M16 family of rifles...3 round burst accuracy?

[lysander]

I'm wondering, from those with experience...have any of you ever fired 3 round bursts from an M16 style rifle for accuracy on paper? If so at what distance, with what version/setup, and what kind of groups did you get?

**** Edit to Add: If you don't have experience...I'll gladly accept any research dug up.

 

[nalioth]

The "burst" is mislabeled.

It actually should be called a 'limiter'.

The problem (seen only by the bean counters) was that the US servicemen were using too much ammo on full auto.

They bleated enough to get the full auto setting reduced to 3 rounds at a time in full auto mode.

The first round will be on target and the 2nd and 3d will be higher, due to the slow cyclic rate of the M16 (and variants).


Heckler and Koch have a 'burst' mechanism in some of their rifles that uses an internal arrangement that enables a rate of fire of 2000 rounds per minute. This extremely high rate is only available when the weapon is in "burst" mode. The high rate of fire gives the operator one "felt recoil" and one "bang!" from the muzzle end, but 3 rounds have been sent downrange in close proximity to each other. This method is what the M16A2 tried to achieve, but through whatever red tape, failed.

 

[Chipperman]

It is more the technique and experience of the shooter than it is the mechanism.

My M16 is full-auto, so 3 round "bursts" are generated by trigger control, not by a silly FCG arrangement. I can easily keep 3 round bursts on a paper plate offhand at 20 yards. Longer distance will mean the 3rd round is probably off the plate.

I have two uppers, a 10.5 inch and an M4 (14.5 inch). Not much difference to me as far as the groupings go. Officially the M4 should be easier to control, but I am actually better with the 10.5 b/c I like it more (so I use it more).

 

[lysander]

I can easily keep 3 round bursts on a paper plate offhand at 20 yards.

Ever done anything at greater distances? What about supported?

 

[MGshaggy]

Heckler and Koch have a 'burst' mechanism in some of their rifles that uses an internal arrangement that enables a rate of fire of 2000 rounds per minute

I think you may be thinking of the Russian AN-94. No currently issued HK I know of has such a high RoF.

In any case, I agree 100% with Chipperman. I've never seen the need for a 3rd burst mechanism if you know what you're doing and have a little practice with the weapon. I can easily pull 2 and 3rd bursts without any burst mechanism. A big problem with it on an M16 is just the way the mechanism works. Each fire sequence before a reset has 3 rounds, so if you stop after 1rd, the next will only trigger off 2 and stop for a reset. If you fire 2 and stop, the next pull will only give you 1 before it stops on the reset.

 

[jobu07]

I've screwed around with burst on an M-4 at the 25M zero range. I was able to keep all the shots on paper but, well, they didn't stay on the shillouettes.

 

[Chipperman]

Ever done anything at greater distances? What about supported?

I don't think I've ever done full auto at more than about 30 yards offhand. Maybe 50 yards at most supported. Safety becomes a real concern when you start getting too far away from the berm. I'm shooting in New England, not out in the desert somewhere. If I send a round over the berm, there could be serious consequences.

It's really not very practical to be shooting full auto at anything that far away anyway. Maybe if the Zombie Hordes are advancing...

 

[MFC Bastion]

I think you may be thinking of the Russian AN-94. No currently issued HK I know of has such a high RoF.

That would be the G11, so you're right, never issued. The AN-94 does achieve 1800 rpm in a two round burst.

 

[lysander]

It's really not very practical to be shooting full auto at anything that far away anyway. Maybe if the Zombie Hordes are advancing...

...I'm not real worried 'bout the zombie hordes...just curious how tightly someone can group 3 rounds with one trigger pull. LOL!

 

[nalioth]

I never said "currently issued".

I was only pointing out the "burst capability design" the M-16A2 should have been reaching for, instead of the claptrap 3 round limiter it got stuck with.

 

[Chipperman]

just curious how tightly someone can group 3 rounds with one trigger pull. LOL!

Well if you clamp the gun in a vice, a 3 round burst will be almost as accurate as three single shots. How tightly can you hold the weapon during recoil?

I think for "most people" with a reasonable amount of training: a 3 round burst from an M16 at about 50 yards from a supported position would give you about an 18 inch group.

Yes, I am totally pulling that number from my nether regions. It's based on my personal experience and watching a lot of my friends shoot full-auto M16s.

 

[HorseSoldier]

It's accurate enough at CQB sort of ranges. From a supported and unsupported prone, aiming low for the first round, I've gotten multiple hits at 100 meters on steel chest plates with 3-5 round bursts from an M4A1.

 

[HorseSoldier]

Double tap

 

[redneckrepairs]

Played with them a bit , my sole issue is not the limit to 3 rounds it is the fact that the way it is done it destroys any chance of beyond minimum range accuracy when you flip back to semi . It is a " bean counter " solution to a so called problem that was an advantage when we adopted the platform . Now the AR/5.56 is ok as far as that goes imho ( not that i would not like to have different/better) and the 3 round redesign is just the last in an attempt to make the caliber work. We nowadays do a lot of city fighting as a country , and frankly the 3 round makes some sense for the training our troupes get . (If today amal pops out of a door a death grip fires 3 rounds and does not leave our boy unarmed ) . Could it be better for trained troops well hell yea lol. could the " better " kill a lot of kids well hell yea . Unless we go back to the concept of the " rifleman " across the board of the services the new AR platform will serve us as well as anything . I dont mean to post a judgment on a IMHO flawed weapon ( the entire ar line no matter the caliber as it stands ) . I rather seek to return us to " riflemen " whereby a common private from any company can under field conditions gain a hit at any reasonable range quickly , much like many who post here . Get a " new gun " or not , i say use some of the stockpiled ammo we have to actually train insted of familiarize the folks who go in harms way for the rest of us .

