M-2 Carbine: First assault rifle?

[DMK]

As to the definition of an assault rifle, the Federal law has already defined the term; let us not redefine and broaden it to let the anti-gun gang try to ban more rifles. There is already a movement to ban all semi-autos, let's not help them by calling the carbine an "assault rifle". And yes, they do monitor these sites and YOUR post could turn up in anti-gun propaganda.

Isn't the term for banned semi-autos "Assault Weapon"? It's the AWB, not the ARB. (They wanted to ban more than just "evil rifles". They wanted to ban "evil handguns" and "evil shotguns" too)

 

[Feanaro]

As to the definition of an assault rifle, the Federal law has already defined the term; let us not redefine and broaden it to let the anti-gun gang try to ban more rifles.

I don't think there is a Federal definition of an assault rifle, as we normally know it. Select fire, medium power round, detachable mags, etc.

 

[Badger Arms]

...importers ... who wanted to hype the guns and appeal to the "tactical" nut fringe who buy black nylon jock straps.

There is an element of truth in what you say, but the major blows to the 'military style' market were struck by the elder President Bush by means of the unconstitutional legislative use of the executive order power. How a sitting president can make an executive order that holds the weight of law and is NOT subject to judicial review is beyond logic. What is perverse about marketing tactics is that the AWB is all about appearance over function. They ban COSMETIC features and ignore the fact that there is no mechanical difference in banned guns and 'approved' guns. So in a sense, it was all about the hype and had nothing to do with reality or function. That is not the importers fault, that is the fault of those who ignored logic... well, I digress.

Back to the Carbine. It was said earlier that we should have just used a pistol caliber. Well, we essentially did. The 30 carbine is not much different from the 7.62x25 especailly as it's loaded for the Czechs. The Russians didn't seem to complain too much about their guns, did they? And they called them, quite properly, submachineguns. I think that a Carbine so-equipped with a drum magazine of high capacity or even with 30-rounders would serve the SMG role better than the other SMG's of the time. Support troops could be issued 10" barreled versions and we could dump the 45 SMG/Carbines alltogether. Hindsight is a wonderful thing though.

 

[shep854]

I have a question about the "lack of stopping power" troops complained about during the Korean War. How did the .30 carbine round compare to the ammo used by the PPsH "burp gun" (7.62x25?)?

I've read that the burp gun was considered more lethal than the carbine.

I've seen stats that indicate that the .30 carbine round is more powerful than the .44 magnum, on paper.

 

[natedog]

Badger Arms, didn't Bush Sr's executive order just tell the ATF to re-evalute the "sporting use" clause of the '68 GCA?

Could someone explain to me, in detail, the executive order? When can it be used, and how are they repealed? I thought we dumped "rule by decree" in 1776 ....

 

[Badger Arms]

Here's a list of every Executive Order by Every President: http://www.archives.gov/federal_register/executive_orders/disposition_tables.html

I'll have to admit that though I assumed it was an executive order, I could not find one that addressed anything like this.

but the major blows to the 'military style' market were struck by the elder President Bush by means of the unconstitutional legislative use of the executive order power. How a sitting president can make an executive order that holds the weight of law and is NOT subject to judicial review is beyond logic.

Maybe I should eat crow.

 

[shep854]

I checked the ammo tables in the Guns & Ammo 2004 Annual, it gives muzzle energy of the 110 gr .30 carbine ball as ~960 ft/lb. This pub puts mid to heavy bullet .44 mag in the same range. .357 magnum was listed in the 500-600 ft/lb range.

These were for factory ammo. No doubt handloads could be made far hotter.

 

[SDC]

I don't recall ever reading that the .30 M2 wasn't good at KILLING enemy combatants during Korea, but where they failed was in putting them down immediately; in the 15-20 seconds that a Chinese or North Korean soldier might have left after catching a burst, he could easily dump a PPSH magazine or pull the igniter cord on a grenade. If FMJ wasn't mandated, I'm sure that this could be improved significantly, but they didn't have that option on the Peninsula.

