Longish Range AR Questions

[HGM22]

I'm thinking about putting together a longer range AR15, maybe out to 300-600 yards. I don't want to build from scratch, but would rather buy a complete upper. I'd like a 20'' 1x7 barrel, fixed front sight and/or rail to mount flip front sight, flat-top upper, and free-float tube/rail. I'd like something along the lines of a "designated marksman rifle", that is to say, it doesn't have to be super accurate, just accurate enough at medium ranges.

I was thinking of mounting a Vortex Strike Eagle 1x6 in a Burris PEPR QD mount. Would a fixed front sight interfere with the scope, or will I be able to co-witness like with a red dot or blur out the front sight?

Don't have the money yet for a dedicated lower, but have heard the Gieselle SSA trigger is a good drop-in precision trigger. For now I'll just put the upper on my Colt 6920 lower (which I assume is fine).

I have some questions:

1. Do stainless barrels last as long as chrome-lined barrels? I've heard a 10,000 round count for shooting out a CL barrel; is stainless similar?

2. Do precision barrels wear out faster? I understand the NM and bench rest guys need the utmost accuracy so replace them frequently, but I'm really just looking to ring steel targets at longer ranges. If I shoot for tight groups it will be done at 100, not 500, yards.

3. I was looking at this from WOA: http://www.whiteoakarmament.com/xcart/product.php?productid=17841&cat=259&page=1

I believe it uses a Wilson barrel which I've also read wears out at 1500 rounds. This was also from a NM shooter who might not be satisfied with a 1.5-2MOA rifle which I would be. Are the Wilson barrels better now? Anything not to like about this upper/barrel/bolt?

4. Will there be reliability issues with precision barrels due to tighter tolerances?

5. What are the differences between Service Rifle/NM and Match rifles? Just the sights and forearms allowed? Or are there real differences between the barrels?

6. How are the BCM SS barrels? I've read they are a little underwhelming. Any other manufacturers of complete uppers I should look into?

 

[W.E.G.]

1. Do stainless barrels last as long as chrome-lined barrels? I've heard a 10,000 round count for shooting out a CL barrel; is stainless similar?

I shoot stainless for my National Match competition.

A Krieger stainless will likely go 10,000 rounds, still shooting master scores if you don't clean it constantly. Barrels are ruined suddenly in the basement. Not on the range.​

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2. Do precision barrels wear out faster? I understand the NM and bench rest guys need the utmost accuracy so replace them frequently, but I'm really just looking to ring steel targets at longer ranges. If I shoot for tight groups it will be done at 100, not 500, yards.

Expensive barrels usually last a little longer.

Krieger barrels will usually go a little longer than Wilson barrels​

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3. I was looking at this from WOA: http://www.whiteoakarmament.com/xcar...cat=259&page=1

I believe it uses a Wilson barrel which I've also read wears out at 1500 rounds. This was also from a NM shooter who might not be satisfied with a 1.5-2MOA rifle which I would be. Are the Wilson barrels better now? Anything not to like about this upper/barrel/bolt?

DO NOT believe the crap you read on the internet about any quality barrel in 5.56 wearing out in 1500 rounds. While I don't doubt an incompetent owner can RUIN a barrel before he puts 1500 rounds through it, you can expect a Wilson to go AT LEAST 3500 rounds before a high-master shooter may start to see a drop-off in X-count.

If somebody is howling about an example of one, remember there are Mercedes that have to be flat-bedded back to the dealership before the new owner can get it home. What does that mean?

I've been shooting White Oak uppers (Krieger and Wilson) in competition for quite a while now. First-rate equipment.

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4. Will there be reliability issues with precision barrels due to tighter tolerances?

Sloppy tolerances cause unreliability.

Not well-controlled tolerances and high-level quality control.​

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5. What are the differences between Service Rifle/NM and Match rifles? Just the sights and forearms allowed? Or are there real differences between the barrels?

If you want to know the difference between Service Rifle and Match Rifle, you need to read the rulebook - which changes every year, and which will change SUBSTANTIALLY (optics, weight limits) in 2016.

A service rifle still looks like a rifle.

