long range scope options

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jlr1962

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I want to shoot long range at one of 3 different locations in the area. I have talked to 3 different 1000 yard range employee/trainer/rso folks. All 3 needed to know the specifics of my rifle. All 3 recommended different optics of course. I look here and other forums, all of the respected posters offer their advice. Much Thanks. The general opinion seems to be that you have to spend $600 minimum, to $1500 ++ preferred, to get an adequate scope for long range targets at unknown distances.

Of course I assumed initially that all of them wanted to sell me a scope. I was wrong. Only 1 had scopes for sale, and they are competitively priced.

I am starting to buy into the need for a new scope after doing a simple test of my current scopes. I was told by another shooter at the range who uses expensive scopes, to adjust the turrets up and down/back and forth about 20 clicks or so several times, and test the zero. I was very disappointed with the results. Left alone, my current scopes do just fine. They hold their zero. Sitting at 100 yards, I would have no reason to adjust, and never had the need to adjust other than after removing a scope for whatever reason.

Options???
 
you really need to be more specific about what you plan to do with the rifle/scope.

1000 yard benchrest is way different than sniper/PRS matches, which are way different than lounging around ringing steel targets on sunny Sunday afternoons.

zak smith has some very good articles which are good basic education http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=154213
after reading those, watch the sniper101 videos from tiborasaurus rex on the topic

then come back and we can give you specifics on which optic would suit your needs
 
Depends on your definition of long range shooting and your abilities. I've had good luck with Weaver target scopes both variable and fixed power. Have shot the box and they all have come back to zero. Most can be had under $400. I've picked a couple up around $200-250 used. Mine get dialed up/ down, L/R in sillouete matches. Talk to a GOOD competitive shooter and the only limit is your wallet.
 
The ranges have up to 1000 - 1100 yards available max distance. One of the ranges offer target setups with unknown distance between 500 to 1000. I am shooting a 308 with a 26" barrel. One range is putting an 800 yard limit on a 308 shooter.
 
distance has very little to do with it. it's not really a driving requirement
 
so......man-sized steel plates at unknown distances out to approx 1000yds? or are you trying to hit something smaller? and will you be just trying to ring the gong for fun, or are you trying to shoot more competitively?

and lastly, what are you willing to spend, knowing that (for example) if you say "$461 absolute max", most folks will still recommend something above $462.
 
taliv makes a number of good points but there are some absolutes. Without doing any research and with zero experience a new user would do quite well to buy a Vortex Viper PST FFP with either moa/moa or mil/mil. I prefer the latter but the important thing is that the reticle and adjustments are in the same units. The reason why I suggest this particular scope is (A.) because I just ordered one, (B.) because it's reasonably priced and (C.) because even if you outgrow the scope, it would still be a scope worth keeping and moving to another rifle. That scope has a zero stop, illuminated reticle, decent glass, a good adjustment range, a good warranty and is FFP along with matching reticle/adjustments. Kind of hard to beat at that price point. I can't stand incrementalism but I've fallen victim to it many times over the years and this scope would save you from that. I have a couple of Premier Reticles scopes (FFP), a Nightforce (FFP) and a number of Leupold Mark 4s (one FFP model) but I'm slowly divesting myself of "tactical" scopes that aren't front focal and don't have matching reticle/adjustments. I'm perfectly content with Zeiss Conquest scopes and RZ reticles for lightweight hunting rifles, but scopes for tactical rifles or varmint hunting rifles need more features.
 
A long time ago I started shooting 1000 yard matches. An old high master told me that 10X was plenty. Any thing with more power would be affected by mirage. He sold me an old Weaver T10 with external turret adjustments. It has more than enough elevation for long range and I didn't have to buy a 20 minute elevation base. He was correct about the mirage and scope power. If the backer has light behind it I can see the 30 cal hole before the pits pull my target down if it is in the black.
 
