Long Range Reality

[ExAgoradzo]

Grumpily getting into my day...gotta change that quickly now...

I get to shoot several times a year. I have some nice firearms that I’d be loath to part with. I have some friends who like to make noise with me: I’m a pretty normal guy in this crowd.

When I go to the pay-to-play range north of here they have every thing from 5-600yards. Standing I can knock down the 254 9” target with at least 2 of my rifles. From the bags I can stretch that out a bit more. (I save my 338WM and my 375 HH for a friends land and we only go out to 300 and so far I haven’t hit those consistently...).

Now the grumpiest: I hear people talking about long ranging and they say 800-1000 yards!!! Really?! I’m mean serious! Now, if you have the time and money to do that (and land!) great. I’d be the guy to come and watch you. But you’ll never see me pull the trigger on any living thing past 200 yards at this point in my life and unless someone wants to set me up financially I don’t see that ever happening.

Ok, grumpies done. Honestly, I’m really asking. When people buy the rigs are they really (average guy, I’m not saying some of you guys can’t...bully for you!!!) are average guys hitting things consistently with hunting rifles out past 600 yards?

Thanks for listening to my whining!

Greg

 

[Tallest]

The challenge is the reward. I've never hit (or tried to... yet!) anything past 800 yds, but that's a product of opportunity (or the lack there of), not a lack of desire or ability.

It's more work and more expense. The farther our you go, the more you have to consider and incorporate into the shot. It's not practical hunting practice, except that becoming proficient at 1000 yds, means your mechanics are stronger for everything between 0 and 1K. I'm sure it's not for everyone. But I sure as heck would prefer it to golf.

 

[Orcon]

People who can consistently make first round hits 600 yards and beyond aren't shooting several times a year, they're often shooting several times a week. Consider this quote from Accurateshooter.com on a Q&A with multi FT-R champion Derek Rodgers:

"Q: How many rounds do you shoot in a year and how often do you practice?

I shoot 3000+ rounds a year. I try to shoot 1 x a week if I can get away in the evening or on the weekend. If I am close to finding a load I may try to get out more until I exhaust that load as an option. So there may be occasions that I will try to shoot three times a week. Fortunately, the winters are mild in New Mexico and it allows me to shoot year round. I actually shoot more when it is colder. The summer sun here can create mirage that makes it nearly impossible to learn anything."​

Note the last sentence in that quote. The goal of his range time is to gather data and implement that data in a productive way.

 

[Klint Beastwood]

Grumpily getting into my day...gotta change that quickly now...

I get to shoot several times a year. I have some nice firearms that I’d be loath to part with. I have some friends who like to make noise with me: I’m a pretty normal guy in this crowd.

When I go to the pay-to-play range north of here they have every thing from 5-600yards. Standing I can knock down the 254 9” target with at least 2 of my rifles. From the bags I can stretch that out a bit more. (I save my 338WM and my 375 HH for a friends land and we only go out to 300 and so far I haven’t hit those consistently...).

Now the grumpiest: I hear people talking about long ranging and they say 800-1000 yards!!! Really?! I’m mean serious! Now, if you have the time and money to do that (and land!) great. I’d be the guy to come and watch you. But you’ll never see me pull the trigger on any living thing past 200 yards at this point in my life and unless someone wants to set me up financially I don’t see that ever happening.

Ok, grumpies done. Honestly, I’m really asking. When people buy the rigs are they really (average guy, I’m not saying some of you guys can’t...bully for you!!!) are average guys hitting things consistently with hunting rifles out past 600 yards?

Thanks for listening to my whining!

Greg

I have acquired a lot of gear over the years, a lot of it it expensive but even with one of my 700s 300 win mag, with stock barrel I can reach out and touch a 15” target at or past 1760y.

That being said, it’s because there’s a whole lot of prep work and understanding of your optics, hit probability, and data to consider. As well as atmospherics, having a perfect zero, and the obvious....good marksmanship. All of which comes into play. That’s before learning the art of wind calling...especially in ranges of MILES.

So if you want a list of things to learn, that can be provided, but it will be tidious and not all that fun. Most people’s problems are their optics and/or their data.
2nd most common problem is running some leupold and trying drop the bullet in using a app and some hokie bdc...but that last part is just an opinion.