Many match rifles look like something from a Buck Rogers comic book.​

 

[farmerboy78]

I am actually putting together a rifle with your requirements, and I received my woa upper at the end of last week... I bought the varmint style upper with the 20" sdm barrel with a 1in8" twist wilson... I have not shot it yet but from what I can tell, it is well built! I'm waiting for my rr lower to come in and deciding on my optic to mount... I chose the sdm barrel due to the fact it is fluted and comes threaded which is a plus, seeing I plan to shoot it suppressed! I have recently shot another man's ar at the range and his trigger was a single stage JARD trigger. They offer it down to 1 1/2lb that feels like a bolt gun trigger... one of their single stage adjustable triggers will find its way into my rifle, at about 160ish dollars...

 

[farmerboy78]

1. Do stainless barrels last as long as chrome-lined barrels? I've heard a 10,000 round count for shooting out a CL barrel; is stainless similar?

I shoot stainless for my National Match competition.

A Krieger stainless will likely go 10,000 rounds, still shooting master scores if you don't clean it constantly. Barrels are ruined suddenly in the basement. Not on the range.​

.
.
.


2. Do precision barrels wear out faster? I understand the NM and bench rest guys need the utmost accuracy so replace them frequently, but I'm really just looking to ring steel targets at longer ranges. If I shoot for tight groups it will be done at 100, not 500, yards.

Expensive barrels usually last a little longer.

Krieger barrels will usually go a little longer than Wilson barrels​

.
.
.

3. I was looking at this from WOA: http://www.whiteoakarmament.com/xcar...cat=259&page=1

I believe it uses a Wilson barrel which I've also read wears out at 1500 rounds. This was also from a NM shooter who might not be satisfied with a 1.5-2MOA rifle which I would be. Are the Wilson barrels better now? Anything not to like about this upper/barrel/bolt?

DO NOT believe the crap you read on the internet about any quality barrel in 5.56 wearing out in 1500 rounds. While I don't doubt an incompetent owner can RUIN a barrel before he puts 1500 rounds through it, you can expect a Wilson to go AT LEAST 3500 rounds before a high-master shooter may start to see a drop-off in X-count.

If somebody is howling about an example of one, remember there are Mercedes that have to be flat-bedded back to the dealership before the new owner can get it home. What does that mean?

I've been shooting White Oak uppers (Krieger and Wilson) in competition for quite a while now. First-rate equipment.

​

.
.
.

4. Will there be reliability issues with precision barrels due to tighter tolerances?

Sloppy tolerances cause unreliability.

Not well-controlled tolerances and high-level quality control.​

.
.
.

5. What are the differences between Service Rifle/NM and Match rifles? Just the sights and forearms allowed? Or are there real differences between the barrels?

If you want to know the difference between Service Rifle and Match Rifle, you need to read the rulebook - which changes every year, and which will change SUBSTANTIALLY (optics, weight limits) in 2016.

A service rifle still looks like a rifle.

Many match rifles look like something from a Buck Rogers comic book.​

W.e.g. what kind of differences can you see between the kreiger and the wilson? As far as accuracy, quality, and etc?

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

I was thinking of mounting a Vortex Strike Eagle 1x6 in a Burris PEPR QD mount. Would a fixed front sight interfere with the scope, or will I be able to co-witness like with a red dot or blur out the front sight?

You won't be able to practically cowitness a magnified optic even at 1x. At higher magnifications, the front sight post will be inside your focal length and it will be just a barely visible grey blur/shadow at the bottom of he scope if you notice it at all.

Short version: if you are going to have a front sight post, there really isn't any point in having a lower than 3x magnification and you could go with a cheaper 3-9x scope with fewer multiples/less cost. If you are going to spring for a 1-6x, you probably want a folding front sight (or no sight) so you can take advantage of the 1x feature.

1. Do stainless barrels last as long as chrome-lined barrels? I've heard a 10,000 round count for shooting out a CL barrel; is stainless similar?

It depends on what your accuracy requirements/capabilities are. SS barrels will easily let you hit silhouette sized targets at 600yds at 10,000 rounds. It is all relative - my stainless barrel has around 6k on it and still has noticeably better accuracy than most of the chrome-lined barrels I've shot had at their best performance. On the other hand, I've come across a few chrome-lined barrels that shot very well.