Thanks for the input everybody. I don't know what the target configuration is at each place. I am sure they are whatever is typical for the given distance. I am wondering about the power needed. One shooter recommended a fixed 10 power. That seems low if and when I shoot at 800 or more. I have to use a spotting scope when checking paper targets from 100 yards with a 3x9 scope.
I can see holes with 12 and up @ 100 yards with my other scopes.

Do they typically pair people together? Can you see your hits and misses with a steel reactive target when shooting solo, or do these type of ranges pair shooters?
 
a 6-20 (or 25 x) is very useful , the Vortex Viper PST is very nice I just built a DMR with one on it.. I like my old Leupold Mark 4 M1 16x with mildots which was on my .50 and I shot Red Rock out to 2200 yards with it very nicely.A fixed 16X on a big rifle with a Doctor RMR on a GG&G mount solves most problems :) I have a night Force 3.5-15 NXS on my Remington 5R based .308 precision rifle and that sure is superb glass IMHO and built like a tank but not overly bulky. Premiers, US Optics and S&B ect. are out of my league , if I was an F class competitor tho ............:)
 
For .308 and ~1000 yards, I'd get a Zeiss Conquest HD5, 5-25x with the RZ-1000 reticle. It's calibrated for a 168-175gr .308 bullet with BDC from 100-1000 yards. The center crosshair is 500 yards.
 
your basic requirements that drive scope choices are around what you'll be doing with it

plinking? f-class? tactical/sniper matches? hunting?

are you under a tight time limit? i.e. just a couple seconds per target, or a generous one like f-class where you get 1 minute per target?
targets large or small? multiple targets? are they at different UKD distances or always the same distance? moving?
or shooting same piece of paper 20 times in a row?
are you using the scope for observation? or just shooting?
 
Taliv, I am not sure whitch range I will join. At this time I don't see myself in any competitions. I envision having to shoot from the prone position or bench at steel targets of unknown distance and size, no time limits. Mildot ffp reticle with milirad adjustment on the turret, not under a cap. No moving targets. I would like to use the scope do observation as well to avoid the need for another spotting scope.

I am seeing BIG differences in pricing (up to 50%) from different sources. I won't name the high price places as I don't want my posts deleted. Is there any one source the offers good pricing, selection, accurate real time inventory, immediate shipping, and a secured connection during checkout?

Thanks to everyone for the responses.
 
I unfortunately only have 1 range within about 5 hours that has anything past 200yds that is NOT like $400 a year to join. It goes up to 1000yds but you have to reserve it as it crosses pathes with other ranges so they have to close them down.

I intend to get something that I can reach that distance with but then will likely only shoot 200yds.

I am beginning to think I am nuts for building a precision AR10 that is gonna run $4k +/- to shoot once or twice at 1000yds and then almost always at 200yds in.
 
If budget is less of a concern for you, Nightforce is one of the best options. Long range shooting is their wheelhouse and their quality is top tier.

However, like 1858 pointed out to you, the Vortex Viper PST FFP is one hell of a scope for the price point. Probably the best bang for your buck especially when just starting off. You can always upgrade from it but I would be surprised if you outgrow it.

Matt S.
 
HRnifhtmare: Can't disagree with the advice given above for a real competitor at these ranges, but for those of us who were just having fun, I seriously doubt anybody needs to spend $4000. This afternoon I checked out two more of my rifles at 600 yards. I'm somewhat of a maverick at trying to have a lot of fun with very little money, which is helped by hand loading of course.

The cheapest rifle that I have that can hit the 800 yard target is a grand total of $170: mosin nagant with Cut down, recrowned, sleeved barrel, and $50 pistol scope. Pretty reliable at 600 yards to ring the gong, one out of three at 800.

(yes guys this is just for fun!)

My 7 mm 08 hunting rifle is considerably better, but it is just a savage with a fancy Shilen barrel and a Walmart adjustable objective $69. 16 power scope. Really sort of a one MOA give or take rifle, this is a lot of fun at longer distances because it is not a benchrest kind of rifle.

My benchrest was really built for 100 yards, but it's another savage with a bull shilen barrel, shooting six PPC, pretty reasonable scope, benchrest forearm, Easilyy made pretty good shots at 600 yards today. It is a 1/3 MOA or maybe better gun--still learning from it.