 

[FL-NC]

Different strokes for different folks. I like to ring steel at 800+ meters, as I have the rifles and a range to do so. I also was lucky enough to get the training free in the military. The reality is that hunting, I rarely shoot a deer past 100 yards- in fact, the deer I shot this year was more like 20 yards or so in thick Fl jungle. Not all successful hunters are accomplished marksmen- hitting the pie plate kill zone on a deer at less than 100 yards doesn't require a whole lot of skill or even a particularly advanced rifle. If I lived out west, that would change, as the terrain and opportunities exist daily. Some of the most fun I have had with a rifle involved prairie dogs out to 900 yards and a military issue SR-25.

 

[Tallest]

Grumpily getting into my day...gotta change that quickly now...

I get to shoot several times a year. I have some nice firearms that I’d be loath to part with. I have some friends who like to make noise with me: I’m a pretty normal guy in this crowd.

When I go to the pay-to-play range north of here they have every thing from 5-600yards. Standing I can knock down the 254 9” target with at least 2 of my rifles. From the bags I can stretch that out a bit more. (I save my 338WM and my 375 HH for a friends land and we only go out to 300 and so far I haven’t hit those consistently...).

Now the grumpiest: I hear people talking about long ranging and they say 800-1000 yards!!! Really?! I’m mean serious! Now, if you have the time and money to do that (and land!) great. I’d be the guy to come and watch you. But you’ll never see me pull the trigger on any living thing past 200 yards at this point in my life and unless someone wants to set me up financially I don’t see that ever happening.

Ok, grumpies done. Honestly, I’m really asking. When people buy the rigs are they really (average guy, I’m not saying some of you guys can’t...bully for you!!!) are average guys hitting things consistently with hunting rifles out past 600 yards?

Thanks for listening to my whining!

Greg

You may also find the snark of some long range shooters a little off-putting... another reason to stay content with your practical applications at 600 yds... just my additional $.02

 

[illinoisburt]

... Honestly, I’m really asking. When people buy the rigs are they really (average guy, I’m not saying some of you guys can’t...bully for you!!!) are average guys hitting things consistently with hunting rifles out past 600 yards?

In a word, nope! The average shooter does not hit squat at 600+ yards with their hunting rifle. Go out to the Anniston CMP range and they will help you dial in and shoot a long range group from prone with bags and look quite impressive, but thats not what normally happens with the vast majority of shooters. I would hazzard a guess from years of observation the average hunting rifle purchaser is doing great to hit soda cans at 50 yards standing with their deer slayer. Military qualification shooting on pop up range certainly shows you can train people to get consistent hits at 400 yards on man sized targets from prone with irons but very few folks get much training or shoot very many rounds. Plus as distance stretches variables stack and hit percentages drop, especially as target size decreases.

Are there great long distance shooters? Absolutely yes. Are they the average guy who bought a scoped rifle? No. Can you learn to be a good long range shot? Yes. Just find the right coaches, practice form and trigger control, and get out to shoot.

 

[imashooter]

In a word, nope! The average shooter does not hit squat at 600+ yards with their hunting rifle. Go out to the Anniston CMP range and they will help you dial in and shoot a long range group from prone with bags and look quite impressive, but thats not what normally happens with the vast majority of shooters. I would hazzard a guess from years of observation the average hunting rifle purchaser is doing great to hit soda cans at 50 yards standing with their deer slayer. Military qualification shooting on pop up range certainly shows you can train people to get consistent hits at 400 yards on man sized targets from prone with irons but very few folks get much training or shoot very many rounds. Plus as distance stretches variables stack and hit percentages drop, especially as target size decreases.

Are there great long distance shooters? Absolutely yes. Are they the average guy who bought a scoped rifle? No. Can you learn to be a good long range shot? Yes. Just find the right coaches, practice form and trigger control, and get out to shoot.

I pretty much agree with you however I hope folks, on average, are better than this (bold txt) if so desired. Have you visited CMP Talladega yet?

