looking for a 380 pistol

[entropy]

CZ-82 is 9x18, the CZ-83 is the .380. I had a CZ-24 that I carried for a while, and although heavy, it was very accurate and pleasant to shoot. Although not direct blowback, the Remington Model 51 (not the R51 abortion) is the most elegantly designed .380 ever made. (And yes, that includes the PPK, you Bond wannabes. )

 

[justin22885]

CZ-82 is 9x18, the CZ-83 is the .380. I had a CZ-24 that I carried for a while, and although heavy, it was very accurate and pleasant to shoot. Although not direct blowback, the Remington Model 51 (not the R51 abortion) is the most elegantly designed .380 ever made. (And yes, that includes the PPK, you Bond wannabes. )

cz-24 the rifle, or the submachine gun?

 

[bannockburn]

entropy

I think the Browning Model 1910 would still give the Remington Model 51 a run for the money in the most elegantly designed .380 ever made category.

 

[golden]

Problem with both

Guys,

The problem with both the BROWNING 1910 and REMINGTON 51 is that they are single action pistols and for many of us, that makes them a range gun, not a carry gun.

The only way I would carry either of these pistols or the otherwise excellent COLT 1903/1908 is in condition 3 with a loaded magazine and empty chamber. A poor choice, but the one I would feel safest with.

The WALTHER PPK had all the right ideas, but suffered from confusing and sometimes indifferent manufacturing. Otherwise, it is a very good weapon, even if it is a notch below the SIG 232 which has a better trigger (from the factory), better sights, far better grip and MUCH, MUCH better decocker.

The biggest negative for the SIG 232 is the bulk, which of course is one of the reasons it is more comfortable to shoot than the PPK (larger and more ergonomically shaped grips) and much better to shoot than the earlier WALTHER PP or the later PPK/S (which have a poor grip design, in my expience).





Jim

 

[9 fingers]

I like my CZ83 a great deal, and my new Sig P230 stainless, super high quality guns. Beretta 84 is one of the best but don't have one yet. Actually have plans for an 85, the single stack version. If a carry gun I would probably stay away from the double stacks but you may not care about the extra bulk. I have a Makarov in .380 and it is thin, reliable and accurate so also a contender. I have 3 of the Mauser HSc pistols in .380, because I think they are sexy and good guns. Going to sell my stainless one though as I really don't need 3. Beretta 70 is very good buy mags are hard to come by. Some pics of a few.
9 fingers

 

[bannockburn]

golden

I agree. I never considered carrying my Browning Model 1910 due to concerns about safely carrying it with a round in the chamber. My comments on it to entropy were in regard to the elegant lines and stylish design both the Remington Model 51 and the Browning Model 1910 possessed.

Never did find a Walther PP or PPKs with a decent trigger, even in single action mode and never could get warmed up to the slide mounted safety either. And likewise we're in agreement that while the SIG P230/232 are excellent guns in most respects they are a bit large for the .380 cartridge. Sort of like the Beretta Model 84/85 and the Mauser HSc. For me the Colt Government .380, Colt Mustang, and the SIG P238 are just the right size and are just the ticket as far as their single action design goes.

 

[golden]

Agree to disagree

BURN,

I know many people are happy with the cocked and locked style of carry, but I am not and no longer want to bother with it.
Ever since my first GLOCK, I have been convinced that the simplest way to go is the best.
I used to carry on duty a GLOCK, then a SIG 226, then a Double Action Only BERETTA 96D and then an H&K P2000 that is also DOA.
I like to keep the same method of operation, but that has limits. Since I shoot a BERETTA DOA and SIG 225 and 232 most often when not shooting a revolver, the PPK used to be my choice and now the GLOCK 42 work's best for me in this size category.

I do not compete, so the over and over experience of flipping off a safety is now alien to me. That actually makes it dangerous in my opinion, for me at least.

On the WALTHER trigger. I have a PPK and had a PP. Both had usable triggers. Not as smooth as the SIG or BERETTA, but it did not hurt my qualification scores.
The INTERARMS PPK/S that I last checked out was bad. Worse than either of my WALTHERS by a noticeable amount.
Now the S&W made PPK/S was much smoother, but even used, it was $675.00That was more than I paid for my second SIG 232 which did not have the night sights of the first one. So it comes down to by whom and when it was made.

My COLT .380ACP Government model was a good shooter and accurate, but it was a "cocked and locked" gun with no advantages to me over the SIG 232. It was just as accurate as the BERETTA and SIG, but I no longer want to use a single action gun except as a range gun.

