M-1 carbine…. Did I miss the boat?

[Terry G]

One thing is very common in used and Military surplus guns. It starts out "I coulda bought one of those for (name a low price here)." This begs the question why didn't you? Just an example, but at a recent gun show I heard an irate potential buyer arguing with the seller of a mint Yugoslavian SKS 59/66. The possible buyer was ranting how those rifles used to go for $120.00 and now the seller want's $650.00? OK, that's true. I also paid $260.00 for a brand new Colt Series 70 back in 1970, so what does that prove? The Golden Age of C&R Military Surplus is gone. Now if you want a M-1 Garand, M-1 Carbine, or any other C&R your going to pay the going rate.

 

[AlexanderA]

To answer the OPs question, yes, the boat was missed. Cheap guns, ammo and magazines are a thing of the past. Now it's a matter of how badly you want one.

We are now in the territory of "the greater fool theory." (There will be a greater fool that will pay more.) So, prices will keep going up and up -- until they reach a tipping point and collapse. This is what happened in the Tulip Craze in Holland in the 1600's. But, it may take a long time for the cycle to run its course. I've been waiting for machine gun prices to collapse, but it hasn't happened yet.

If you think that there's a greater fool waiting down the line, buy now (even at inflated prices) and hope that you can bail out at a profit before the inevitable collapse.

 

[KYamateur]

The Ruger LC carbine is another interesting gun but the ammo isn’t any cheaper than 30 carbine and I much prefer the cool factor on the M-1. I saw the new Thompson Tanker .45 on the shelf and it is pretty cool too - just pricey. Anyways, thanks for the feedback. I’m just going to keep looking a little while.

 

[Speedo66]

My GI Carbine is one of my favorite guns, I highly recommend it.

My thought would be to find a good military model, even if you have to pay more. The commercial models have always been spotty as far as reliability, and will never appreciate in value like an original military version will.

Why are they expensive (desirable), because they are an American military arm, which always are collectible, a part of history from the WWII era, and for a military arm, have little recoil, so even younger shooters can enjoy them.

The ammo wasn’t always expensive, AIM Surplus used to sell it under $20 a box of 50. If ammo prices ever get back to normal, Carbine ammo should come down again, too.

Like they say, the best time to buy something was 10 years ago, the second best time is now. Ten years from now you’ll be congratulating yourself on the great price you got.

 

[CoalTrain49]

I have a 43 Inland with a Win barrel that's been through the arsenal refurb at least once. Stock isn't original, or even USGI, but the barrel is a one and it's a good shooter. Nothing to write home about. Mostly they aren't reliable unless you replace all of the springs and rebuild the bolt, which I did. I also load my own ammo. I think these are the basics of owning and shooting a USGI carbine. If you aren't there then you need find something else to shoot.

As others have said, they just don't make any sense unless you collect them. The cool factor is definitely there but the time to buy one would have been 10 years ago before the CMP quit selling them. I found mine in a gun shop in ID about 10 years ago for eight and change. Wasn't a great deal then but it looks like a great deal now.

Doing it today, if I wasn't a reloader, I'd just find a new 9mm carbine and forget about the USGI. 30 Carbine brass is hard to find even if you reload. I have a good supply of it but it took me years to get it. 9mm cases used to be free by the hundreds. Not so much these days but it's never been as hard to find as 30 Carbine.

 

[CapnMac]

If I bought one of the new auto ordnance rifles are they known to be reliable?

Yeah that "boat" sailed right around 1995.
My very nice (very worked over) Inland that was $400 for being very "pretty"

A great improvement over the third(ish) Gen, mixmaster, Unviversal I bought in the 80s for $125, and barely got $100 for a few years' later.

But, since 2010 or so, the "war issue" examples just dried up and the prices skyrocketed. So, I counted myself hugely lucky to get this sweet Saginaw off a THR member in 2015 got around a grand.

Now, I'm a military collector, so, the "actual military" part has importance to me in actual dollars.
The Saginaw runs just fine at the range, easily the equal of my Inland (lost to the 20008-2012 2nd Depression).

Now, that Inland showed some of the Carbine's quirks when used in Service Rifle competition. But, for poking hoes in paper at a range, no problem.