 

[someguy2800]

Soda cans standing offhand at 50 yards is better than I can do. I'm probably a 3-4" group at that range offhand. At 200 yards I can hit my 10" plate maybe 60 or 70% hits. I'm not much of an offhand shot with a rifle. With a bipod or just rested on something such as the side of a tree, soda can at 100 yards is not an issue. With a front and rear bag probably 300 yards. The most I've ever shot at was 600 which is far of an open space as I have ever found to shoot. We used to shoot empty 1lb propane cylinders at that range with a bipod and rear bag. Not first shot hit but we could get on it without issue.

My comfortable hunting range is dependant on what kind of rest is at hand when the opportunity presents itself. On deer size game from standing 50 yards is about my limit. Sitting maybe 100 yards. With a front rest of some kind like the edge of a deer stand or tree 200+. My standard of deer hunting accuracy is my max range is whatever range I can put a cold bore shot into a 4" circle from field position. I don't pull the trigger unless I am damb well 100% sure my hit will be in the kill zone. I've watched bucks walk away at 150 yards just because I could not get in a steady enough position to be comfortable taking a shot.

I've learned people out west have a whole different perspective on range since everything is wide open spaces where you can see for miles. They have to learn to make hits on game at 400+ yards out of necessity. Those of us in woods county have never faced this problem because deer don't wander around in the open if they have a choice so our shots are usually 150 yards or less and we have about 4 seconds to do it. Out west you have time to stalk and use the range finder and dial elevation and windage and all that which we do not have the luxury of time, or the need to do.

 

[illinoisburt]

Average shooter... Yeah that's about what I see most of the time. Between indoor ranges in Chicagoland (25-50 yards) and outdoor here in Alabama thats about right! Lots of folks like making noise and are super happy with hitting somewhere on paper. They generally stink from all positions including from benches. Yes they will usually get within a foot or two at 100 yards but hitting a bullseye consistently is not too common.

CMP - No but a lot of friends have. I can shoot at home if I want to, but generally don't to keep my horses calm and not bug my neighbors. There are two WMA and forest service ranges 20-30 minutes away with 100 yards so we get out pretty regularly if its not raining or hotter than all get out. We setup in the fields for occasional longer ranges in the fall like 300-400 yards. Occasionally go further just for giggles. Few years ago would go out to 600 to 1000 yard ranges every summer when I lived in Illinois for fun since deer season was slug guns and revolvers.

* I was a member at a 200 yard club in Illinois for couple decades and shot rimfire, 30 cal, and service rifle matches there off and on over the years. Rifle ranges in general are few and far between in the land of lincoln. Plenty of short indoor ones around though.

 

[someguy2800]

I used to volunteer my time at the local sportsmans club range the weekend before deer hunting to help people sight in there rifles. It was a bit disheartening at times. There was an alarming number of people that did not know how scope turrets operated and struggled to put a round on paper. Some people flinched so bad or were so incompetent at adjusting a scope that I would sight the rifle in for them because they were uncoachable. What really struck me is the amount of people brought there deer rifles in that need 12 minutes of adjustment to zero the rifle, and I know darn well they were hunting with that rifle in that configuration for years. These were the people that I would watch me shoot shotgun shells off the berm with a bipod and bag and look at me like I was a god. The one that sticks in my mind vividly was a guy with a slug gun shooting at a 16" cardboard box at 50 yards. He made scope adjustments two revolutions of the turrets at a time and after finally hitting the box in the corner on the 5th shot said that good and packed up his gun and left. That weekend before deer hunting shoot day really was not representative due to all the once a year shooter that came out. I would say the average deer hunter I used to see at the range is probably a 2-4 moa shooter from a rest, Mabey 6 moa from there elbows. I've seen lots of people much better at shooting rifle offhand than me that's for certain. I can hold my own with 95% off the bench though or with a pistol.

One of the most impressive displays I've ever seen was a guy shooting an iron sighted 5" 1911 pistol at 100 yards on a 6" plate, and he rarely missed

 

[Poper]

If a body wants to be a better shooter out to 550+ yards, get into metallic silhouette competition. When a person can consistently knock down the the 500 meter ram 50% of the time, they are a very good shooter. I am happy to get 3 of 10 during a match. My hunting buddies (they do not compete) say I am probably the best shot in camp. I beg to differ, though. I practice often (at least once a week) and after several years shooting silhouettes, I still struggle to stay within "A" Class.

