long range scope options
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Jim Watson
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The nice thing about a good scope is, you are not going to wear it out looking through it.
It can outlast many barrels and then transfer to the latest rage in rifles at no added cost.
There was an old gunzine article by the guy who had a Zeiss on his Marlin .35 lever action. His bud called it the "Upside Down Rifle" because the scope cost more than the gun. But the owner said its superior optics made it worthwhile even at woods deer hunting ranges.
It can outlast many barrels and then transfer to the latest rage in rifles at no added cost.
There was an old gunzine article by the guy who had a Zeiss on his Marlin .35 lever action. His bud called it the "Upside Down Rifle" because the scope cost more than the gun. But the owner said its superior optics made it worthwhile even at woods deer hunting ranges.
coloradokevin
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Jim, that idea of an "upside down" rifle (as you mentioned) always seemed odd to me when I was young. But, experience is a great teacher, and I wouldn't hesitate to run a $2-3K optic on an accurate $500-1,500 gun.
As someone once described it to me, it's a lot easier to make a straight pipe than it is to make an optic that will handle all of the precise adjustments that are required of it. That's a gross oversimplification, but the point is somewhat valid!
For example, with my $300 Weaver scope my Tikka is a good rifle. With my $3,000 S&B that rifle is phenomenal. For the 100-yard shooter who never really does anything other than punching paper at that distance, the difference can be hard to perceive. But, throw a target out there somewhere between 1/2 and 1 mile away, and the difference quickly becomes obvious!
I think the same can be said for scope rings / mounts. I laugh every time I see a $2K scope sitting in a crappy $30 set of rings. The interface between the rifle and the scope should be solid. I go for VERY solid in this case, and run my S&B in a Spuhr ISM. It was quite expensive for a mount, but it has a built in level and holds that scope rock-solid.
As someone once described it to me, it's a lot easier to make a straight pipe than it is to make an optic that will handle all of the precise adjustments that are required of it. That's a gross oversimplification, but the point is somewhat valid!
For example, with my $300 Weaver scope my Tikka is a good rifle. With my $3,000 S&B that rifle is phenomenal. For the 100-yard shooter who never really does anything other than punching paper at that distance, the difference can be hard to perceive. But, throw a target out there somewhere between 1/2 and 1 mile away, and the difference quickly becomes obvious!
I think the same can be said for scope rings / mounts. I laugh every time I see a $2K scope sitting in a crappy $30 set of rings. The interface between the rifle and the scope should be solid. I go for VERY solid in this case, and run my S&B in a Spuhr ISM. It was quite expensive for a mount, but it has a built in level and holds that scope rock-solid.
Thanks again for all of the replies. I am leaning towards the Vortex Viper 6x24 ffp. One range that I might shoot requires a mildot ffp reticle scope. At this time, I just can't rationalize spending over $1k on a scope. I need to look through one to see if my astigmatism will come into play with an illuminated reticle. I discovered that I needed a single dot reticle during my red dot sight purchase process because of my astigmatism.
Jim Watson
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I think you have mentioned this before. Do they give a reason or even an attempt at justifying that?
Personally, I wouldn't buy the 6-24 pst. I shoot a 5-20 vortex razor, and rarely ever go above 12x. High magnification is over rated when shooting at 1-2moa sized targets out to 1000 yards.
If Vortex would have offered a 3-12 razor, I would have been all over it. All I need is good enough glass to identify the target, 1/2 mil reticle, matching turrets that actually track true, and ffp. Don't discount a good fixed power scope like the ss 10x hd, sold by swfa.
If Vortex would have offered a 3-12 razor, I would have been all over it. All I need is good enough glass to identify the target, 1/2 mil reticle, matching turrets that actually track true, and ffp. Don't discount a good fixed power scope like the ss 10x hd, sold by swfa.
More than likely, I will go to one of the ranges with my setup as is per the suggestion of the trainer at that range. I will have the opportunity to try different types of scopes, and then be able to make a more informed decision.
The range with the ffp mildot rule says they do this to allow a more consistent training program, (training program is required), to a given group at one time. They won't let you shoot with a bdc scope at all. They don't sell scopes.
From what I read, one major benefit is that the ffp mildot allows you to use lower power for ranging and shooting if needed to avoid mirage, and higher power available if useable at the time. I have never used a mildot scope, but the people I shoot with say it is absolutely necessary for long range shooting at the ranges I am considering.
The range with the ffp mildot rule says they do this to allow a more consistent training program, (training program is required), to a given group at one time. They won't let you shoot with a bdc scope at all. They don't sell scopes.
From what I read, one major benefit is that the ffp mildot allows you to use lower power for ranging and shooting if needed to avoid mirage, and higher power available if useable at the time. I have never used a mildot scope, but the people I shoot with say it is absolutely necessary for long range shooting at the ranges I am considering.