I've got ARs in 308 and 6.8 SPC, and the 308 should easily make it to 1000 yards, although with a bit reduced oomph.

My 50 Cal would probably do this pretty easily, I just haven't tried it yet. It has the same scope as the hunting rifle, no problems yet. A really nice scope would be a really nice thing, having nice turrets is certainly a lot of fun!


I would really heartedly encourage you to spend more time building and learning than buying.
 
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Meanwhile, since these guys have given us great advice, I'm going to check out those scopes!
 
Can someone tell me why the Vortex Viper doesn't come with flip ups? I love this scope and I don't know why they didn't provide anything to protect the glass.
Thanks,
Joe
 
If you can't spend all that money on a Nightforce, Leupold, Schmidt & Bender or Zeiss scopes take a look at the Falcon Menace line of scopes. They cost between $359 and $599 and the reviews are excellent. You get a lot of scope for not a lot of money and like I said, the reviews are excellent.
 
Can someone tell me why the Vortex Viper doesn't come with flip ups? I love this scope and I don't know why they didn't provide anything to protect the glass.
Thanks,
Joe
It comes with a bikini style lense cap.


OP: I have a Vortex Viper PST FFP 6-24x50. Mine has the EBR-2c reticle which I really like. For the past 2 months I have used it for exacting what you want, shooting my 26" .308 or to 1000 yards.

Fortunately, I'm now switching to a 6.5 ;)
 
Taliv isn't wrong in what he's telling you, but maybe it would help to explain some of the fundamental differences you'll notice between scopes, and how that will impact your ability to use it for your intended purposes.

For example, for the tactical and field shooting world a first focal plane (FFP) scope with a "graduated" reticle (MIL or MOA, your choice) is usually preferred. When a scope is built in the FFP the reticle will always cover the same amount of the target, at any magnification. This will give the appearance of a reticle "shrinking" or "growing" as you change magnification, but it will always cover the same amount of the target.

Your more conventional scope design (at least here in the states) is a Second Focal Plane (SFP) design. In these scopes the reticle always appears the same size as you look at it through the scope, but covers a different portion of the target as you increase or decrease magnification.

This is so easy to demonstrate in person, but it's a bit harder to describe in a text message. Maybe think of it like this:

You are shooting at 600 yards, or any long distance you choose, with a scope dialed to 10x magnification. Your buddy is watching your target with an identical scope that is dialed to 20x magnification. You take a shot and miss, and your buddy observes that your shot was 1.5 MILs to the right of the target, as observed on his own reticle. If you were both shooting SFP scopes then the amount of the "miss" observed in his reticle would not match the "1.5 MILs" you observe in your own reticle. If you were shooting FFP scopes, the amount of the needed correction would be identical, since the reticle is still covering the same amount of the target at both magnification levels.

Or, look at it this way:

You are shooting at a variety of targets at different distances during a match. The mirage is heavy, and you can't get to your maximum magnification without the targets appearing too blurry. Also, you are reducing your magnification for the closer targets, and to aid in acquiring targets at various locations (by increasing your field of view). With a first focal plane scope you will always view the sub tensions the same way. In other words, 1 MIL or 1 MOA will always be 1 MIL or 1 MOA, which corresponds to the adjustments on your elevation and windage turrets. With a second focal plane scope this is not the case.

With that said, SFP scopes are sometimes popular with shooters who are always shooting at known distances. In those scopes you can get a reticle that is most appropriate to your purposes (ideal thickness or thinness), without having to compromise between how thick a FFP reticle will look at maximum magnification, and how thin it will look at minimum magnification (in the SFP scope the reticle always looks the same from the user's perspective).

Anyway, I'm not sure I explained that very clearly, but suffice it to say that you should look into the issue of FFP vs SFP before buying a scope for long range shooting. Also, look at the different reticle designs to figure out what you might like. And, determine if you want a MIL based system or an MOA based system (make sure your turrets and reticle are in the same system… in the past there were many scopes with MIL reticles and MOA turrets. It's a plainly stupid way to do these things).