Knocking down that 500 meter ram offhand without any support is a real hoot!

 

[jmr40]

People used to say a sub 4 minute mile was impossible. When trains were 1st coming into use people thought that a human man not be able to survive at speeds much over 25 mph. It hasn't been that many years ago when a 2 MOA rifle was the norm, and with the bullets and optics available a 200-300 yards was a long shot.

But things have changed. Anyone with a modern rifle, shooting quality ammo with a decent scope should be able to hit a deer size target at 300 yards in a calm wind. With just a little practice and with a range finder 400 just ain't that hard and out to 600 can be accomplished without any special expensive gear. Out to 300 yards modern cartridges don't drop enough to matter. Beyond 300 yards even the flattest shooting rounds drop enough to matter, but with a range finder and a scope with multiple aiming points that is easily compensated for.

The wildcard is the wind. If there is much at all that is where things get complicated beyond about 300 yards and taking the shot becomes more questionable. It is REAL easy to figure bullet drop and compensate for it way on out there. But the wind is more art than science.

I don't have any special target rigs. Using simple hunting rifles with hunting scopes ( most do have multiple aiming points) I've practiced out to 600 yards with pretty good success. And from field positions. I use improvised rests, tree trunks, shooting sticks, off a pack, etc. I don't even take 50 yard shots offhand unless there is no other option. It isn't that I can't, I do practice for that and have hit deer out to 200 yards offhand, but an improvised rest is always better than none.

I've never had the need to shoot at game over 200 yards, yet. But I've practiced enough at longer ranges that I'd pull the trigger on a 400 yard shot as long as the wind were cooperating. If windy, 250-300 would likely be my limit. My trigger time at 600 is more limited. But so far, I've not fired a shot in practice at 600 yards that wouldn't have been in the kill zone. And the cartridges I use still have enough punch for 600. But for now 400-500 is my self imposed limit.

Did this a few weeks ago. Prone with shooting sticks at 1/4 mile with my 30-06. No shots over 3" from the aiming point.

 

[Demi-human]

Certainly practice is the important thing. When one is buying something that can be described as a "Long Range Rig" as opposed to "Hunting Rifle" there are certain attributes that make it easier for the Long Game. Indeed, the things that make it good for long range would hinder it's performance for other shooting sports. My fifteen pound, thirty inch barreled Savage would make a terrible, anything, other than a Target Rifle. It, very easily, makes four inch groups at six hundred and fourty yards. (Seriously. It makes me look like I know what I'm doing!)

I have only hit the target a handful of times with my AR. I got tired of wasting ammunition.

 

[Captcurt]

We have access to a 700 yard range and have shot out to 500. With known range and little or no wind I can consistently ring a 6" plate at 500. This is with a B-14 Bergara in 6.5 Creedmoor with a cheap Vortex Crossfire 6X18. You are looking at less than a $1000 rig. I had a Ruger American that shot better than the Bergara. You might need high dollar rifles and optics at 1000+ yards but many run-of-the-mill deer rifles will suffice out to 600 yards.

 

[illinoisburt]

Mechanical ability of the guns is generally not the question. We do indeed live in a time of wonderfully accurate rifles and precision optics. What is lacking is operator skill. Per your original question I truly believe the answer is very few as a percentage of all rifle owners. Shooting is a learned skill. Without practice it isn't super likely to be have those skills. I feel confident in saying most hunting rifles puchased will see less than 100 rounds in a year's time. Factory or gunsmith boresighting is generally the only adjustment a large percentage of those guns ever receive from what I have seen myself or heard from gunsmiths and salespeople I know.

 

[someguy2800]

I should note too that when I used to shoot propane bottles at 600 that was with a Tikka T3 light in 25-06 with a $100 scope. I have a couple target rifles now that I'm certain I could do better with but havn't gotten to try it yet. I still would not do it on game under any circumstances. I'm just not there with my ranging and wind correction.