Jim

 

[entropy]

cz-24 the rifle, or the submachine gun?

The .380 pistol, of course. It was the forerunner of the Cz27, though both continued to be produced into WWII.


Bannockburn;

<Black Knight voice> Alright, we'll call it a draw.....</Black Knight voice>

OK, I'll concede that with the provisio you don't include the 1910/22....

The 1910 had clean lines, and came out 8 years before the 51.

 

[Ignition Override]

9 fingers: Superb collection you have! As for the Mauser Hsc, mine is a WW2 version (.32 acp).

Because yours is a post-war French/German Hsc in .380 Auto, and Not an Italian contract gun, have you found it pretty reliable?

Many of the WW2 Hsc guns seem to be a bit delicate, as with mine, or with reliable mags hard to find. Maybe some of the springs are just a bit weak by now.
The Sauer 38H and Hsc have possibly the Best ergos of any of my group (Maks, P-83s, Sig 232), other than the CZ-82.

As for the CZ-83 being less popular than the 82, at least the 83 in .380 Auto is not nearly as vulnerable to possible future bans on Russian 9x18 ammo (domestic price spikes), a high tariff, via abrupt change in foreign policy towards Russia.
Heaps of Israeli turn-ins seem to have been imported. Despite real cosmetic wear, how reliable do owners find these?

 

[justin22885]

only "1910" pistol i want is the bergmann bayard.. but yeah, ive made my decision on the modified (converted to 9x18 ultra) CZ-83.. not exactly a 380, but close enough.. no ones ever given their opinion yet of the idea.. buy a CZ-83, ream out the barrel to 9x18 ultra specs (basically 9mm brass shortened by 1mm and loaded with .355" bullets to pressures slightly above the 9x18 makarov) and put in a spring thats a bit heavier than the CZ-82

quickload says that within the pressure limits and capacity of 9x18 ultra i can push a 90 grain XTP (or GDHP) bullet at velocities 50% faster than .380, that should actually give both the penetration and the expansion necessary to be a suitable self defense cartridge

 

[golden]

No way on 50%

Justin,

I do not see how you could come up with a 50% by using 9x18 brass. Yes, you can get a faster round, but that would be about 1300 fps or more. Not likely.

Buffalo Bore is claiming 1200 fps with a 90 grain bullet in a +P loading. This round is not SAAMI rated, which does not have a +P rating for the .380ACP as far as I know.

Personally, I would prefer to see the 9x18 loaded with a heavier bullet like the REMINGTON Golden Sabre 102 grain jhp. The standard load is too slow to perform properly, but at 1100, it might be the perfect round for a SIG 232 or BERETTA 84/85.

Jim

 

[guyfromohio]

I think people find themselves too caught up in studying the ballistics. I would not feel under-gunned with a 100% reliable, incredibly accurate, shoot-able .380 loaded with tested rounds.

 

[benzy2]

I think the idea of converting a CZ 83 to a different clambering is rather silly for a defensive weapon. If you are comfortable with what a .380 can do, just load it with your favorite off the shelf .380 ammo. If not, buy a pistol better designed to handle hotter rounds with more power. I get wanting a specific design or look for a fun gun. When it comes to a defensive tool, buy the best one available. I don't get the point of pushing a .380 or 9x18 blowback as hard as possible in an effort to get close to 9x19 performance. Just buy something chambered in 9x19. I'd feel more comfortable that the pistol would last, it would be reliable, and it would be comfortable to shoot with a pistol designed to shoot a hotter round from the start.

Now, it's not my money, just my opinion. If you end up converting it, I'd love to hear the process of making it reliable and how the loads perform. I won't be worse or better off if you decide to try a conversion or if you stick with it stock or if you go with a firearm that started life as a 9x19. If it's what you want to do, go for it and enjoy the experience. Anything interesting to read on here is time I enjoy so as I said, I'd love to see and hear how it goes. Also, if you live where the government limits the number of firearms you can own or if they restrict certain chamberings like 9x19, then my opinion changes a bit too. There are circumstances where this would be my route I'd take, but they are limited. I'd rather own a CZ83 for what it is and then buy a smaller double stack 9mm to use as a defensive weapon. There are so many well designed and made pistols on the market today at an affordable price that I can't see going the rechambering route. It just sounds more expensive (rechambering, finding dies, cutting all the brass, being forced to reload at all times) compared to the ease of say a Glock 19 that you grab your favorite ammo off the shelf at any store that sells ammo.

