M-1903 Major Problem/Long/Quiz

[eclancy]

Gentlemen,

Here's an easy quiz on the Model 1903.

This problem started in the mid 1930's. On March 5, 1941 The USMC adopted the M1 Garand Rifle. At that point in time the USMC states that it has "At the present time the Marine Corps has approximately 52,000 serviceable M-1903 Rifles; 4,000 awaiting reconditioning for which the Marine Corps has been unable to get spare parts from the Army; and an additional 3,000 each component of which is unservicable."
Remember, this is in 1941.

The quiz is what has happened with the Model 1903 Rifles and Why did it happen.
I need TWO answers on this one.

Have fun with this one.

My sites with data and books and CD for sale. These are commercial sites. They also have Ordnance Data files posted there.
http://www.users.fast.net/~eclancy
http://www.garandm1rifle.com
Thanks again
Clancy

 

[johnmcl]

My Two Guesses

Hey Clancy,

I'm guessing here, but I suggest one thing is Remington taking over production of the 1903, hence the 1903 Modified and then the 1903A3.

The second was motivational in that Springfield was busy with the Garand and didn't have production capacity?

Am I close?

John

 

[eclancy]

johnmcl,
Sorry your not there yet. Nice try.
Thanks again
Clancy
johnmcl looks like it's just us again

 

[johnmcl]

Just Us..

Clancy,

So, just *** is N. Catasauqua? We could do this over a cold beer. Northern VA, just west of DC is home to me.

I'm still thinking this problem through.....

John

 

[Khornet]

Oops

realized my guess was wrong before I even posted it. Thinkin' hard....

 

[Khornet]

How 'bout

unserviceable bolts? Happened because they were using nickel-steel for awhile, which didn't hold up?

 

[eclancy]

Khornet,
Nice try but your not there yet. Johnmcl I am just above Allentown Pa. I do go down to APG in Md. to talk and check with Dr. Atwater.
Thanks again
Clancy
Ps sometimes I get to The National Archives at Suitland Md

 

[Ian Sean]

Hi eclancy, over a bit west of you in Hamburg.

I'm guessing here but there was the problem with the heat treating of low # recievers on the early 03's. The Army was able to put them in reserve and or destroy damaged ones as they came in for repair.

I understand the Marines did not have the budget for doing that and stuck with the M1903 as is, plus something with the Hatcher hole drilled into the reciever to relieve pressure? Hatcher was an officer in the investigation and the hole was named after him.

If I recall, the recievers were poorly heat treated because the treatment was done by sight (visual color change of the metal) some got overheated and caused brittleness leading to burst recievers.

My guess, hope I'm on the right track with this one.

 

[johnmcl]

Maybe?

Clancy,

Is one problem that the 1903's got hosed from corrosive ammo, significantly reducing the number of serviceable rifles?

Drop me a note when you next come to Maryland. APG ain't all that far from Virginia.

John

 

[Ian Sean]

I love APG myself as well, I haven't been there since before 9/11. I understand they were looking at constructing a building to get everything in out of the weather, how is that progressing?

 

[eclancy]

Gentlemen,

In the early to mid 1930's Ordnance was selling to the Phihippine Gov.t Model 1917's Rifles. The funds Ordnance received they wanted for the M1 Garand Rifle. However, those funds were sent to other projects. In April of 1936 an Ordnance files tells us that the 1903 Rifles accessories and large quantity of spare parts were sold with these rifles, the Model 1903, and at the present time an accumulated shortage over time. Another report in 1937 states "a supply of spare parts for all types of small arms is urgently needed existing stocks are entirely inadequate even for peace time needs"
Then we have the above report telling us that as late as 1941 Ordnance doesn't have spare parts for the Model 1903 for the USMC. These rifles were sold here in the US. Can we say the early DCM and NRA. Also no spare parts were being built.
Hope you guys had fun with this one.
johnmcl, I Sean,
You are close to what was going on. Sean we could meet at the new store you have there.

My sites with data and books and CD for sale. These are commercial sites. They also have Ordnance Data files posted there.
http://www.users.fast.net/~eclancy
http://www.garandm1rifle.com
Thanks again
Clancy
ps need hits on the garandm1rifle.com site

 

[Khornet]

I've learned my lesson

not to open any Eclancy postings without my Brophy and Canfield at hand. But I'll get you one of these days, brother.

 

[eclancy]

Khornet,
All you would need is my books which are the Ordnance files.
Thanks again for all your comebacks
Clancy
ps just trying to get the real story out about the M1

 

[Gewehr98]

Eclancy, wasn't that fairly unusual in the grand scheme of things?

Usually the War Department or DOD would sell off excess weaponry if it was obsoleted by the next version of issue weapon. But here we have the 1903 and 1903A1 Springfield being sold off through the DCM and NRA well before WWII, in enough quantities to cause a documented shortage in war reserves. Were the civilian owners of these surplused 1903 Springfields supposed to report to active duty with their rifles, ala' Switzerland, come the next big callup? (that would also explain why my October 1918 M1903 came through the years looking as nice as it does, and in as-issued condition)

I'd be interested to see if the War Department learned their lesson, and waited a while before selling off the M1 Garands as surplus. Do your documents show when the first M1 Garands started moving out of Anniston for DCM sales?

 

[DMK]

Interesting point Gewehr98. Perhaps in their beaurocratic wisdom, the government figured A) WW I was the war to end all wars, and B) even if there was another war, that was going to be in over in Europe and the U.S. would be staying out of it this time and C) the Garand was being issued and was surely enough for the (then small) military's needs.

There was a lot of sticking fingers in ears and humming peaceful songs when the evidence of impending war was brought up in those days. Billy Mitchell and Claire Chennault are perfect examples of that.

 

[Ian Sean]

Interesting points.

I wonder if the depression played into this at all? We had a very small peacetime Army during the inter-war period (only a couple hundred thousand men IIRC) and millions of rifles in arsenals. Did they see civilian sales as a revenue stream as well?

 

[eclancy]

Gewehr98, DMK,
This is GREAT. This is what I have been trying to get going a look at the history of what was really going on at Ordnance between the wars. Point well taken DMK, the war to end all wars. The reason that the DCM (Dept. of Civilian Marksmen) was set up was to train by shooting the Military Rifle of the day to teach Civilians and members of the NRA basic rifle training so that in a time of war the US Army would have a pool of Instructors who could teach recruits how not to shoot each other. Today all you have to do is join a group and without firing a shot you can buy up to 8 rifles per year. In the mid 30's Ordnance had about 1 million M 1903's and over 2 million M 1917's. I have the exact numbers on these somewhere around here. After WW1 Officers could buy their 45's. You are correct about the sales. Remember, the M1 Garand Rifle was adopted as "Standard Issue" in Jan. of 1936, no production M1 Garands were built until July 1937 and that was only 2 rifles.
If you buy my books and sit down with a history book about WW2 every time something goes on overseas Ordnance reacts to it.
I hope some of this data makes sense. If it does please explain it to me
Time for my Med.'s
Clancy