 

[Tirod]

If you plan a front sight base, then it's really meant for two conditions - iron sight use and drop in handguards. That's not the optimal set up for a longer range AR. Use a lightweight non rail free float with lo profile gas block. It will allow the maximum accuracy the barrel is capable of shooting without the sling pulling the barrel around with inconsistent pressure.

When the optic is mounted be prepared to use one that extends over the free float to get the front ring a place to fasten. Not on the float as no scope maker will warrant damage from the tube flexing around, which is exactly what it's supposed to do. Free floats allow the barrel to float, the tube gets all the stress.

If a BUIS is mounted on the tube forward it's not free floating - it has to remain on the barrel to do that.

Be cautious about upper builders who insist on "bedding" the barrel or using high tech bonding agents for any of the joints, including the muzzle device. If you specify the barrel with target crown then a thread cover would be in order, the use of specialty muzzle devices is a hot topic but the intent is for less than precision competition, such as 3Gun, where hits are scored on torso sized targets.

Prepare to pick up the hobby of handloading, as that $400+ barrel may not be shooting at it's top potential with off the shelf loads.

 

[HGM22]

Thanks for the replies; as you can tell this is new ground for me.

Sounds like I don't want the front sight since I do want a 1x-6x scope. Tirod, you mentioned I want a non-railed FF tube - why is this?

How about something like this: http://www.whiteoakarmament.com/xcart/product.php?productid=17987&cat=261&page=1
Is there a way for a folding front sight to be attached to this?

If a front sight is attached to the float tube, not the barrel, how much of a reduction in accuracy would be seen?

Edit: Would I be able to fit an off-set section of rail underneath the scope and mount a microdot red dot? Might be cheaper/easier than a front sight if I want a backup sighting system?

 

[d2wing]

Do you want a precision rifle or a tactical rifle or a combination?

 

[henschman]

I have something along the lines of what you're talking about. It has a PSA A2 spec chrome lined 1/7 barrel made by FN. It's good for very consistent hits on man-sized targets out to 500 yards with M193. I'm sure it would do 600 too, but I haven't shot it at that distance. I wanted this to be a capable iron sight shooter at distance too, so I went with a folding FSB so the front sight isn't floating independently of the barrel and being pulled to and fro by sling pressure, different rests, etc., yet can be folded down for optics use. The rear sight is a KAC 2-600m that lives in the stock until needed. It will probably be replaced by a Spikes Micro, which is low enough profile to clear the ocular housing of the scope.



Barrel life is most certainly longer on a CL barrel than SS (unless the SS is nitrided), but that shouldnt be your main consideration, seeing how the cost of enough ammo to shoot either barrel out makes the cost of replacement barrels negligible. The main benefits of chrome in my mind are more reliable cycling, reduced chamber fouling, and easier cleaning. I personally wouldn't want a match chamber on a fighting rifle. There is no disputing the fact that a tighter chamber will reach a stoppage-inducing level of fouling faster under sustained use, though they do provide an accuracy and brass life advantage. I guess you need to decide if the role you have in mind calls for the kind of sub-MOA performance a high dollar stainless match barrel delivers, or if you would be OK with your standard mil spec barrel that is good for 2-2.5 MOA with ball and 1-1.5 MOA with match ammo, like me.

For reference, a man-sized target is about 3 MOA wide at 600 yards.

For optics, Chinese glass like the Strike Eagle would be fine for range or competition shooting in favorable lighting with easy to see targets that contrast with the background. For any kind of field use, I would look for something with better glass. The Burris TAC30 I have on mine has real decent Philippine glass, and can be had for under $300.

 

[Dr.Rob]

If I wanted to build a new long range AR I'd start with one of these:

https://www.model1sales.com/index.c...ategory_id=263&CFID=79998326&CFTOKEN=15794063

You can up the cost by fluting the barrel, and having it threaded for a flash suppressor. ER Shaw makes their barrels and they are very good. I have a 16 inch one that I use in competition. Spend an extra ten bucks for the sling swivel stud on the forearm to mount a bipod.

The bolt carrier, if you chose it will be commercial not military. Again that's a part you can purchase cheaper and get military grade.

A long range rifle is not a fast handling carbine, get a fixed stock for stability. That barrel and a low mounted variable scope say 4-16x will get you 'out there' if your needs are target shooting or varminting.