Of the new production stuff, I have little to say. The AO production hired a subcontractor to cast a bunch of Carbine reproduction parts, which have fueled the rise of the new reproduction market represented by Inland, Rockola, et al. Fulton is one of the few that has not leapt on the "new cast parts bandwagon, and the price reflects that.

The (New) Inlands and Rockolas I have actually touched have been underwhelming. Especially at the price. But, that's the nature of the beast, too--it's hard to have economy of scale if you are only making a 1000 of something versus 100,000 of the same thing.

And, it's a shame, as the balance of the Carbine is hard to argue with. It's handy, responsive, and well proportioned.

 

[Spug]

You probably should pick up the wrench for the gas piston too. 4 of the 5 of mine had the staking on them broken too and were loose.

Just be sure that you properly stake it if you ever take the piston out, and don't allow oil to load up in the gas block through overuse of solvents and lubricants or storing the carbine in a position that will allow that to happen. There should be no need to go into the piston assembly for anything routine I think, but sometimes you have to.

I've got a four digit Universal (i.e. mostly-GI commercial model), which are the only really worthwhile ones as far as I've heard, and an earlier one. At some point in its life the Universal's gas block had cracked, rendering the gun useless, or at the least very unsafe to shoot without further damage. I ended up having it micro-welded and the guy did a good job at a fair price and it has held up since and has had a few hundred rounds through it. Can't wait to take it out again. I've got everything I need to reload for the .30 carbine but have not attempted it yet and will pay attention to case length especially when I do.

I've heard of people using lead bullets to reload .30 Carbine but I don't intend to try it unless I run out of bullets. My Universal's gas block has been through enough trauma.

If you anticipate working on the bolt, the bolt assembly tool is really worthwhile, at least at the price I paid for one not too long ago. It is physically possible for an adept young man to reassemble the bolt, I can assert. But I definitely recommend the tool if you ever want or need to disassemble the bolt.

The Prvi Partizan softpoint ammo is the way to go for that sort of use. Note spelling correction to trackskippy's great observations.

There's so many great reasons to love the M1 Carbine. I've got other pistol caliber carbines I love, but the M1 is just special and if you love it you've got to have it.

 

[Varminterror]

It's probably quite apt to say you missed the boat on the M1 Carbines, but from where I sit, that's not a bad thing. Grab up a PCC in 9mm, for lower cost and with more broadly available and lower cost ammunition, AND with more modularity and less expensive repair/remodel costs... Win-win-win-win...

 

[tarosean]

We are now in the territory of "the greater fool theory." (There will be a greater fool that will pay more.) So, prices will keep going up and up -- until they reach a tipping point and collapse. This is what happened in the Tulip Craze in Holland in the 1600's.

Tulips are produced everyday. M1 Carbines haven't been in service for 50yrs.

The boat wasn't missed, just costs more for a ticket today.

 

[Slamfire]

Having shot my original GI carbines in local 100 yard matches, I am not a particular fan of the M1 carbine. A GI carbine that will hold the black at 100 yards is a rare and desirable item. I have seen targets, shot targets, where none of the bullets were in the black. And these were M1 carbines that went through rebuilds and were condition Code A.

The carbine was never made to be a full up rifle substitute, it was always a pistol substitute. I would consider it acceptable as a pistol substitute, a close range weapon, light, not a lot of recoil. Goes bang every time and stays on a two foot by two foot target at 25 yards. None of my M1 carbines will shoot correctly for elevation. The rear sight is balanced between graduations when shooting at 100 yards, and the thing slips. Windage adjustments are huge, like four MOA per click, not the advertised 1 MOA.

