Loose primer pockets

[eflatminor]

When I reload for handguns, I toss any brass that has a loose primer pocket because I don't want to have it fall out during an IPSC match, make a mess and maybe catch fire.

But what about rifle brass? While testing loads in my 30-06, I pushed the velocity a bit too much and began to see the telltale signs: sticky bolt and a loose primer pocket. My question is with this brass, is there any downside to loading it again, at least for range work? The primer pocket isn't so loose that I fear it will fall out, so I'm wondering why not.

Thanks!

 

[birdbustr]

I throw the loose primer pockets away for pistol or rifle rounds. Of course, nowadays I don't find very many of these loose primer pockets because those "hot loads" were done when I was still working up my loads. I found out where my limits were and now its all good. I just chalk it up as a small loss due to finding my rifles' limitations. So if you haven't backed those hot loads down a half grain or maybe even a grain, you will probably start popping out primers as you fire the loads with loose primers. This can cause a jam in a bolt gun requiring you to remove the bolt, and if it's a Remington it can crack the bolt face around the extractor and you'll have to get someone that can put in a Sako extractor (I know because it happened to me $140).

 

[rg1]

Was just talking to a reloading friend about loose primer pockets. With the cost of some special caliber brass, and with no damage to the case such as stretching or splits, it makes sense to try to save the case. I noticed in the new MidwayUSA Master catalog that Hart makes a case saver swage tool. It tightens loose primer pockets. Kind of expensive at $45 each for both small and large primers but it would pay for itself for some of the costly cases. On page 309 in the catalog.
You have to be your own judge as to how loose the pockets are. If they were on the edge of being loose then I'd use them for plinking loads and mark them so that they were identifiable as having minimal primer pockets and be careful to not get them mixed with your premium cases.

 

[rcmodel]

I would not use them at all, for anything.

If a loose primer does let go, you will destroy your rifle, and possibly yourself.
The reason a pocket becomes loose, is because the case-head has already exceeded the yield strength limits of the brass itself.

It simply is not worth the risk to save a few cents.


rcmodel

 

[moosehunt]

I would certainly like to hear comments from someone (or more) users of the Hart primer pocket swager that Mr. rg1 spoke of. I have brass that costs $1.50 each, and that's before I go through a lot of work/time to form them. If this swage works, it wouldn't take me long to pay for it. That above "if" is the question.

 

[kelbro]

Read the post above yours again, slowly, maybe a couple of times. Primer pockets loosening are a sign of impending failure. $1.50/case isn't really that much compared to fingers, actions, eyes, etc...

 

[moosehunt]

I very well understand what Mr. rcmodel said. Of course a loose primer means that the case expanded beyond beyond it's yield strength. That does not mean the metal itself is damaged, just that it streched beyond it's return to state. If the swager works to return the primer pocket to usable size, it won't hurt to use the brass, because the metal is not fractured or damaged(oh, I know it could be, but that would be obvious). My question for a user is, does it work. Hart isn't in the habit of making useless or dangerous tools.

 

[Idano]

loose primer means that the case expanded beyond beyond it's yield strength

Yes this is one possible cause for loose primer pockets but it is not the definitive cause. I have encountered loose primer pockets for two other reason; poorly swagged or simply worn out. I have received military brass that looked like a blind man with a metal punch swagged them and I would only get one or two reloads before the pocket was loose. I have some good LC brass for my 223 and some of it has seen 15+ reloads (I contribute the longevity to the RCBS X-die and not using a crimp) an most if it is still going strong but eventually over time the pocket just wears out.

 

[moosehunt]

Very true, Mr. Idano, but the brass I'm talking about trying to save is only once fired. It is a wildcat, hence no load data, and I know I was a bit hot. At any rate, I'd still like to hear some user input on this Hart swager.

 

[Kerf]

30-06 brass; throw it away

eflatminor
Primer pockets are loose for several reasons:
A. Manufacturing tolerances – the brass is virgin and therefore good, but some brands of primers may feel loose. Try switching brands of primers, since some primer manufacturers are noted for over-sized (i.e. tight) primers and some are considered thin or loose. W-W primers, for example, I’ve always considered thin. IMHO.
B. Repeated use – after firing a case and reloading it X number of times, the primer pocket has been stretched a tiny amount with each firing and has become loose.
C. Excessive load – the entire case head, not just the primer pocket has been stretched, or compromised.