 

[Dave Rishar]

How about some videos?

Tapping off bursts. Target is a decommissioned Kevlar at 25 yards.

Clicky

More or less a mag dump. Watch the rifle closely for how it moves, and how it doesn't.

Clicky

Weapon was an A3. Time was a few years back. (Late 2005? That or 2004.) Note that my head is back and I'm looking over the sights. I found it hard to get anything done with my nose on the charging handle if the Happy Switch was on. I don't normally shoot like that. This was the only situation where I did.

I didn't do much FA. I wasn't actually supposed to be doing it there, now that I think about it. Don't tell anyone.

 

[lysander]

a 3 round burst from an M16 at about 50 yards from a supported position would give you about an 18 inch group.

This seems to jive with some of the other comments in this thread (paper plate sized, chest sized, etc.)

Thanks for the info everyone! Keep it coming.

 

[James T Thomas]

the shakes and being rattled

If you survey the resonders here, you will find out that the spread or dispersion stated is from a bench or those military shooters may have been from prone.

My experience with it is second hand. I saw others; those in my command shoot; snap shooting or instinctive, if you will, and the dispersion at jungle range with that type of fire was twelve inches, approximately.

The excitement and adrenaline fear factor has a geat influence.
I would have preferred some control mechanism and had been in situations where the ammo we carried was used up and resupply was critical!

The soldiers I knew were battle hardened. Experienced. And yet, full auto fire, even though ineffective was almost irresistable. Before you conclude that you could control your fire while being shot at -think again.
I had to enforce fire control especially among the FNG; F. New Guys repeatedly.

For the "Zombie" critics: I have seen dead men walking, and it is right out of a horror movie! Old "Horse Soldier" mentioned the M14.
They did a much better job of downing Zombies that did the McNamarra varmit gun.

 

[Float Pilot]

Another point that may have already been mentioned, the 3 round limiter messes up the regular single shot trigger pull. The semi setting on the original M-16s and M-16A1s resulted in a pretty fair trigger pull/break that made for some accurate shooting. The little cam wheel on the burst (limiter) makes for a crappy trigger during semi shootingf that sometimes changes.

PLUS: The crappy limiter does not reset. SO if your troops fire 2 shots then let go of the trigger, they will only get 1 shot during the next pull. So old hands like myself were going nuts trying to make the rifle work like it was originally supposed to work.

It the curent configuration the M16A2 and M4 are better used in semi mode only. Rapid aimed shots from the shoulder. There was a place for the full auto setting, but like all good things,the government figured out how to screw it up.

 

[elmerfudd]

Years ago I shot an M16A1 on a pop up range that I think was called the "Combat Assault Course". It was shot supported from a foxhole and we had a series of pop up targets that began at around 300m and gradually got closer and closer. They popped up in twos and threes and you were supposed to start in semi and then switch to auto, firing three round bursts as they got in around 100m or so. Firing bursts definitely did a better job of knocking down the targets.

 

[Realbigo]

Somebody w/ even decent weapons handeling expierience can easily control a A2 on burst, and get decent groups. W/ a little decent training they can do the same w/ an A1 as well. The only good reason for having the burst IMHO is to keep a Troopie from dumping an entire magazine ina panic situation. Think the guy in the classroom @ the end of "Heartbreak Ridge". A movie screen goes up suddenly, reavealing an anatomy class skeleton and the Marine sprays an entire mag into it and the wall behind it. The only time I ever switched to burst under fire was after we had just taken fire froma gun truck in Mogidishu. There were 8 of us and the 6 w/ M16's all lit him up w/ bursts, while our SAWs each hosed it w/ a box each. It was a Manic minute if I ever had one.

 

[lysander]

I did some time in the service and got trigger time behind the A2 series. However, as someone who already had plenty of shooting experience, I never bothered with the 3 round burst, as I was able to make my slim number of issued rounds stretch further with accurate, aimed fire.

I shot plenty of training courses (quals, live-fire shoot and move, live-fire position defense, etc.). Most of this was on various forms of the standard "pop-up" ranges, engaging targets from point blank out to 300 meters. That being said, I only ever put bullets on paper for groups when we were shooting for zero prior to qualifications.

 

[todayistomorrow]

Being in the army gives you quite a bit of time to get familiar with the weapons you are assigned to.

Instead of being my normal long winded self, I'll K.I.S.S.

The M16 Family of firearms are decent. They're not great, but they do work moderately well. Less so when there's dust. The three round burst is the top brass' way of keeping the FNG's from unloading a whole clip when they get scared. The three round burst is just about useless in an urban environment.

Riflemen need to be in semi. Leave the volume of fire to the guys lugging the M249's and 240's. Those weapons are designed for automatic and burst fire.

Accuracy with burst is passable when prone. Standing or crouching, as one would normally shoot in combat, is abysmal without giant hands and one hell of a grip. Anything beyond 50 meters is going to get one round where you're aiming, and the other two are going into the backdrop, which is unacceptable for collateral damage.

Cheers