Our last WW2 Veteran, Sammy, he was issued a M1 carbine and claimed he could not hit a Japanese soldier with the thing at 200 yards. During basic, Sammy was given a M1 carbine for familiarization. He said the first shot out of the thing was at the very top of the target at 200 yards. He took it to the Armorers behind the line, and they fiddled with it, and Sammy went back enough times in his 10 rounds of familiarization that he got the weapon zero'd. Then it was taken from him. The next ten round familiarization period Sammy was given a different M1 carbine to shoot, the zero was way off, and Sammy went through the same routine to get it zero'd. And that carbine was taken away from him. Twenty familiarization shots were all Sammy and his buddies got before they were dumped in a combat zone. There was not time to train anyone to any level of marksmanship. On the invasion of Iwo Jima, Sammy was issued an unzero'd M1 carbine as he entered his invasion ship. He said he zero'd the rifle in combat, asking his buddies to spot the impacts for him, and knocking the rear sight with the butt of his knife. The bottom line was, the Navy, the Marines, and the Army had no expectation that the cannon fodder they were feeding into the meat grinder were going to have the shooting skills to hit much of anything, so function reliability was much more important than accuracy. Two years before the time of Iwo Jima, the US was suffering 60,000 causalities per month, which breaks down to 20,000 dead per month, and 40,000 per month in various states of disassembly. So by the time Sammy was standing on the beach at Iwo Jima, recruits did not have the time to learn marksmanship. Those Service members who could consistently shoot well at the beginning of the war, by the end of the first year of war, had been shredded by the meat grinder of war, and were spread out as compost on all various battlefields through out the world. Sammy said, if his Dad had not taught him how to shoot as a kid, he would never had made it alive out of the war.

Gotta to tell you, the American society has forgotten that total wars are meat grinders. They only end, when there is no more meat to grind.

One of my shooting buds had tried everything he learned on Garands to accurize his carbine. He glass bedded it, tuned the trigger, etc. It still grouped poorly, Then he found an aftermarket M1 carbine with a match barrel, and it shot better. Even then, it was not match grade, just better than the run of the mill military M1 carbines. The M1 carbine had a 90 day development period, and considering the incredibly short period of development, it did very well as a pistol substitute. Just don't expect it to be refined or accurate. It was also put together in a time when getting it out the door was more important than making it perfect. Maybe this will give you an idea of what was important:


2020 Sept Military History Magazine

Close Enough, -the proximity fuze was the best kept Billion dollar Allied Secret of World War II

Program Manager Merle Tuve directives, posted on John Hopkins APL Maryland Laboratory walls:

I don’t want any damn fool in this laboratory to save money. I only want him to save time.

Shoot at an 80 percent job; we can’t afford perfection

Don’t try for an “A”; in a war “D” is necessary and enough, but an “F” is fatal

The best job in the world is a total failure if it is too late

Our moral responsibility goes all the way to the final battle use of this unit; its failure there is our failure, regardless of who is technically responsible for the causes of failure. It is our job to achieve the end result

I would not spend big bucks on an M1 carbine unless I just wanted an M1 carbine. There are better, cheaper alternatives

 

[CoalTrain49]

Out of the factory the carbine was tested for 4 MOA. Better than 4 MOA it passed quality control and was shipped. If people think it's a rifle, it isn't. If someone can actually shoot well with irons they will be disappointed with the practical accuracy of an USGI M-1 carbine as it was originally produced. Some shoot much better but they have to have good barrels, which many don't. I had one with a very well used barrel. My dilemma was replace the barrel or sell it. I sold it.

 

[Mosin77]

All these comments talking about how the M1 Carbine isn’t a great rifle are correct. It’s not a precision marksmanship trophy winner, it’s not terribly effective at 600 yards. Nevertheless, in the real world it was a fantastic gun: simple to aim and operate, generally reliable and well made, light and highly portable, mild recoil, and plenty of semi-auto killing power at the ranges actually encountered in most combat. (Ballistics compare solidly to .357 mag.)

Today that means it’s an iconic weapon of WWII and therefore likely to be collectible for decades to come. It’s also got respectable firepower even by today’s standards and ammo is far more available than for other platforms of similar age. So if you’re still jonesing for one, it’s not a gun you’re likely to lose your shirt buying, if you can swing the fairly steep entry price today.

I bought my Inland a year ago for $900 (modest deal) and don’t regret it.

 

[film495]

I'd have on if they were cheap, but instead have a Mini-14 and a 9mm Carbine. I think of the Mini-14 as a M1 Carbine that shoot a modern cartridge.

 

[Ironicaintit]

You didn't miss the boat, but the tickets got a lot more expensive and harder to find.