As far as reticles are concerned, there are hundreds of options out there, and it all depends what you want. Personally, I most often shoot at distances by dialing my elevation turret to compensate for the drop needed at any given distance. Then, I hold my wind calls on the reticle, rather than dialing the wind correction using the turret. I do this because it allows me to quickly adjust to changing wind conditions. For example, I was shooting at 1,000 yards yesterday, and had gusting winds that changed directions on me three times. In one shot string I had to change between a 0.6 MIL R windage hold and a 0.5 MIL L windage hold, all within about a minute and a half. Making these changes is easy on the reticle, and quick. As such, I have a reticle that allows me to precisely hold windage down to 0.1 MIL.

Another thing to think about is that scopes come in various tube diameters these days. The old school 1-inch tubes don't have a ton of room for internal adjustments, and won't let you dial as far out when you're shooting. More and more scopes are being offered in 30 and 34 mm tube diameters these days. Scopes will still vary in their amount of internal adjustment, but the larger tubes help. For example, I have a scope with a 1-inch tube that I run on one of my rifles, and it will max out the elevation dial by the time I reach about 800 yards with my .308 Win. With the 34mm tube on my Schmidt and Bender I can dial well beyond 1,000 yards without ever coming close to maxing out that elevation knob.

Magnification: Fixed magnification is simple, but limited. Variable magnification is nice for shooting in different environments, but more complex. I run a 3-20x scope, a lot of guys I shoot with run 5-25x, some run 3-10x or 4-16x, or whatever. Don't go too crazy on the top end of the magnification. You should be fine for most purposes with a top end of 20-25x. I've shot to 1,000 with 10x in the past.

Okay, enough with the "why are my needs important" answers. Here are a few scopes to think about, at different price points, mostly from lowest to highest:

Vortex Viper PST. It's a decent entry-level scope from what I've heard, and they have a great warranty. They make a FFP scope, and have some decent reticles. You can have these scopes for under $1000.

Steiner T5Xi. This is a new scope that will be released (probably) sometime this month. They're being made with high quality German glass, at a facility here in Colorado. I've been on a tour of their factory, and talked at length with the scope's design engineer. I really like the looks of this scope so far, and I think it will be a great scope for people who don't want to spend $3K on an optic. The reticle meets all of my requirements, and it has some unique features that I find attractive. You should be able to pick one of these up for less than $2K.

Nightforce. It's still a popular brand. The scopes are durable and the adjustments are solid. I'd rate their glass as a lower quality than Steiner glass (IMO), and they have limited offerings in FFP. But, they're still quite popular. Probably in the mid-2K range for a tricked out version (though it may be a bit cheaper — haven't looked at this in a while).

Schmidt and Bender. These scopes are one of the few at the very top of the heap in terms of scope quality. It's the clearest glass I've ever seen, and it's a nice solid scope. It has a zero stop, large adjustment range, some great reticle choices, and an overall fine design. I'm running one of these on my AIAX. I absolutely love the scope, but it was given to me as a gift by my better half. I probably wouldn't have thrown down that much money for an optic on my own, but I sure like the scope. They seem to go up each year, and I'd plan on a $3.5K purchase price these days.

Is a S&B worth a $1500 premium over a Steiner T5Xi, or a NightForce? That's for you to decide. Like anything else, you need to pay the basic price for admission to this game… after that it's a game of diminishing returns (you pay a lot for a little extra benefit at the top end of the game).


FINAL THOUGHTS:

Don't skimp on your glass, it's arguably much more important than the rifle itself. At one time I had my $3,500 S&B on my $800 Tikka. People laughed at me for running that setup, until they saw how well it shot.

But, if you don't have the cash now, don't think that you can't have a good time. My original precision rifle setup was my $800 Tikka with a $300 Weaver Grand Slam Tactical 3-10x scope. It shot just fine, and I had a lot of fun with it out to 700 yards. These days I'm doing even more demanding shooting, so I'm using more high-dollar equipment.
 
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