Looks like 41P is a coming in '16 .....

[Swing]

It is now in the Federal Register here.

ATF issues regulations to enforce the Federal laws relating to the manufacture and commerce of firearms and explosives. ATF's mission and regulations are designed to, among other objectives, curb illegal traffic in, and criminal use of, firearms and explosives, and to assist State, local, and other Federal law enforcement agencies in reducing crime and violence. The Department is planning to finalize a proposed rule to amend ATF's regulations regarding the making or transferring of a firearm under the National Firearms Act. As proposed, this rule would (1) add a definition for the term “responsible person”; (2) require each responsible person of a corporation, trust or legal entity to complete a specified form, and to submit photographs and fingerprints; and (3) modify the requirements regarding the certificate of the chief law enforcement officer.

 

[yugorpk]

I wonder if they realize how many guns and NFA items Obama has sold during his presidency.

In any case we've been expecting this for a while. Ive bought a good 10 stamps in the last year alone.

 

[Ranger Roberts]

Wasn't it supposed to show up in December '15? I know that it has been pushed back at least 2 other times.

 

[yugorpk]

It has been pushed back a few times

"The Department is planning to finalize a proposed rule "

That's about as wishy washy of a commitment as you get.

"(3) modify the requirements regarding the certificate of the chief law enforcement officer."

That could mean a number of things. Might be in our favor. Might not be.

 

[Swing]

Wasn't it supposed to show up in December '15? I know that it has been pushed back at least 2 other times.

Yes. The current Final Action date on the official page is listed as "01/00/2015". I'm guessing they mean "01/00/2016" as a date in the past makes no sense.

"(3) modify the requirements regarding the certificate of the chief law enforcement officer."

That could mean a number of things. Might be in our favor. Might not be.

Maybe, but the language in the proposal mentions requiring a CLEO certification. I haven't seen anything to the contrary, but if someone has, it would be valuable to the thread.

The Department of Justice proposes amending Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (ATF) regulations that concern the making or transferring of a firearm under the National Firearms Act (NFA). The proposed changes include: Defining the term ‘‘responsible person,’’ as used in reference to a trust, partnership, association, company, or corporation; requiring ‘‘responsible persons’’ of such legal entities to submit, inter alia, photographs and fingerprints, as well as a law enforcement certificate, when the legal entity files an application to make an NFA firearm or is listed as the transferee on an application to transfer an NFA firearm; modifying the information required in a law enforcement certificate, so that the certificate no longer requires a statement from the certifying official that he or she has no information indicating that the maker or transferee of the NFA firearm will use the firearm for other than lawful purposes; and adding a new section to ATF’s regulations to address the possession and transfer of firearms registered to a decedent.

 

[Edster12]

Guess I had better get the paperwork done for an SBR

 

[Hyrulejedi86]

What about this post from SilencerShop a few days ago:
http://blog.silencershop.com/41p-asa/

Quote:
"After working closely with federal & state lawmakers and regulatory agencies (including the ATF & NFA Branch) – it’s obvious that nobody wants 41P to be implemented (other than the current administration).

If it did go into effect, it would create problems at every level – for both government & industry.

We don’t have a crystal ball any more than anybody else, but everything we hear from the ATF, NFA Branch, and lawmakers indicates that it will continue to be put on hold indefinitely."

 

[yugorpk]

Id be surprised if it went into effect. The NFA is the model for gun control that has proven itself for decades to actually work without much if any negatives other than the cost and wait. Keeps the riff raff out.. Screwing around with it because someone at the top doesnt understand whats going on makes no sense and sounds like what will be a short lived exercise in stupidity.

 

[barnbwt]

"it’s obvious that nobody wants 41P to be implemented"

"The NFA is the model for gun control that has proven itself for decades to actually work without much if any negatives other than the cost and wait. Keeps the riff raff out."
*cough* WHAT!? Tell me your being facetious, or speaking from the perspective of the government, or something. The NFA has a ton of negatives, including a punitive tax, indefensible and outrageous processing periods (over a year for a determination letter if you go to sell a new product), arbitrary and capricious enforcement, contradictory and ambiguous regulations, and most of all the very existence of the ATF (well the "F" part, anyway).

There also isn't any 'riff raff' being kept out; they simply cut down their barrels/stocks or install autosears without asking permission.