I'm a fan of the carbine, but I'm not sure I'd pay today's prices. You need to understand what it is and still really want it

 

[GBExpat]

Yeah, I think that you probably "missed the boat" on M1 Carbines (as well as a "few" other items). Sorry!

I got my pair of Inland M1 Carbines ($495/ea+shipping) in Summer'07 when the CMP received their first batch (also acquired a decent supply of mags & ammo (+components for handloading) at decent prices for the time). While I wasn't initially drawn to the M1 Carbines, I found that they quickly grew on me. Nice, handy, accurate little rifles! Good walkabout rifles.

 

[Rshooter]

I missed the boat in the 90's when an old veteran offered me a Rockola, IBM and two others for several hundred dollars each. I was into 1903's and Garands back then so I said no. One of the dumbest things I did. With prices today I would rather buy a Garand or M14 or FAL. I hear good things about them but when I was younger veterans told me they would not stop a bad guy.

 

[CoalTrain49]

Tulips are produced everyday. M1 Carbines haven't been in service for 50yrs.

The boat wasn't missed, just costs more for a ticket today.

Tulips is a bad analogy. Who dreamed that one up? Where I live there are millions in bloom every spring. I haven't seen millions of USGI carbines around here lately. It would be nice if there were. I might buy a dozen or so.

 

[cfullgraf]

I have five USGI carbines plus an Auto Ordinance Paratrooper version (the only way I could swing a paratrooper model).

I’ll agree, the Auto Ordinance rifles can be hit or miss, mine is pretty reliable, but not all my USGI carbines are reliable shooters either. I think it is the magazine but I cannot say that definitely.

The carbine is fun to shoot and I feel it would be a good, short range defensive firearm. But, I feel, home defense is hard service for home defense for a USGI carbine. A 300 Blackout AR-15 with supersonic 125 grain or so ammunition would be a good alternative.

As a side note, the Auto Ordinance Paratrooper kicks like a mule with the steel frame stock.

 

[CoalTrain49]

I'd have on if they were cheap, but instead have a Mini-14 and a 9mm Carbine. I think of the Mini-14 as a M1 Carbine that shoot a modern cartridge.

I have a Mini 14 also. The basic design is the same as M-1. Buy one of those if you want reliable performance and cheap ammo. It's a recent production carbine that uses a really nice 21st century military rifle cartridge. You can put a scope on it too.

 

[KYamateur]

Thanks for all of the feedback. When I passed on them in the past I really didn’t want one at the time. I was into shooting ARs and big bore revolvers. As I’ve gotten older the big bore revolvers are not that much fun to shoot anymore and I’m just looking for some fun recreational shooting with something different. I sold a couple of the revolvers on consignment at a lgs and I am going to get a couple of new carbines. I went by the local gunshop today and I’m either going to pony up for a WW2 era m-1 or get the Ruger 5.7 LC Carbine. Many of you have mentioned 9mm carbines and I am going to pick one of them up too. I’ve been debating between the Keltec and Ruger. I think the Ruger is unattractive but I’m now seeing a couple of companies making aftermarket wood stocks and they look cool with the railed version. I’ve also seen one of the new Henry Homesteaders and they are very attractive but too new to know if they are good quality.

 

[TTv2]

I've got a Marlin Camp Carbine in 9mm. Marlin also made this in .45 Auto. These Marlin Camp Carbines (out of production) require some modifications, else they will self destruct over time or after many rounds of ammo. I modified mine and it is a dynamite "handy rifle" / truck rifle / "fun gun". I put a red dot scope on mine and it is a 2-liter ice-water bottle slayer extraordinaire. Ruger now has a 9mm carbine that a lot of folk really like. Now that I've made the modifications, I'm keeping the Marlin.

The 2-liter water bottles are great to keep in your freezer. Going to the range, they're targets. In the freezer, they provide thermal capacitance. Going on a picnic, throw one or two in your ice chest and that chest will stay cold for hours and hours; even over a day.

