M1a - am I missing something?

[unwise11]

I like M1A's, I will surely own one once I get older, I have only handled an FAL once, so I can't say I do or don't like them, I haven't fired an M1A yet, but I shot a Garand and I liked it alot, so I'll probably have one of those too.

 

[henschman]

If you don't like the sound of the M1A's action, how do you feel about the pogo stick sound of the LR-308?

 

[Z-Michigan]

how do you feel about the pogo stick sound of the LR-308?

I have an LR-308 and I actually don't notice any "sproing" with it... and I know exactly what you mean as most of my 5.56 ARs have the sproing.

 

[longdayjake]

I guess I don't really understand the point of this thread. Was it just to say that FAL's are better?

I have looked around quite a bit but I have not been able to find an FAL for $750 for about 7 years now. If you recently found one for $750 then please let me know where you found it because I would love to get one for myself. If you are comparing your recently bought M1a price to a FAL bought 7 years ago for $750 then you have a lot to learn about fair comparisons. 7-8 years ago M1a's could be found for $750-900 too you know. Though I admit that there are various ergonomic differences between the two that some might prefer over the other, there is no real difference in usability. Some people like the pistol grip. Others like the rifle stock. So what? That doesn't mean one is better than the other. They are both great guns and you prefer what you prefer. I don't much care for the shorter M1a's very much either but I don't think that is a fault of the design. I just like longer barrels for long range shooting. What was said about the trigger is my biggest reason for liking the M1a though.

So, the reason so many people prefer the M1a over the FAL is probably because they are different and they both work. Different people like different things.

 

[General Disarray]

longdayjake, you don't seem to have grasped the nuance of what I was searching for in my OP, but no biggy. I bought my Imbel FAL last summer at a gun show for $750, and just last weekend bought a G1 FAL on an Imbel receiver with a 16" barrel at that same show for $750 as well (talked him down from $800). But, how you could have decided I started this thread as a ruse to express an opinion that I think FALs are better than M1a's is a strange conclusion. I bought my M1a mostly because I don't have any peers or mentors in this rifle game, so for me to learn about stuff I have to buy the thing and start at it from scratch. I did as much research as possible and bought an M1a hoping I would love it. I'm at best in-like with it, so I wanted so insight from folks who are fans to tell me what it is I might be missing. I've made this point several times; it's even in the title: tell me what I'm missing. I'm quite familiar with the M1a v. FAL debates, and I wasn't looking to start a new one. Just curious what about M1a's I might be overlooking. I was prejudiced by the FAL with it's great ergonomics and light recoil, so I can't help but compare them when I'm at the range. But I wanted to hear from the M1a fans for further insight, that's all.

 

[longdayjake]

Good response. I wish I could find an FAL for that cheap around here. Anything military and semi auto in .308 goes for over 1k around here. For you to find one at a gun show (of all places) is a miracle.

One more question? What barrel length are your FALs? If they are 21" barrels that might explain a little of the recoil difference.

 

[Welding Rod]

The long sight radius, the excellent sights, the wood stock, the excellent 2-stage trigger.... those are things that make me love the STANDARD M1A.

If you don't have a full size gun and/or a wood stock, it probably just isn't the same. IMO those things are essential to the M1A experience. I have a SOCOM too, and I didn't feel much for it either until I put wood stock on it. And it still needs a better / conventional M1A type front sight like the Standard model wears.

 

[Pat M]

Not to change the subject too much, but what kind of groups do you guys get with your standard M1As, and what bullet weight do you shoot? I'm in the black at 200yds, but cannot group in the 10 ring even from the bench (and don't say it's the shooter....I'm fine with my other rifles).

 

[henschman]

I do about 1.5 MOA from prone using a sling with 147 grain ball.

 

[Bob Lee Swagger]

Love the M1A

I bought my M1A new in 1974 and I think that was the first year Springfield sold them, but maybe they started earlier. I got it because it looks like, feels like, and shoots like the M14 I took ashore at Danang in 1965 and carried for 13 months. I loved that rifle and so did a lot of other guys, so I suppose we're the ones who still rave about them. They were dependable and the ammo was mucho heavy, but I would have married mine if I could have kept her. It was one of the few times I was thrilled that we Marines were going to be sucking rear tit in getting new equipment, the M16 in this case. I didn't buy mine to go hunting with, just to have, but nowadays a man needs a good, dependable battle rifle and I don't have to waste time looking at all those ugly suckers trying to scare everyone.

 

[General Disarray]

I didn't think it likely when I started this thread, but I'm really starting to wonder if I haven't given mine enough credit. I really appreciate the insights.

 

[Roughneck08]

Scout




I'll admit, I am a follower of the cult. By far my favorite, even over my AR. The scout was a great choice it sure is handy.