 

[someguy2800]

Mechanical ability of the guns is generally not the question. We do indeed live in a time of wonderfully accurate rifles and precision optics. What is lacking is operator skill. Per your original question I truly believe the answer is very few as a percentage of all rifle owners. Shooting is a learned skill. Without practice it isn't super likely to be have those skills. I feel confident in saying most hunting rifles puchased will see less than 100 rounds in a year's time. Factory or gunsmith boresighting is generally the only adjustment a large percentage of those guns ever receive from what I have seen myself or heard from gunsmiths and salespeople I know.

Most hunting rifles sold will take 2 years to get through the first box of 20.

 

[Nature Boy]

The problem I find with my hunting rifles shooting consistently tight groups, at any distance, is in their ergonomics, barrels and triggers. In other words, they aren't designed for target work. This is even more apparent to me when I've spent a lot of time behind my target rig, then switch to one of my hunting rifles.

Can't get a repeatable cheek weld and head position behind the scope = variation in down range results
2 1/2 lb trigger pull = variation in down range results
Sporter weight barrel heats up quick = variation in down range results

I know I shoot over 3,000 rounds a year, most of it with a target rifle, so I have a good gauge of my abilities. I'm very comfortable in saying I can keep a 20 shot string inside of 5 inches at 500 yards, and a somewhat less confident 20 shots inside 15 inches at 1,000 yards ...........as long as the wind isn't nasty.

And still, I won't shoot a buck over 200 yards. The only thing I hate more than tracking a wounded deer is losing one.

 

[M118LR]

There is a marksmanship problem that runs rampant through most forums. Most of Big Greens Militarily trained folks nowadays don't venture past the 300 yard line. At least Uncle Sam's Misguided Children must attempt shoots on the 500 yard line. To be humane, hunting distances should be limited to point blank range (300 yards). Now way back when..... once you consistently scored at the EXPERT level you might get a chance to enter Precision Rifle Training. The standards for folks shooting at the 1000 yard line where pretty high. But RIGHT COAST folks with 20 Bucks in thier pockets can experience actual long range shooting provided they fill out the proper forms.

https://stewart.armymwr.com/calendar/event/long-range-shoot/2190719/25523

Just a gentle reminder, you can be effective with Federal .308 Win 168 grain Match at 750 yards. But should you decide that you want to ring the metal gong at 1000 yards, you might need a .308 Win 175 grain Match load. So for all those apple-seeds, leave the Mexican Match Ammo at the house if you want to compete at the 1K line. JMHO.

 

[Varminterror]

I’d never consider myself anything more than an average guy, and yes, I regularly shoot long range: 800-1200yrds. No, it does not take $5000+ rifles and scopes, or super magnum cartridges and premium bullets. But all of the above sure does help.

According to the NRA and Highpower competition rules, long range is past 600, technically 1,000, with 600 being “mid range,” 300 being “short range.” Throw up a 24” target at 1,000yrds - a bit smaller than a baseball at 100yrds - and life really isn’t hard. On still days, getting down on 6-8” targets is about where I start to fall apart, good days I’ll reliably hit the 6”, bad days I have to focus to reliably hit the 8”, and worst of days, I have to play with 66% IPSC’s at 12”x20” or I’ll be wasting ammo. That’s somewhere between smaller than a dime to a half dollar at 100yrds. Throw 20mph standing and gusting 40mph winds on that - what I call “learning conditions” - and I beg to find my 16” gong, and live on the 24” gong - and I MUST have a good spotter on hand.

It shouldn’t be so surprising to hear guys are actually doing something like 1,000yrd shooting, even if you haven’t been lucky enough to have a place to have tried it yourself. I can’t juggle - but I know guys who can and do.

I started long range shooting - beyond 600yrds - when I was 12. I’ve killed dozens of coyotes in the last couple of decades since then past 600, and even more prairie dogs. Thousands and thousands of impacts on steel. I have two AR’s and a specialty pistol which have never been shot shorter than 500yrds, save 5 shots to establish a 100yrd zero. Too much work to set up extra targets, whereas I leave my 500-1200yrd targets up all year.

 

[M118LR]

Varminterror I've got to admit that I ain't ate any creature that I expended a round upon at a distance over 300 yards. But I've been paid Professionally by Uncle Sam to Exterminate Vermin at distances that make 1000 yard zeros simply talking points. But this was all covered by Uncle Sams Dime.