 

[pauli]

shep, you have to consider barrel length in the equation. all three rounds behave quite differently in a carbine than they do in a revolver... how were the numbers in question derived? was some poor fool/lucky sob sent to the range with revolvers in 44, 357, and 30 carbine? if so, can he still hear?

(btw, my math shows that a 125gr bullet needs to go 1850fps to generate 950ftlbs... which, as i understand it, is reasonable for a carbine)

 

[shep854]

Pauli, those thoughts occurred to me as well. Using those tables is probably "apples to oranges", in that as you mentioned, the pistol rounds were likely shot from a 4-6in barrel. It would be interesting to see the comparison of three pistols, as well as actual chrony of three carbine barrels.

 

[shoobe01]

I have only heard the one defintion for assault rifle, and I'm sticking to it. (BTW, the .223 is just small, not abbreviated, so maybe doesn't strictly fit either).

Anyway, by this mesure, the M1/2 Carbine sounds like one to me. A .30 cartridge was requested, but attenuated so that the gun is lighter and recoil less. In fact, the only reason it might not be is the intent. We wanted the gun as a PDW -- an upgrade to the pistol -- instead of a firepower shift (increase?) for the infantryman.

The first, hard to nail down without research. There was lots of work in this regard in WW1 and even a tad before. Experiments like lightened Lewis guns and Maxims (!) for trench warfare raiding parties, for example. Even by then the Germans had discovered the SMGized pistols didn't have the stopping power required for a battlefield, so wanted something like a rifle cartridge. They never quite got there till the StGws appeared, but there you go.

If you disregard the cartridge thing, how about the FG-42? Do design principles have anything to do with it? Straight-line stock, detachable mag, etc.? Cause I hardly think the Mini (ok: AC-556) fits assault rifle; just being smaller than a battle rifle doesn't exactly make it an assault rifle to me....

 

[Feanaro]

shoobe01: The FG-42 is a battle rifle, if I am not mistaken. If you go by Cooper's system, it would be a phase/generation 3. Detchable magazines, full rifle caliber, select fire.

 

[Badger Arms]

The M14, FG42, FAL, Tokarev, and probably a few others were merely Main Battle Rifles by first-half-century definition that also had 'emergency' full-auto capabilities.

 

[BigG]

Trebor is correct, imho. The Federov Avtomat was the first true assault rifle as we know it today. WWI era.

 

[buzz_knox]

in the 15-20 seconds that a Chinese or North Korean soldier might have left after catching a burst, he could easily dump a PPSH magazine or pull the igniter cord on a grenade

Actually, it's been proposed that this is a myth. There is a strange dichotomy in reports of the .30 carbines' effectiveness. The carbine was reported as effective during World War II, and ineffective in Korea. The hypothesis is that the M2, which was more prevalent in Korea than WWII, created the ineffective carbine myth because soldiers would fire a burst and not stop the enemy. They would naturally assume that the enemy had taken the burst and kept coming. They never stopped to think that they missed with the first round and, due to the climb of the weapon, the remainder of the burst never got near the enemy.

 

[JPL]

I've heard that the main reason for the .30 carbine's poor performance in Korea was because of the heavy, quilted uniforms that the Chinese and Koreans wore for cold weather.

My uncle, a Korean War veteran, told me that a couple of years ago when he was trying to kill a groundhog in his garden with his carbine.

The groundhog got away with a load of beans.

 

[shep854]

(As he finishes another piece of humble pie )

I looked further on the rifle table of the G & A 2004 Annual, and yep, there they were--data for .357 mag and .44 mag rounds from rifles. And, of course, Pauli was on it; .357 mag equivalent to .30 carbine. .44 mag has nearly twice the m.e. of .30 carbine.

Pauli, thanks for being patient with other people's ignorance.

BTW; wasn't the PPsH considered effective against winter-garbed opponents? Anyone have data on the loads used?