 

[General Disarray]

 

[longdayjake]

Now you need a picture of the FAL next to the M1a.

I can group 1 moa with my m118 handloads at 200 yards and my Loaded M1a.

These groups were shot at 200 yards while prone using a sandbag as a rest using iron sights.

 

[Rshooter]

I'm at best in-like with it, so I wanted so insight from folks who are fans to tell me what it is I might be missing.

I either break out my M1 or M1A when I want to shoot for accuracy. The rifle stocks fit nicely without my hand being "out of place". Recoil is manageable and return to sight picture is quick and steady. The sights are superior to the FAL in my opinion. The rifle is far more accurate than I will ever be able to maintain. Being able to load with stripper clips makes the rifle more versatile also. After ten years magazines two through five are still in the packing grease.

 

[Polar Express]

Thanks for starting this thread, I've enjoyed reading it.

When it comes to ergonomics, and 'feel', everyone is different. We are all shaped different, with different preferences. To me, that's a huge reason to buy any platform over another: "What 'fits' you best?"

I own an M1A. I bought it new, in 'standard' configuration, 2 years ago. I bought into the hype that the new political admin was going to push to limit/ban/??? more guns, and I wanted to be grandfathered in if that did in fact happen. (I realize that's a debate for a separate thread, and I'm not trying to start it here, I was just sharing my motives for why and when I bought)

I wanted a .308 caliber battle rifle. And, I narrowed it down to 1) M1A, 2) AR-type, 3) FAL. Given the market status of the time frame, they were all harder to find, and really jumping in price. I had a friend that worked at a store, and he said he'd set aside a Armalite "kit" for me when they came in, if I didn't find one before then. It was going to be about $900. And frankly, I don't even know what would have been included in the 'kit'.

Having never shot any of those 3 platforms, I had no first-hand experience with any of them. I respect(ed) the pros and cons of each platform. But everything I 'knew' was based on books, articles, or second-hand statements from folks that had their biases. From what I could gather at that time, here's the jist of what I learned: AR-type is more sensitive to elements, and the DI is more accurate , FAL is less sensitive to elements, but less accurate but could deal with different ammo better. M1A was almost as accurate as the AR, and almost as rugged as the FAL. I was also talking to a few folks that had returned from the sandbox, with their observations of more of the M14s being placed back in service for both cartridge issues and environmental concerns. So when I got a phone call from a friend with a NIB Standard for $1200 (in that market), I jumped on it. I love the gun. But, I also put it into a SAGE stock, (a choice heavily influenced by the photos posted by H2OMAN here)

Now, I'm not trying to say that the M1A is any better or worse than the other platforms listed, but I'm just super-happy with mine. My standard came with a cruddy feeling plastic stock, but I didn't care. I wanted to put it into that SAGE stock. I love that SAGE, sure it's a little heavier, but I'm a bigger guy. So, I don't mind the weight. But... I'm also not lugging it around the desert, or jungle, and I realize that. But that SAGE also changed how it shoulders. And, I like it!

Personally, I WANT to put a DSA FAL (para) in my collection, as well as an original FN 'normal' one for historical purposes. But, I made my choice based on the potential that I might be able to only afford one before a potential ban was enacted. If I could only have one, I went with the M1A. Clearly, there has been no ban as of yet, so my fears have not materialized (thank God), but the prices haven't changed much either, so I didn't really cost myself any $$ with my haste. But, now, the 'next' rifle, I plan to buy an AR-type lower receiver, to secure the serial #.

I like mine, but I don't see any concrete reasons why it's clearly superior in all ways to other platforms. I want all of them in my collection.

PE

 

[jeepguy]

i bought a m1a ss loaded about a year ago for $1250. liked it but i thought it was too long. so i got a deal $750 on a 18" english fal on an imbel receiver with a muzzle brake. my friend and i went out to shoot it. we both did not care for it at all. sold it for a loss and didn't look back. a few months later i found an older m1a bush rifle with usgi parts and fell in love. it was what i had been looking for. i will probably have my loaded switched over to the 18" configuration. im getting about 2" to 2.5" inch group at 100yds open sights while standing with my 42yr old eyes. i think it has more accuracy potential if i can keep improving. i am wondering which rifle you shoot more accurately? btw i never thought you were bashing m1a's, and have really enjoyed this post.

 

[General Disarray]

i am wondering which rifle you shoot more accurately?