For fun, shoot the cheapest FMJ 9mm you can find. If you are going to use it as a home defense rifle, then you should only use certain brands of 9mm ammo. Why? Because most 9mm ammo gains little, if any, velocity in longer barrels.

https://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/self-defense-ammo-for-pistol-caliber-carbines/

View attachment 1134235

I agree in principle that a modern 9mm PCC is a cheaper and probably more practical choice, but the .30 Carbine is exceptionally more powerful and basically all factory ammunition is built for use in a rifle. There is no dedicated ammo for 9mm for use in a PCC.

 

[35 Whelen]

I've been a shooting fanatic since I was about 5 years old, a love fed by my father and his constant supply of guns, ammunition and reloading components for 20 years then by various second incomes for another 40 years. I've been through shotgun phases, benchrest phases, high velocity rifle phases, 1903A3 phases, Swiss K-31 phases, Ishapore phases, long range phases, High Power competition phases, Cowboy Action Shooting phases, hunt with revolver phases, Mosin Nagant phases, AR15 phases, Mini-14 phases, AK-47 phases, fix-broken-gun phases and more others that I've forgotten. Heck, it's been so bad that the wife and I bought 55 acres and I had a 25-100 yd., then a 200 yd. range laid out before the road into the place was packed down. Then came the 300-600 yd. range. I still enjoy many of these phases but for the last three years M1 Carbines have dominated and consumed more of my time at the gunsmithing bench, the reloading bench and the shooting bench than any others before. Currently I own (I think) fourteen of them, three of which are commercial examples (1st Gen Universal x2 and an Iver Johnson) with the remainder being various US military examples by most of the WW2 manufacturers. As such I've learned a bit about them and have definitely and have sifted through a lot of the regurgitated BS.

To @KYamateur if you just want an M1 Carbine to shoot look closely at the older commercial models. The 1st Generation Universal's (S.N.'s under 100,000) are pretty good and many times slip through the cracks on Gunbroker and sell for <$1000. The easiest way to spot them is to look at the charging handle. If it's skeletonized like this-



then it's NOT a 1st Generation Universal.

The newer of the two I own (S.N. 70,xxx) is quite accurate routinely grouping under 3" at 100 yds. with cast and jacketed bullets alike-



I wanted a carbine to keep in my daily driver pickup so I adapted my newer Universal to a folding stock and it continues to shoot well, even at 200 yds.-



My other Universal is quite a bit older. I haven't shot it quite as much but it appears to be capable of 3"-4" 100 yd. groups

My other commercial example is an Iver Johnson. I paid $500 shipped for it and it was a hot mess, with POI at 100 yds. being about 3 FEET right of POA at 100 yds. and the bolt hanging during cycling. It took some pretty drastic measures and quite a bit of time at the workbench to correct the POI , but now it too is a pretty good shooter-



The only reason I can come up with that these are "so" accurate is the commercial barrels vs. wartime barrels.

For a while I had an IAI (Israel Arms International) which is a later, USGI compatible carbine and it was a pretty good one too. Often they sell for <$1000 on Gunbroker. You might watch for those.

There are still deals on USGI carbines, but they won't drop in your lap, you have to be vigilant. How about a re-Park'ed Inland for $750 that sold just yesterday? Another Inland for $850. Last spring I attended our local Scentsy/Yankee Candle...I mean Gun Show and left with a nice IBM for a paltry $800-



About a year ago some friends who buy unclaimed storage units called me and they'd found a run-of-the-mill Inland in the back corner, significantly rusted and in a battered stock. I bought it for a song, cleaned the bore that was also rusted, went straight to the bench with it, moved the sight to the 200 yd. setting and flung a few-



OK, so it shot a little high, but didn't group terribly bad.

Regarding reliability, I've yet to find one that is not brought up to snuff by replacing the springs and disassembling and cleaning the bolt. Magazines, I guess I have three dozen military have magazines and have only one that gives me problems and the spring is noticeably weak. I'll replace it eventually. The new Korean KCI magazines are 100% reliable and fairly inexpensive.

I don't know why people have such a hard time getting accuracy from carbines, maybe I've been lucky? Granted, I have had maybe two or three that wouldn't do less than 5" or 6" at 100 yds. no matter what I tried, but most of those I've owned will do around 3" consistently, some even less.



