It's not to hard to use a PO Box for medical care and buying a car. You must use your legal residence on the 4473.
The 4473 also has your place of birth and your date of birth, which a car dealer does not need. (A loan application may need a DOB, if you need to borrow money.) I often decline giving DOB because this is a key piece of info needed for identity theft. It is seldom legally required (but it is on a 4473).
Finally, even if some parties have private info, it is still poor practice to distribute it to everyone who asks. Victims of identity theft and credit card fraud know what I mean. Keep your privacy info "need to know" and your risk is much lower. Define "need to know" as legally required, not some corporate policy asks for it.
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NOMI WASP
member
Not in my state. A background check is required on ALL ffl firearms transactions(the only exception is for C&R with an 03 but most dealers wont accept it).
Agreed, I've never heard of anyone pulling out their CCW and not having a background check done. What would keep someone one from commiting a felony and just not surrendering their CCW card? A background check would be the only way to get an up to date record of an individual.
Agreed, I've never heard of anyone pulling out their CCW and not having a background check done. What would keep someone one from commiting a felony and just not surrendering their CCW card? A background check would be the only way to get an up to date record of an individual.
In Texas, CCW holders do not have background checks performed when purchasing a gun.
jimmyraythomason
Member
We do in Al. even though we had to pass a background check to get a concealed carry permit. Here a person can purchase as many guns as they can afford and never ever get a CHL (called a "pistol permit" here).
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