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"Lockdown" vs. "Firedrill"

Discussion in 'Legal' started by ReadyontheRight, Apr 21, 2007.

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  1. ReadyontheRight

    ReadyontheRight Member

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    IMHO, the VT atrocity should start changing the way that schools deal with invasion.

    We should encourage schools to should start treating these events like a fire drill and get the kids the heck out of there.

    A "lockdown" is exactly what a hostage-taker or murdering-idiot wants.
     
  2. ilbob

    ilbob Member

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    The problem is that most situations where a lock down is used, there is no real danger to the children anyway. They are often used if there is some kind of violent crime that occurred in the area, just to make it a little harder for any criminal to get a hostage as they are trying to flee police, or in even rarer cases to reduce the chances of collateral damage from a shootout.

    To make an informed decision about a chaotic event while it is happening is impossible. No one can do it. It is all about instinct. Because instinct is as often wrong as it is right, especially in such a case, there is some logic to having a predefined plan in place so no thinking is required.

    Short of having good guys with guns in the school already, I do not see there is any practical way to prevent these kind of events, nor is there any especially effective way to deal with them after they occur that does not end up like Columbine and VT.

    You can Monday morning quarterback what the cops on the scene did after the fact, but while no one in authority will publicly admit it, there is not much they could have done to change what happened. The die was cast when a lunatic went in with the intent to kill a bunch of people.
     
  3. rugerdude

    rugerdude Member

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    Juts put a mossberg 500a loaded with buckshot in those little lockers they use to keep fire extinguishers in.

    "a gunman walked into a local highschool today and was immediately stopped by a student with a violence extinguisher"
     
  4. Daniel T

    Daniel T Member

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    "violence extinguisher"

    That is an instant classic. :D
     
  5. thexrayboy

    thexrayboy Member

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    From the perspective of LEO a lockdown makes life simpler. If everyone in the building flees like rabbits in all directions it makes it easy for a BG to blend in with the running crowd and melt away preventing arrest. The lockdown scenario gives LEO the chance to create a perimeter and then sweep the area searching and even handcuffing anyone of interest until they are satisfied that the BG is either arrested or is not among those they have evaluated.

    Which response, "lockdown" or "fire drill" is the better choice is debateable. At times one would be preferable and at other times the other would be.
    I personally don't care if the BG manages to escape among the panicing sheep as long as his rampage has ended. LEO can do some legwork and catch them later. I do object to the option that unarmed victims should be
    forced to remain locked inside a building at the mercy of fate wondering who will reach them first, the police or the madman with no say as to their own future.
     
  6. ace1001

    ace1001 Member

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    The lockdown only works if there are some responsible people with guns inside to keep the threat out or deal with the threat already inside. Otherwise you have just created the "fish in a barrel" scenerio. Ace
     
  7. kfranz

    kfranz Member

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    Baloney. Read this

    http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/22/u...&ex=1177819200&partner=MYWAY&pagewanted=print

    Yeah, yeah, NY Times. Who cares. Look for which classrooms the casulties occured in? Don't want to read? I'll sum it up for you.... it was those that the gunman was able to enter. In which classrooms did the students survive? Hmmm, those that were able to block the door, kind of like a "blockdown" since the classroom doors didn't actually have locks.

    Ask yourself this, if you were a crazed gunman intent on killing loads of people, which is going to help your causulty count? A bunch of locked doors that you can't open, or a hundred or two paniced kids in a narrow hallway, all trying to escape through two or three doors...

    If you're locked in a classroom with an exterior window, yep, lock the door and get out is probably a good idea.

    You know, the more I read this stuff the less happy I get. Please, Readyontheright, if you would, share your particular expertice in the area of school shootings. Or even expertice in the school environment. Whatever, give me some reason to think what you're advocating is something other than reckless advice that if followed, might very well result in MORE death...
     