There’s the same discussion over on benchrest.com of the subject. They don’t seem to think much of the hart tool, but others have some interesting information on various tools and methods. And, as one person pointed out, you can only resize that case head so many times before it fatigues or work hardens. Good point!!!

(http://www.benchrest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47188)

And, realize what you’re dealing with here, it’s not so much the odds of a loose primer failing as, what’s at stake if it does. 70,000 psi of hot gas in your face will cause you to pause a bit. And, would you allow your wife, children or good friend to fire the brass in that condition? I think not.

30-06 brass is cheap. You can buy a lot of replacement brass for the $45.00 bucks that the tool cost. If it’s really loose from excessive pressure or fatigue, throw it away.

Kerf

 

[USSR]

If you want to get another couple loadings out of your brass, you might try the Russian (Wolf) primers. They are a "hair" larger in diameter.

Don

 

[kelbro]

I would suggest cross-sectioning a piece of brass and look at the web around the primer pocket. A swage (like the Hart) is going to insert a gauge into the primer pocket and then swage straight down onto the primer pocket. This seems like it can only tighten the outer edge of the primer pocket against the gauge. It can't 'surround' the primer pocket due to the webbing. No experience with the Hart but that's what an RCBS swager will do if you set it up a certain way.

I have considered buying one because I have several hundred pieces of brass with 'not too tight' primer pockets that I would like to be able to use. It sounds like there are two things holding me back... 1. The idea that this tool cannot fully reform a primer pocket. 2. Whatever weakness in this brass that allowed the pocket to grow in the first place (soft brass?) may manifest itself in a more critical area.

If you do buy one, I would be interested to hear how it works.

I have just resigned myself to the fact that speed costs money. If you shoot hot loads, you are not going to get long life out of your brass.

 

[Roadkill]

I brought my Garand to the range last week. Let several folks run a clip through it. I am a dedicated reloader and will spend twice the time I spend shooting looking for brass. I tossed about 2/3 of the 30-06 brass because of primers swelling. My reloads, IMR4895, 150g fmj. I had loaded the brass at least twice. It was simply time for it to go. Might could have kept it for target loads in bolt actions but its not worth the risk. When in doubt, toss it out. It went into my recycle bucket.

 

[Jim Watson]

A common caliber like .30-06, I would scrap brass with loose primer pockets. I would be tempted in Moosehunt's situation with wildcat brass expensive to buy and tedious to form. Which is why I don't load wildcats any more.

At the risk of, in Jeff Cooper's words, contributing to the delinquency of handloaders, the first shooting use of the great new product Loctite that I ever heard of was gluing primers into expanded brass. This in the early 1960s. I was just a teenager, years from my first reload, but it still sounded goofy.

 

[Tony Gable]

Loose primer pockets? Smash the case so it can't be reloaded and toss it in the big round recepticle next to your reloading bench. It's not worth the risk no matter what the round is.

Tony

 

[BillMcCall]

I blew the head off a rifle case a long time ago, made me a believer. Case prep is an art and you do have to throw away unusable parts. RELOADING AIN'T FREE

 

[moosehunt]

Let's get into this a little deeper, boys. First off, how does the primer, loose or tight, relate at all with blowing the head off a case? I suggest none at all.

Let's ponder this a bit. Does the fact that the primer stays in the pocket really mean anything beyond the obvious inconvenience of it falling out? Think about the preasure when the cartridge is fired--we're talking upwards of 60,000 psi in some cases. Is that small degree of snugness really going to hold the primer in the case? Think how easily it punches out when reloadong--and how easily back in. If one thinks about it, where is a loose primer (as long as it's enough to keep it from just falling out) going to go? If your headspace is anywhere near correct, the base of the case is up flush against the bolt face. So is the primer, except for the firing pin hole. The only place the loose primer could go is in the firing pin hole. Highly unlikely, as it would have to undergo some major swaging. If there was enough preasure there to accomplish that, it wouldn't matter if the primer was part of the case!