 

[JR47]

The mere fact that someone no longer wants to carry a single-action pistol is fine, for them. In the larger picture, one opinion is just that, one.

We see a lot of groups still equipped with 1911 pistols, and police equipped with striker-fired guns. Guess which group has the most NDs?

The old "it's like a double-action revolver" excuse died years ago, when striker-fired guns started to become available with ever lighter triggers. Those triggers also became available with ever shorter travel, as well.

Current double-action triggers on revolvers run in the 9-14 pound ranger, and have longer travel. Even the Ruger, with it's redesigned trigger, still has more travel. Essentially, today's striker-fired guns are often more like single-action guns WITHOUT a mechanical safety. The number of NDs suffered by departments reveals this, and has for decades.

The OP has made his choice, based upon his wants. Personally, I like my old Colt Government Model .380. It has been reliable and accurate for several decades. In high-capacity guns, I like the Beretta Model 84, the Taurus PT57, and , for those who just HAVE to have truly high capacity, the Taurus PT58SS-HC Plus, with it's 20 round mags.

We also have a Bersa Deluxe, that uses nine round mags. It's about 10 years old, has thousands of rounds through it, and has held up far better than a number of competing (higher priced) guns over the years. A single example that failed is just that, a single example that failed. I had a Sig P229 that cracked it's slide at the 75 round mark. However, I'm not going to condemn the entire Sig Line because that happened.

 

[justin22885]

Justin,

I do not see how you could come up with a 50% by using 9x18 brass. Yes, you can get a faster round, but that would be about 1300 fps or more. Not likely.

Buffalo Bore is claiming 1200 fps with a 90 grain bullet in a +P loading. This round is not SAAMI rated, which does not have a +P rating for the .380ACP as far as I know.

Personally, I would prefer to see the 9x18 loaded with a heavier bullet like the REMINGTON Golden Sabre 102 grain jhp. The standard load is too slow to perform properly, but at 1100, it might be the perfect round for a SIG 232 or BERETTA 84/85.

Jim

the average .380 load i see produces about 200ft/lbs of muzzle energy, ive seen standard pressure 9x18 ultra/police and even makarov loads producing around 300ft/lbs... that is considered a 50% improvement..

im talking standard pressures between the two, not comparing buffalos bore somewhat questionable +P 380 loads which is in my opinion a dumb product to manufacture for a market predominately controlled with blowbacks that are NOT tuned for the increase in bolt thrust or higher slide velocity

i do think a 100 grain would be perfect for a 9x18 ultra/police, 115 could probably even work with the higher velocity if you got some regular 9mm bullets designed for really short barrels or reduced velocity but that increased velocity with those golden sabers would be perfect for a SD cartridge

 

[golden]

I don't see it

Justin,

The 9x18 will get you to about 260 foot pounds of energy, not 300. To get that high you need a longer case or higher pressure which requires a locked breech of some kind.

The most powerful 9m.m. that was designed for blowback pistols was the 9m.m. Browning Long. It would just get you there, but requires a bigger, heavier gun. Also, the round is a 9x20 mm size case, so it longer than 9x18 or 9m.m. P.
John BROWNING designed it around a scaled up version of his COLT 1903 .32ACP pistol. You are talking about a 2 pound gun with a 5 inch barrel.


JR47

I based my opinions on my wants and also my experience. I have been there when trained officers mishandle guns and they go off. Some of those ND's are the unavoidable ones that can happen whenever someone becomes too comfortable with firearms and does not treat them with the attention they require. Several were by agency firearms instructors!

The single action danger is too fold. First, you forget to put the safety on, then holster a hot weapon. You can also do this with a double/single action as well.
Second, you blow a draw and cannot fire your weapon because the safety is still on. This is also a problem with the non-decocker double/single action pistols where you drop the hammer by putting on the safety and then forget to switch back to the FIRE mode. I did this with a carry gun twice, but got lucky and caught it when doing my holstering check. This is why I prefer decockers or double action only.


My own experience in handling firearms is that simpler is better and thaat many shooters are much safer if the weapons they carry present the least challenges to operate when they are forced to use them for self defense.

On that note, just a few weeks ago, a new boss ordered gun checks on every officer going on duty at another office of my agency. Three officers turned out to be UNLOADED either with an empty chamber or no spare ammo (saves weight)! So my advice is keep it simple and NEVER GET COMPLACENT!