  8. ace1001

    ace1001 Member

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    Most of the college buildings I see have glass exterior doors. You want to hold that shut? Yes students and teachers blocked classrom doors...not a part of the university lockdown plan. They saved their own lives, but he just went to the next classroom.
    Police do not stop this kind of act. They investigate the aftermath. If he had brought more ammo, there would have been more killing. He shot till he was down to his last shot and shot himself. The police never engaged him. An armed professor or janitor knows the floorplan and MOST important, is on the scene. Ace
     
  9. Don Gwinn

    Don Gwinn Moderator Emeritus

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    There is no perfect answer. "Lockdown" is not perfect, either.

    On the other hand, school shooters have used fire alarms and the like to get students and staff fleeing outside before picking people off at the exits.
     
  10. precisionshootist

    precisionshootist Member

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    First off, I kind of find the term "lockdown" a bit oppressive sounding. Lockdown is something that happens in federal prisons not our schools, hospitals, public buildings, entire cities, where does it stop? Don't get me wrong I believe this is done with good intention but I also question whether this whole "control everything" strategy of law enforcement is effective. IMHO the law enforcement tactic should be "intervention" not "check everyone, control everything". This "lockdown" response smacks of big government control freak mentality.

    Sorry, I seem to be in rant mode tonight!
     
  11. ace1001

    ace1001 Member

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    If this is ranting, this is a very tame group.

    Police seem to think that they are the sheepdogs and we are the sheep, and they get very testy when the sheep start to do things to protect themselves. In their eyes, individual sheep are expendable, order is what maters. Notice how they have another level of retribution when one of their own is killed.
    If someone had a hidden gun and stopped this thing, I guarantee he would have been punished to the fullest extent of the law. Never embarrass the sheepdogs. Ace
     
  12. kfranz

    kfranz Member

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    :rolleyes:

    Most of Cho's victims were IN CLASSROOMS that he was able to enter. Some were in the HALL, when they tried to escape or came to investigate. Again, where were the survivors? IN BLOCKADED CLASSROOMS.

    Asking "who wants to hold glass entry doors closed" is just a foolish argument, and to even make it casts your ability to use the facts of the case and a little logic in doubt.

    I hate the idea of a lockdown. precisionshootist, I know what you mean when you rant on about control freak stuff. But you know what, it the rooms where it was implemented, it worked.

    No, lockdown is not perfect. Armed individuals dropping the bad guy before he gets a shot off is perfect. Maybe someday...

    In that case, the shooter was outside and some distance away. A smart shooter is my nightmare scenario, because they'll double or triple Cho's count... :(
     
  13. Autolycus

    Autolycus Member

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    Actually Jeff White posted an excellent explanation of why locking down the school is a much better idea than letting everyone run through the halls. Basically it allows police who are looking for an active shooter to actually engage the shooter without as high a risk of killing innocent people.
     
  14. ace1001

    ace1001 Member

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    Students reported that the doors would NOT lock. Even the professors had to HOLD their doors shut. The university lockdown plan was an absolute failure. It was to lock building entrances and stay in classrooms. Locking classrooms would have been better. You would only sacrifice one class and those in hallways. Provided your doors are heavy enough.
    Lockdown without weapons will always sacrifice that first classroom. Maybe you are OK with that. Classrooms need to be easily locked from the inside with secure doors and Conceiled Carry should be allowed. Those permits are held by responsible people.
    I think if you ever find yourself unarmed behind a glass door or one with a window, trying to hold out an armed gunman, you will see my point. Ace
     
  15. ilbob

    ilbob Member

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    ALL police are not that way, but it is a very common attitude with LE.
    Especially if he had stopped the onslaught before it got started.
     
  16. Don Gwinn

    Don Gwinn Moderator Emeritus

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    I've read more ridiculous things than that on THR . . . but not today.
    I'm aware of two school shootings ended by people on scene with guns. One was a high school in Pearl, MS and the shooter was stopped by an assistant principal with a handgun. The other was a college shooting I can't recall at the moment, but the shooter was stopped by two students. I believe the two were either reserve police officers or full-timers off duty; at the time, the media tried to say that they had only "tackled" the shooter, but because of their law enforcement status, the fact that they were armed came out.

    In neither case is there information that anyone involved in stopping the crime was charged with anything or threatened with charges at any time.

    Your assertion is baseless and, rightly or wrongly, implies that your irritation with law enforcement was more important than the facts in this case.
     