The sights on the carbines were well designed. At their lowest setting and firing a 110 gr. FMJ @ ~2000 fps, POI should be +3" @ 100 yds., 0" @ 150 yds. and about -7" @ 200 yds. This give the little carbines a defensive point blank range of around 200 yds., where the bullet is still clipping along at almost 1300 fps.

Speaking of POI, if I can fault the Carbine for anything, it'd be POI's that don't match the sights. POI's too low are fairly easily to correct by removing a little metal from the front sight. But POI's that are too high or too far laterally to be corrected by sight adjustment require some unorthodox measures to correct that are best left for another thread.

The cartridge itself isn't terribly difficult to load, but one does need to watch case length. Brass is quite commonly found for sale on forums and there's always plenty on Gunbroker. Although I shoot mostly Hornady and Sierra bullets, I found a screaming deal on Armscor bullets at $9.57 per 100, shipping included.

Sorry for the dissertation, but maybe it will clear the air some.

35W

 

[Old Hobo]

I agree in principle that a modern 9mm PCC is a cheaper and probably more practical choice, but the .30 Carbine is exceptionally more powerful and basically all factory ammunition is built for use in a rifle. There is no dedicated ammo for 9mm for use in a PCC.

How about the .40 S&W and .45 Auto? What does testing show concerning their performance vs. .30 carbine? I know that a 16" barrel helps the .45 a lot more than the 9mm. During or just after the war, a fellow showed my dad his jacket he was wearing when he got slammed by multiple rounds out of some German full-auto sub-gun. By definition, the fellow was still alive.

I've not studied this topic. I guess the draw to the 9mm carbine is that folk already have a carry 9mm handgun. If you have 30-round magazines that fit both your handgun and your carbine, then that is a net positive. With medium powered cartridges, one keeps firing into the aggressor until they give up the fight. The 30-round magazines could become necessary after a societal or economic collapse -- terrible topic, this, but totally unavoidable these days. Me, hey, I'm simply staying as FAR away from urban areas as possible. Those places are already swirling down the drain. Being out in farm country and forests is better for the soul. Firearms suited for the Heartlands / "God's Country" / Mother Nature's turf are a whole different category, firearms-wise. Firearms here are for providing food for the supper table. Only during some "we hope this doesn't happen" event will necessitate other forms of weaponry. This world, this human species, is utterly unpredictable. Pick up any book on World History -- such books will speak to the citizenry being self-sufficient and armed.

Oh, just thought, what about the .357 SIG carbines! What is their performance like? I know they exist. Sounds like a great carbine cartridge. Is it? I need to study this topic. Don't know anything about .357 SIG carbines, nothing.

During WWII, my dad was first issued a Thompson (he drove tanks); then, these were gathered-up and sent further forward (he delivered tanks to the motor pools supporting the front). After this, he and his mates were issued .30 carbines. He loved his M1 Carbine and had NOT liked the Thompson. They practiced with the .30 carbines by shooting rats trying to get into his company's mess hall / food stores . The wharf rats would tunnel under their fences. We're talking BIG rats. Buzz bombs and rats -- what joy! Isn't war grand ... NOT. His brother was in horrid combat. Was issued the M1 Garand. Half of my uncle's company was killed. The M1 Garand is a study in what a battle rifle should be.
.

 

[MikeInOr]

I love my M1 carbine, it is such a soft shooter. But for what they are wanting for one today I would use that money to upgrade to a quality delayed blow back 9mm carbine instead of a cheaper straight blowback 9mm carbine. The felt difference in shooting a delayed blowback 9mm carbine and a straight blowback 9mm carbine is about the same as the difference between a m1 carbine and a straight blowback 9mm carbine.

Personally I like the roller delayed blowback 9mm carbines aka HK MP5 and clones. My straight blowback Ruger 9mm PC Carbine just doesn't measure up to the soft shooting m1 carbine or a MP5 / clone.

 

[toivo]

If you just want something fun to shoot, get a 10/22 and one of these kits:

https://www.eabco.net/M1-Carbine-Re...sion-20--Includes-TWO-Handguards_p_13774.html

Add the Tech Sights, and if you really want the M1 experience, get one of the dummy "magazines" that you glue onto the Ruger rotary mag. Someday somebody will get smart and make a kit like this for the Ruger PC Carbine.