Jim

 

[justin22885]

it actually depends on the powder you use and matching it to the size of the barrel.. its not impossible to get it that high.. the pressure limits on 9x18 ultra is a lot higher than 380.. up to 26,000 PSI

 

[9 fingers]

Why not just buy a 9mm gun and be done with it?
9 fingers

 

[9 fingers]

Thanks Ignition Override. My first HSc suffered failures to feed in every mag I shot. I contacted the moderator, Warbird, on the Mauser Forum and he educated me on what needed to be done. Took it apart and cleaned it more than I normally do, and replaced the recoil spring with one from Wolf, and while I was at it did the same for the mag spring. They were cheap and the gun has worked perfectly ever since. I bought 2 more, one for my wife and one Nickel plated because I wanted it, and they were flawless in operation from day one. I am told the recoil springs on the guns were a bit underpowered when they were new and only got worse in the past 40 to 60 years, as is expected. Try some new springs. I will try to get some pics of my Makarov .380 and Sig 230 this weekend.
9 fingers

 

[MICHAEL T]

I say Bersa 1st or course and then a Interarms American Made PPK/s . Sorry no love for the S&W mutant PPK/s . older SIG good also

The Bersa Plus is great pistol when we can get some. and extra mags are slow coming.In
Bersa has 7 8 and 9 round mags depending on witch model you get. Their is a 10 round but It sticks out to far I think .

come talk with real owners http://bersachat.com
My home on the NET.

 

[Tallball]

For me it's not an opinion, it's a choice.

I choose to not carry SA autos, like my 1911 or my Government 380, because I don't feel comfortable doing so. I don't have a low opinion of either one, or of anyone else's decision to carry them.

 

[25-5]

Well said TB. I am most comfortable and confident carrying a 1911 condition one. However, no foul either way.
Now that I'm looking for a .380, I am sorry to have passed up the Colt Gov. .380 back in the 90's.

 

[justin22885]

well.. ive already made my decision.. the .380 with ball ammo gets the penetration, but no expansion.. with HPs it gets expansion, but not enough penetration.. there are some SD loads that seem to.. just barely match the requirements of both in a controlled setting.. but im not sure it does so enough so to feel confident with it in a small, compact little pocket or backup type pistol (i currently have a bersa thunder 45 UC pro for primary conceal carry but my preference is to open carry)

the 9x18 makarov has a decent enough energy boost over 380, but the bullets available for its off bullet diameter is really limiting.. thats why to get 9x18 mak power, but the better SD bullet choices available for the 380 i will go through with a CZ-83 that will be reamed out to 9x18 ultra chamber specs using a 9mm chamber reamed short, with the heaviest makarov springs working my way down... OR, i will get a bulgarian made makarov and rebarrel (i believe theyre pressed and pinned into the receiver?)

the reason i want a blowback is because theyre simpler, and although some can be ammo-picky, when fine tuned with the right springs to the cartridge youre going to be firing through it, they are incredibly reliable.. fewer moving parts, less to replace and repair.. and say youre in a SD scenario and theres a struggle, you wont short-stroke the pistol if you dont have the tightest grip on it like you can do with recoil operated pistols

i hope this better explains my position of wanting a simple blowback with a bit more energy behind it

 

[Ibmikey]

Justin, You have created for yourself a real project of untried parts and ammunition in order to provide yourself with a defensive hangun that will require a large amount of ammo to insure it's reliability. There are so may proven designs being carried today of proven reliability and "blowback because it is simple" doesn't really cut it because most locked breech pistols are just as "simple" and provide a better platform for the cartridge. I wish you luck on your project....put a lot of ammo on the shelf and fully test the end product before trusting your life to it.

 

[C0untZer0]

You sound like you're an inventor at heart. There have been a few threads at THR on what would be the ideal cartridge between 380 ACP and 9mm and your project seems like another run at that.

Once you figure out what spring is needed to make your custom gun work, you're also going to need to figure out the life of the spring, and it may be shorter than you think. My Rohrbaugh R9 is more dependent on the recoil spring for proper functioning than my Glock 17L, and your custom 9x18 Ultra is going to be more dependent on the recoil spring for proper functioning than a stock CZ-83.

What bullets are you planning on using? That's another completely untested aspect of your project, depending on the bullet, increased velocity can result in less penetration with only slightly more expansion.

Maybe I'm a jello-junkie but I personally don't feel comfortable carrying a JHP for self-defense unless I have some test results of how the bullet performs through 4 layers of denim and out of a barrel length similar to my SD pistol.