  17. ace1001

    ace1001 Member

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    I have no animosity towards law enforcement. I know many LAOs. They do consider themselves and civilians as separate species. Helps them to not get personally involved. But it does cause them to look at lockdown from a prison standpoint. Call a lockdown and systematicly pounce on everything that doesn't lockdown until you secure the whole building.
    Now that they have changed to moving moving quickly to the shooting, I have no problem with their tactics. The tactic used to be secure perimeter, establish communication, and negotiate. Times have changed and perps have changed.
    My problem is with the laws that disarm CCL holders, They have been checked out, trained and if on the scene already, they are our best defense and deterrent against acts like VT suffered. LE hates to be embarrassed, wants everything by the book. CCL holders are a variable that they don't want, even if it saves lives. Ace
     
  18. Cesiumsponge

    Cesiumsponge Member

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    Lockdown plans don't work if the doors to classrooms don't actually lock.

    Lockdowns in classes where small windows are present would offer much better concealment than a classroom with large glass windows or glass doors. The feasibility and success of a lockdown is going to vary from school to school (or even building to building) based on the architectural design.
     
  19. Sage of Seattle

    Sage of Seattle Member

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    Not tame, just civil.


    My experience was working security on a community college campus that had about three thousand registered students, no dorms, about two dozen buildings scattered about the property. Most of the classroom doors were just open to the outside and so had crash bars on the inside which, as part of my duties, I had to lock down so that the door could be opened from the outside. In other words, the door was unable to be locked unless one had the hex key or allen wrench in that size.

    Every door on campus, however, was able to be locked in one way or another to prevent access from the outside, for whatever it's worth.
     
  20. bogie

    bogie Member

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    Last time I participated in a fire drill, it was an orderly movement, lined up, toward the exits, and we went to a pre-selected place outside. Not a big deal.

    The reason law enforcement likes "lockdowns" is that it makes it easy to debrief EVERY person in the building - i.e., everyone is guilty until they are cleared. LE is assuming that the shooter is a student.

    And they're looking to do this AFTER the incident.

    Firedrill strikes me as a much better solution.
     
  21. ace1001

    ace1001 Member

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    Lockdown works for the second classroom on, if the doors are solid and lock from the INSIDE. You will sacrifice the people in the first classroom. Is that acceptable to you all?
    CCL holders on the scene are the ONLY hope for that first class. You lock him out of the other classes, he is going to do a thorough job on that first class or lecture hall.:what: Ace
     
  22. migoi

    migoi Member

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    While...

    CCW for students and instructors might be more desirable than the other options...until we actually attain that goal what is the next best solution.

    Not a big deal...until the first line of kids gets dropped.

    Let me see if I can visualize this. Guy with gun is on campus. Protocol should be to line all the students up, march them through ingress/egress constrictions, then mass them in an open area with no cover or concealment. Police respond, each and every one of the approximately 2000 teenagers and adults milling around outside have to be confronted and treated as if they are the shooter.

    If the doors are glass, replace the doors. My school has solid doors that open out with peened hinge pins. The buildings (almost all) are concrete. At least on my campus the potential for fatalities with an active shooter goes WAY up it we used a firedrill protocol versus a lockdown.

    migoi
     
  23. kfranz

    kfranz Member

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    You will always sacrifice the first group, unless you know he's coming in advance. Or, as in a perfect world, you allow to be armed those that would chose to be armed.
     
  24. benewton

    benewton Member

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    I think it'd be a bitch to be in the sacrificial first group, and I'd prefer the chance to fight back.

    But then, I did Boston U and U Mass, unarmed, so there's something to be said for blind luck!

    As for the morons who populate and rum such places, while I'm not a believer, there should be a hotter place in hell for them.
     
  25. ReadyontheRight

    ReadyontheRight Member

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    I am expressing an idea to encourage debate. I have never claimed to be an expert. I began this thread with "IMHO", which means "In My Humble Opinion", which generally means that I am offering an idea. But if you take it as advice, it's worth about as much as you paid for it.

    However, the DEBATE - beyond my humble opinion - on this board in particular is invaluable. I would like to know what to tell my children and influence my school to do more than "cower, hide and hope."
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2007
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