I've been pondering this whole thing for a few days, and I'm about convinced that a loose primer pocket doesn't mean diddly squat, provided it isn't so loose it just falls out and is gone. Course, it wouldn't be dangerous then, either, just worthless.

 

[kelbro]

Let one drop down into the works of your trigger group and you will understand.

 

[Walkalong]

Ain't that the truth.

Brass is to cheap, relatively, to shoot iffy brass or brass with loose primer pockets, which shows it has been stressed beyond its design limits.

 

[Doug b]

I once used a primer crimp removal tool that was over sized on LC brass loaded for an HK 91. I blew several primers before I realized what was going on.No gas in the face,not even any crude blown into the magazines.The ammo shot fine and the rifle functioned fine even with 2 primers smashed between the bolt and bolt carrier.But I still recycle any brass with loose pockets.

 

[moosehunt]

In my thoughts above, I should mention that I'm referring only to bolt action guns, as that's about all I have. In a semi-auto, where the bolt is on the move before all preasure has subsided, I see a potential problem. How could a primer get in your trigger mechanism unless it was so loose it wouldn't even stay in on it's own? I'm not referring to quite that loose. It's got to at least stay in the case, obviously. Again I ask, where can the "loose" primer possibly go? Bolt actions only.

 

[rcmodel]

Think about the preasure when the cartridge is fired--we're talking upwards of 60,000 psi in some cases. Is that small degree of snugness really going to hold the primer in the case?

No, but think of it like that O-Ring seal on the Space Shuttle.

If all is well with the primer pocket, the primer cup expands against the case to contain that 60,000 PSI inside the chamber.

But, if it is so loose it can fall out when the bolt is opened, that means your primer seal against the case is marginal at best.

Just let that 60,000 PSI White-Hot gas in the chamber find an escape route through the loose primer pocket and into the rifle action, and you will be taking a trip to the emergency room, if you are lucky!


rcmodel

 

[Idano]

moosehunt,

I concur with you, there is a lot of what if and paranoia floating around; it must be close to a full moon. I don't like to keep brass with loose primer pockets, not because I am afraid of it blowing up in my face or the primer falling into my trigger group but because if the primer does fall out before I fire it the ball powder will get everywhere. I once had a web blow out on a 9mm where it had no support, which that was far bigger release of gas then what leakage is possible with a loose primer up against a bolt. All it did was blow a little heat past the trigger and not fully eject the round.

Take it for what it's worth; we all have our opinions but I think it's more of a reliability issue and inconvenience then a safety issue. Personally I think you have a higher risk of having an incident caused by a powder dispense then you do from a loose primer pocket.

 

[kelbro]

I just don't get it. A loose primer pocket is an indicator of a 'not ideal' reloading component. Why would anybody consider taking a chance with a 'penny part'?

Please consider the potential audience. Lots of folks read these posts and many of them are just getting started handloading. Dismissing universally accepted handloading safety guidelines is probably not the path that they should start out on.

 

[Idano]

I just don't get it. A loose primer pocket is an indicator of a 'not ideal' reloading component. Why would anybody consider taking a chance with a 'penny part'?

I absolutely 100% agree, you should not intentionally reload with any questionable components ! However, with the increasing popularity of the progressive presses it is unrealistic to believe that every round is going to be 100% perfect. Progressive presses just do not have a good tactile feel when depriming or seating the primer like the single stage presses do. I try to do a good job inspecting my brass, in fact I am one of the few on this board that believes that primer pockets need to be cleaned before reloaded and still I know I have reloaded occasional rounds with loose primer pockets because when I went to de-prime then there was no resistance or the primer was already missing.

IMO power dispense and bullet depth are the two biggest factors in reloading accidents. Loose primer pockets are like split necks they need to be culled out and disposed of, I don't see them as a hazard just and example of poor reloading QC. By the way I don't load any hot loads or critical hunting loads on my progressive, they are only done on my single stage and every charge is weighed!