Lloyd Smale
Member
once was a day when you probably had to pay more for a good scope then you would for a good rifle but that day has passed. A decent bolt gun will set you back 600 bucks today and even a 3030 is pushing near that and you can buy a dammed fine hunting scope for 300 bucks.
when i began shooting long range targets with my .308 I did not want to invest lots of money in a scope until i knew i could do it and it was something i enjoyed, i have now invested lots of $$$ in a couple scopes
, but if you are just trying your hand at it i would get a Bushnell elite 3200 fixed 10x power. it is relatively clear and 10 power is plenty at a 14" steel plate. they are 200-300 dollars and i still have mine to this day without a problem. for a few years Barrett was even sending there 50 BMG out with this scope on top.
, but if you are just trying your hand at it i would get a Bushnell elite 3200 fixed 10x power. it is relatively clear and 10 power is plenty at a 14" steel plate. they are 200-300 dollars and i still have mine to this day without a problem. for a few years Barrett was even sending there 50 BMG out with this scope on top.
Rollis R. Karvellis
Member
I, am getting ready to start upgrading all my glass so I'm following all these threads closely.
The Bushnell Elite is a good starting point to learn on. I, bought mine originally to be able to make quick adjustments, and really didn't know much about mil type set ups, and I, still have a long way to go, but I, love them.
A ballistic program called Strelok Pro can help you learn the different configuration of many popular brands, and how they function, including the different zero for the different power settings on SFP models.
The Bushnell Elite is a good starting point to learn on. I, bought mine originally to be able to make quick adjustments, and really didn't know much about mil type set ups, and I, still have a long way to go, but I, love them.
A ballistic program called Strelok Pro can help you learn the different configuration of many popular brands, and how they function, including the different zero for the different power settings on SFP models.
Rollis, if you buy a scope, please tell us of your purchase and results. I am about to buy a Vortex pst ffp unless I am steered another direction. The only other scope at the same price point that I might grab would be a Weaver. I read nothing but good things about the Vortex with the exception of one guy with one bad experience who splits wood and busts rocks with his scopes, (exaggeration).
The_Next_Generation
Member
There is some really great advice on here already, but I figured I'd throw in my .02
The SWFA SS 10x42 is a pretty outstanding piece of glass, especially at its price-point. It is extremely durable, tracks VERY well, has tons of internal adjustment since it is a fixed power, and is rated for routine use on 50BMG rifles. SWFA now makes a model with a Mil reticle and Mil turrets, which is what I have now. For $300 plus S/H, it is a tough scope to beat. They make other, fancier models as well, but of course extras like variable zoom and illumination add to cost.
I have only had one issue with one, and SWFA took care of me quickly and at no cost (paid shipping both ways).
Sure, you'll get better glass with the other premium scopes, but I doubt they will be any more durable. TiborasaurusRex on YouTube dropped his from something like 6 feet onto concrete and it worked. I have yet to come up short with the SWFA.
The SWFA SS 10x42 is a pretty outstanding piece of glass, especially at its price-point. It is extremely durable, tracks VERY well, has tons of internal adjustment since it is a fixed power, and is rated for routine use on 50BMG rifles. SWFA now makes a model with a Mil reticle and Mil turrets, which is what I have now. For $300 plus S/H, it is a tough scope to beat. They make other, fancier models as well, but of course extras like variable zoom and illumination add to cost.
I have only had one issue with one, and SWFA took care of me quickly and at no cost (paid shipping both ways).
Sure, you'll get better glass with the other premium scopes, but I doubt they will be any more durable. TiborasaurusRex on YouTube dropped his from something like 6 feet onto concrete and it worked. I have yet to come up short with the SWFA.
Rollis R. Karvellis
Member
Unless something unexpected happens I, probably won't make my purchase until after I, get my tax return.
If I, had the money today I, would have to choose between these two.
Vortex HS/T 6-24 SFP either with a Mil/Mil, or Moa/Moa, either would be fine as long as they matched. $650.00
Or the Weaver Tactical 6-20 FFP Mil/Mil at $800.00
Those prices are approximate, from SWFA, I'm not sure what the Optic Planet price will be.
If it wasn't for the SFP of the Vortex, and unless if had a poor reputation, which so far I, haven't found in my limited research, it would be the hands down winner.
If I, had the money today I, would have to choose between these two.
Vortex HS/T 6-24 SFP either with a Mil/Mil, or Moa/Moa, either would be fine as long as they matched. $650.00
Or the Weaver Tactical 6-20 FFP Mil/Mil at $800.00
Those prices are approximate, from SWFA, I'm not sure what the Optic Planet price will be.
If it wasn't for the SFP of the Vortex, and unless if had a poor reputation, which so far I, haven't found in my limited research, it would be the hands down winner.
allaroundhunter
Member
Between those two, I would get the Vortex without a doubt (or up it to the FFP version).