What has proven itself for at least centuries now, is the basic trust law that 41p seeks to violate. That'll be the short-lived exercise in stupidity, when a judge has to weigh the Clinton & Gates Foundations of the world against some obscure quasi-gun-control 'win.' Gee, I wonder who'll come out on top?

TCB

 

[Swing]

@ Hyrulejedi86. Interesting details. Thank you for posting the link. I hope they are right.

 

[Ryanxia]

Thanks Hyrulejedi86! Good read.

 

[Elkins45]

Thanks Hyrulejedi86! Good read.

I'm afraid it might be wishful thinking...

 

[plodder]

So, if this proposed rule change does get implemented, and it does require fingerprints for every party in a corporation or trust, what is the prevailing opinion about "grandfathering" currently held NFA items in currently formed Trusts?

Will every trustee in currently formed trusts be required to be fingerprinted, CLEO'd or whatever? Will only new items acquired by trusts fall under the new rules?

(These are mostly rhetorical questions, because I realize that very few of us on this Forum are lawyers, and even the best lawyers couldn't hazard a guess about what the burauecrats will do.)

 

[Hyrulejedi86]

I read somewhere very recently that, I think it was the ASA, meet with people from the ATF and were told all forms previously approved and submitted for approval prior to the implementation date would be grandfathered.

Any new forms submitted once the rule is in effect would require every trust member to submit the Cleo cert, photo and fingerprints.

This should go without saying but parts of that could change if they change the way the rule reads from what we previously saw.
I think though it's safe to assume no matter what happens everyone will be grandfathered that has an approved form or a form submitted before it's implementation.

 

[Swing]

Will only new items acquired by trusts fall under the new rules?

Everything I've read on the topic indicates that would be the case. That is an items already approved would not be impacted. Most sources indicate that any form currently "pending" also would be working under the old rules. New submission, however, would require all the new items (CLEO certification, prints, et al.).

None of that is for sure, of course. No one knows what the final form the rule will be.

 

[yugorpk]

All the more reason to give to the federal treasury until it hurts. King Obama has taken $2000 from me in the last year in tax stamps. Greatest gun salesman that has ever lived.

 

[MAKster]

What is the justification for trusts and LLCs being held to a lower level of scrutiny than individuals under current law? The actual owner of entities like trusts and LLC can be very opaque so it would seem to make more sense that the law should be reversed and these entities be held to higher scrutiny than individual ownership where the actual owner is obvious. How does this violate centuries of basic trust law as has been suggested?

 

[Prince Yamato]

Take this for what it's worth:

I was in conversation at a local NFA dealer with a couple sheriff's deputies. Apparently, a bunch of the Texas sheriffs were talking and they said there is near unanimous DISAPPROVAL of this whole idea. I guess phone lines have been ringing and some of the more well-heeled NFA folks are complaining about having to get their fingerprints done like criminals. There's also the issue of the sheer volume of people that would need to be fingerprinted. It would be a waste of resources.

Anyway, that's what I heard from the deputies. I know, I know, I'm just a guy on the internet...

 

[DivideByZero]

I have held off, for now, on all Form 3 transfers until the dust settles. My fear is that the ATF will start enforcing 41p when I have transfers still pending on a Form 3 and will require the new procedure to be followed on the Form 4 portion of the transfer. No thanks.

 

[dogtown tom]

Waiting makes absolutely no sense

DivideByZero I have held off, for now, on all Form 3 transfers until the dust settles. My fear is that the ATF will start enforcing 41p when I have transfers still pending on a Form 3 and will require the new procedure to be followed on the Form 4 portion of the transfer. No thanks.

And what will you do on future NFA transactions? Please explain what good waiting will do? Implementation of 41p (if it ever happens) will not take effect immediately. But waiting in fear of what may happen is the silliest thing I've read yet.


Form 3's are taking as little as three weeks.....yes THREE WEEKS!

You may regret waiting.

 

[yugorpk]

Quote:
DivideByZero "I have held off, for now, on all Form 3 transfers until the dust settles. My fear is that the ATF will start enforcing 41p when I have transfers still pending on a Form 3 and will require the new procedure to be followed on the Form 4 portion of the transfer. No thanks."

If you are waiting on form 3 transfers until the dust settles you may want to alert your customers to that fact so they can find another dealer immediately .