Well, to be honest I'm not really what folks might call "proficient" with a rifle. Nobody has ever taught me anything, so I don't even have anything to guage. I live in the mountains, and our range has about 75 members; I've never met one of them as nobody is ever out there when I'm there. That's just the deal for me, but aside from not having any peers to show anything, I also have a funny range in that it's basically perched on a hill. Picture this: there's a 100 yard range perpendicular to a slope that drops to a ravine which ascends back up directly across from you; so you fire down range with the hill dropping to the left. There's only one bench here, with one target at 100 yards. Here's the fun part; off across this hill on the other side of the ravine is another hill that's got steel targets scattered from 100 yards away to 1000 yards, all various sizes. There's easily 50 targets to engage; some animals, some small squares, large squares, triangles, etc. Those things are so fun to shoot off at that I've never bothered putting any paper up to find out about groups, or what have you. I put paper up at 25 yards, fire a new rifle at it 3 times to make sure I'm kind of on target, make adjustments, fire 3 more which hit on target, and then have at that hillside of steel enemy combatants.

 

[Horny Toad]

.....Picture this: there's a 100 yard range perpendicular to a slope that drops to a ravine which ascends back up directly across from you; so you fire down range with the hill dropping to the left. There's only one bench here, with one target at 100 yards. Here's the fun part; off across this hill on the other side of the ravine is another hill that's got steel targets scattered from 100 yards away to 1000 yards, all various sizes. There's easily 50 targets to engage; some animals, some small squares, large squares, triangles, etc......

That sounds like the coolest range ever.

 

[GCBurner]

If you're shooting surplus 7.62mm ammo, there can be big variations in group size, even if it's supposed to be NATO spec. I started out with some cheap Indian surplus, and it printed all over the target at 100 yards. That almost made me give up on it, until I found the Indian ammo didn't perform any better in my .308 bolt action, which shoots pretty well with commercial loads. I got some later production German surplus, which shoots much better, in the 3"-4" range with iron sights at 100 yards, and that's about as good as my old eyes can handle. I want to put on a scope mount to better see what it's capable of.
Mine is the Norinco M1A clone, BTW. I bought it cheap from a guy who read Internet horror stories from Smith Enterprises and Fulton Armory about how the bolts and receivers of the Chinese made guns were all too soft, too hard and brittle, not heat treated right, bolts didn't headspace or "collapsed" under firing, etc. My friend bought it for $400, got scared to shoot it, and sold it to me for $250, and was happy to get rid of it. I've only put 500-600 rounds through it so far, but haven't noticed any measurable changes in the bolt or headspacing yet. I figure if any problems crop up after a few thousand rounds, I'm in it cheap enough to get a GI bolt installed later, if necessary. The only things I've done to it so far are replace the original stock with a surplus walnut M-14 stock and fiberglass handguard, and replace the non-functional flash hider with a GI one with the bayonet lug.

 

[General Disarray]

That sounds like the coolest range ever.

I tend to think so. I like to go out almost every weekend. For posterity I should try and see what kind of groups these different rifles shoot, shouldn't I? This probably sound riduculous, but I don't quite know specifically what that means. Should I put the rifles on sandbags on the bench sitting down and hold real still, and see what happens? At 100 yards? I don't even think I can see that far. Doesn't the little black circle just look like a dot in open sights. I've done this to sight in a scope before, but with open sights are you supposed to use a closer distance? I'm sure I can't distinguish the center of a target that far away.

 

[ripcurlksm]

M14's??? just a matter of good taste...

 

[General Disarray]

M14's??? just a matter of good taste...

That's a nice setup; you're not saving for anyone's college tuition, are you? I estimate about $5K sitting on that bipod, right? Oh, and I assume another $2k for the Les Baer? Don't mind me, I'm just exceedingly jealous. This puts my $1500 investment into an interesting perspective.

This is kind of the crux of my issue with these; I don't have piles of cash and these M1a's seem to have gotten astronomically expensive these days. Then to have to drop it into a $500-$1K stock to trick it out just shorts my circuits. I'm thinking if I had something like an M1 Garand I wouldn't be so hung up about the price and could maybe enjoy it more?

So what about the BSZ and grouping questions I asked previously; any advice?

 

[LemmyCaution]

GD-

Here is a battle zero target for the M14 with M80 ball ammunition:
http://www.popintheyap.com/Targets/25_m_m14_zeroing_ltrsize.pdf
Make sure you do not have printer scaling enabled when you print it out.

Range is 25 meters.
Point of aim is the bottom center of the black rectangle.
Point of impact should be the 'X' above the rectangle.

This will give you a BZO good to about 275 meters.

Alternately, zero the rifle at 200 yards and reset the elevation drum to read at the '2' mark. Then adjust the elevation knob to a known distance target, out to 1000 yards (or meters, if you have a metric drum on the rear sight).

 

[d2wing]

Accuracy. In the Army I put 9 out of 10 shots in 1 hole with an issue M-14. I personally prefer the M-14 but FAL has more than it's share of devoted followers. If you don't like it sell it. No problem.