 

[Newtosavage]

People who can consistently make first round hits 600 yards and beyond aren't shooting several times a year, they're often shooting several times a week. Consider this quote from Accurateshooter.com on a Q&A with multi FT-R champion Derek Rodgers:

"Q: How many rounds do you shoot in a year and how often do you practice?

I shoot 3000+ rounds a year. I try to shoot 1 x a week if I can get away in the evening or on the weekend. If I am close to finding a load I may try to get out more until I exhaust that load as an option. So there may be occasions that I will try to shoot three times a week. Fortunately, the winters are mild in New Mexico and it allows me to shoot year round. I actually shoot more when it is colder. The summer sun here can create mirage that makes it nearly impossible to learn anything."​

Note the last sentence in that quote. The goal of his range time is to gather data and implement that data in a productive way.

Hell, I do nearly that much and I just hunt. LOL

Based on the number of primers I've bought in the past year, I've shot around 2000 handloads through 4 hunting rifles (primarily 3).

Guess I figure serious FT-R guys were shooting 3-4 times/week.

 

[drobs]

There was a public range (closed now I believe) in Clarkridge Arkansas that had steel gongs out to 700yds plus rented machine guns.
Shooting from a sand bagged bench with my full length M1A, using iron sights and surplus South African 7.62x51 ammo found I could get to the 500yd gongs without a sight adjustment.
700yds took a significant amount of elevation adjustments to hit.

The fellas using their 300 win mags, high powered scopes, and lead sled's seemed a little put off by me using iron sights but all commented - "yep the caliber will get there."
I was a peacetime (1990's) Army Reservist but had a Vietnam era Chief Warrant Office give me some pointers on sling usage before he retired.

I don't know about now but when I was in the Army didn't teach sling usage for shooting. Had to go to the Marines for that.

 

[SamT1]

The internet can be very discouraging for anyone new or untrained in shooting. Everyone online is an expert marksman. Every gun even the cheapos shoots MOA. There’s lots of varying opinions on optics.

I used to spend a lot of time at a local shooting range that was free. It was an abandoned police range that no one locked the gate on. This was open country where being able to shoot a deer at 500 yards would be of great value.

I’d say the average shooter who came in there had “killed a deer at 450 last year” and was just there to “check zero” Incase something happened in the safe all year.
I’ve seen guys shoot for grouping pulling ammo from several different boxes of ammo to do it.
Guys who would show me the different bullets they intended to select based on size of deer and yardage. All mind you with the same gun and zero settings.

Your average joe from a rest shoots 3 MOA with a scope. 10 MOA open sights.
Off hand I’d see very few guys that could hit my 12” gong I used for plinking magnum pistols.

I grew up listening to the great marksman stories of many hunters, war vets, the internet stories, and my dads hunting buddies. I always felt like a looser because i was lucky to hit a beer can at 100 with my model 700 .270 with $40 scope on it and I couldn’t pull the Kentucky windage in anything past 400. Later I’d find out that my stock wasn’t floated and was pushing real hard in on on side. You can’t shoot moa leaning against a tree. Most hunting stories are lies. It takes excellent optics to shoot past 400 or precision irons of some sort.

So I pull the trigger almost every day. With a gun that from a rest will do 1/2 MOA. I know my dial ups to 800, but need the app for anything between yardage’s past 400. $900 gun with a $600 scope plus other accessories. If I pull up to a friends range and shoot the human silouete at 300 yards out the pickup window I’ll hit it 90% but it groups all over it. From the rest 100% even in wind .67 MoA if there is no wind. I struggle to hit MOA plates past 600 my gun needs a trigger and I need practice. It’s possible but the percentage of shooters who can hit at long range is very small. Maybe 10% of what would be claimed on a survey.

If I was shooting targets having a good day and a deer wandered into my range and started licking the 800 yard plate. I’d have no issue shooting him. I’d probably double tap him though to be safe. (He won’t know where to run anyways at 800 being shot at with a suppressor). I wouldn’t feel bad anyway if he ran off injured. He will die somewhere and no longer be a danger to everyone driving and my crops. Don’t get me started on what the hunting for money industry has done to our local ag economy since it’s boom in the late 90’s early 2000’s