The Weaver only has 16 mils of internal elevation adjustment, whereas the Vortex has 19 mils. When you get to pushing the limits of your gun, those 3 Mills can end up making a bug difference. And then I like Vortex's EBR-1 reticle more than a standard mil dot reticle. The EBR-2c reticle is awesome as well.
The Weaver only has 16 mils of internal elevation adjustment, whereas the Vortex has 19 mils. When you get to pushing the limits of your gun, those 3 Mills can end up making a bug difference. And then I like Vortex's EBR-1 reticle more than a standard mil dot reticle. The EBR-2c reticle is awesome as well.
huntinfool87
Member
I'm looking at building a budget tactical rifle and the best scope I have found for this application under $500 is a swfa 10x42 now it's no nightforce or us optics but for the price it is WAY better than anything in its price range.
Disclaimers:
My 20" .308 petered out at 1,040 yards - targets farther away than that I just couldn't hit. With your longer barrel it's possible you can reach out a bit farther than that.
The 1,000 yard targets I was shooting were about 10 inches square (linearly about half the size you'll be shooting at), and I was shooting it with a ten power scope. I didn't find 10 power particularly limiting, but that's because the optics were really clear and I had no problem finding 10" targets at the distances I was shooting. Variable or higher power is good, but not at the cost of clarity. Translation: Give me good, clean optics before you give me more range.
What you'll be paying for is optics quality (important), consistency (important), and durability (maybe important). Whatever you do, buy something with a good warranty, and I've seen a Nightforce fail with < 500 rounds through it. These are mechanical, and mechanical things can break, though you minimize your chances by paying more money.
Taliv's questions are still relevant though. Are you going to be doing hold-overs (this helps folks recommend reticles)? Will you be ranging with a laser, the scope itself, or only shooting targets at known distances? Are you going to be shooting for best group, or is a couple of inches on a man-sized silhouette no big deal?
- I like US Optics scopes, but I've been known to buy them used from more serious shooters who are moving to Schmidt & Bender.
- I've been shooting at > 1,000 yards for one class and not since. Living in Georgia makes that harder to do than if I lived further out west, but I'm working on it.
- I tried to review some of the cheaper options a while back and I offered some opinions there. It's worth what it's worth.
My 20" .308 petered out at 1,040 yards - targets farther away than that I just couldn't hit. With your longer barrel it's possible you can reach out a bit farther than that.
The 1,000 yard targets I was shooting were about 10 inches square (linearly about half the size you'll be shooting at), and I was shooting it with a ten power scope. I didn't find 10 power particularly limiting, but that's because the optics were really clear and I had no problem finding 10" targets at the distances I was shooting. Variable or higher power is good, but not at the cost of clarity. Translation: Give me good, clean optics before you give me more range.
What you'll be paying for is optics quality (important), consistency (important), and durability (maybe important). Whatever you do, buy something with a good warranty, and I've seen a Nightforce fail with < 500 rounds through it. These are mechanical, and mechanical things can break, though you minimize your chances by paying more money.
Taliv's questions are still relevant though. Are you going to be doing hold-overs (this helps folks recommend reticles)? Will you be ranging with a laser, the scope itself, or only shooting targets at known distances? Are you going to be shooting for best group, or is a couple of inches on a man-sized silhouette no big deal?
Ar180shooter
Member
It's actually a 4-20, but that's beside the point. I have one on my CZ 452 Varmint and it's fantastic. I haven't owned a Viper, but I've owned several other Vortex products, and based on my experiences with them, you can't go wrong with the Viper either. That said, the Weaver is a step above the Viper IMO, and is close to or on par with the Razor line (I've owned 2 optics from that line, so I feel I have a good basis for comparison).
Ar180shooter
Member
True, but that's something that can be easily remedied with a canted base.
allaroundhunter
Member
A canted base can be applied to either scope. What I'm saying is that all else being equal, you will run out of adjustment faster with the Weaver.
Ar180shooter
Member
You look at more than one aspect of the scope when making purchasing decisions. 16 mil is plenty of adjustment for most applications, and when you can augment this with canted bases, there is no meaningful difference.
CaliCoastie
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i dont shoot long range yet, but i recently got a vortex viper pst ffp in 2.5-10 power to run on my hunting 7mm-08. i would feel very comfortable running this out to 100yards(with the scope). clear, and have giving it a bit of a beating this last season running up and down mountans and still popped a deer in the neck at about 100yards with no problems. Im not huge on big power but i also havent tried over 300yards.
Rollis R. Karvellis
Member
I, am pretty much settled on the Vortex because of the price and power range. I, like having the ability to spot without having to move off the rifle.
And even though most of my shooting is under 300 yards, experience has taught me that having some extra power with good glass can mean the difference between a groundhog getting rolled, or sitting and laughing at you.
And even though most of my shooting is under 300 yards, experience has taught me that having some extra power with good glass can mean the difference between a groundhog getting rolled, or sitting and laughing at you.
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