I think it a plus on the safety side. I have never seen 1st hand a weapon retention scenario, but have personally seen a couple ND. In the most recent and a club 'Tactical weapons' match, a competator, retired shefiff deputy, dropped the magazine, pulled the slid, which only went about half way, pulled the trigger to a thunderous 'BOOM'. It happens. Had that weapon had the disconnect, there would have been no 'BOOM'.
mag disconnect: thoughts on the pros and cons?
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berkbw
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Passing over the liability issues of removal -
There IS a pro - at least in my mind.
Scenario: I'm sitting, being kicked back with my protection peice, and some event outside of my house takes place, requireing me haul tail outside IMMEDIATLY. Rather than have to throw on some cover garment, I can stick the mag in my pocket, and go out with the gun in or on my desk. I would feel safe with doing that.
b-
There IS a pro - at least in my mind.
Scenario: I'm sitting, being kicked back with my protection peice, and some event outside of my house takes place, requireing me haul tail outside IMMEDIATLY. Rather than have to throw on some cover garment, I can stick the mag in my pocket, and go out with the gun in or on my desk. I would feel safe with doing that.
b-
My opinions:
1. It's a steaming bowlfull of "Doesn't Really Matter" on the M&P. The chances of benefitting from having the disconnect are about the same as suffering from having it- really really really freaking small- assuming you're doing everything right as a CCWer or range-shooter.
2. The design of the disconnect has no impact on trigger pull in the M&P, unlike the BHP, so this is also a non-issue.
3. It is possible to develop bad habits with the disconnect, but that's on you. Don't blame the gun for your bad decisions.
4. While the disconnect does add mechanical complexity to the gun, and useless complexity is bad in general, there would have to be something egregiously wrong for it to cause a problem. This something would almost certainly cause the gun to be non-functional anyway, so this is pretty much a non-issue as well.
5. You can buy M&Ps without the disconnect very easily. They may not be standard, but they're certainly a very available option.
In conclusion? It really doesn't matter all that stinkin' much.
Mike
1. It's a steaming bowlfull of "Doesn't Really Matter" on the M&P. The chances of benefitting from having the disconnect are about the same as suffering from having it- really really really freaking small- assuming you're doing everything right as a CCWer or range-shooter.
2. The design of the disconnect has no impact on trigger pull in the M&P, unlike the BHP, so this is also a non-issue.
3. It is possible to develop bad habits with the disconnect, but that's on you. Don't blame the gun for your bad decisions.
4. While the disconnect does add mechanical complexity to the gun, and useless complexity is bad in general, there would have to be something egregiously wrong for it to cause a problem. This something would almost certainly cause the gun to be non-functional anyway, so this is pretty much a non-issue as well.
5. You can buy M&Ps without the disconnect very easily. They may not be standard, but they're certainly a very available option.
In conclusion? It really doesn't matter all that stinkin' much.
Mike
Cliff47
Member
I grew up on the BHP design, and the magazine disconnect (it is NOT a safety in the true sense of the word) just seems like a natural way of life. After all, the best safety is the one between your ears (as my Grandfather used to say).
Mad Magyar
Member
I think it's a must for LEO's. If I was placed in the position in handing over my piece to a BG either in compliance or struggle, just a finger push on the mag release would serve it's purpose.
It's all be pretty well covered, but for me personally, expecting my first child, having a mag safety makes a lot of sense.
And it's not just LE's who benefit from a way to defeat a gun grab by the bad guys. Bad guys are employing team tactics more and more so the chances of having several targets, and getting into a grappling situation goes way up. To me, and it's just my opinion, having a way to "turn the gun off" if you sense you are losing a struggle with a BG is a good thing.
Some people get wrapped up in the notion of a high-noon western shoot out where the BG stands 25' way and you duke it out. Internet bravado leads people to think they will cooly plug BG after BG and never let any of them within 10'. The chances of having your gun grabbed are actually pretty high IMO.
And the kid aspect is wise also. While my child will have their hand smacked the first time they grab for one, things can happen in the bink of an eye.
But I do agree that having a mag safety can lead to people getting into the habbit of pulling the trigger when the mag is out. I even caught myself doing it with a Beretta 85 when I first got it.
And it's not just LE's who benefit from a way to defeat a gun grab by the bad guys. Bad guys are employing team tactics more and more so the chances of having several targets, and getting into a grappling situation goes way up. To me, and it's just my opinion, having a way to "turn the gun off" if you sense you are losing a struggle with a BG is a good thing.
Some people get wrapped up in the notion of a high-noon western shoot out where the BG stands 25' way and you duke it out. Internet bravado leads people to think they will cooly plug BG after BG and never let any of them within 10'. The chances of having your gun grabbed are actually pretty high IMO.
And the kid aspect is wise also. While my child will have their hand smacked the first time they grab for one, things can happen in the bink of an eye.
But I do agree that having a mag safety can lead to people getting into the habbit of pulling the trigger when the mag is out. I even caught myself doing it with a Beretta 85 when I first got it.
Serves a completely different purpose. The internal lock is a feature to lock the weapon out completely, the mag disconnect is an automatic safety (at least it's viewed that way) that can be used to quickly make the weapon safe in a gun grab scenario for military and law enforcement professions.
TwitchALot
Member
ArmedBear said:
Ever seen "Lara Croft: Tomb Raider"? That's how he reloads with guns in both hands.
TwitchALot
Member
fastbolt said:
The first time I trained in a mock room (and the first time I've been to a formal shooting school), the instructor raised a target on my left as I was doing a tactical reload (I checked to make sure I was good for a couple seconds, and sure enough, he deliberately raised a target as my full mag was coming up to the gun).
The second I saw the target I dropped my full mag (while putting my support side hand on the grip of the gun, of course) and fired the round I had in the chamber. I certainly didn't hesitate and I certainly wasn't "confused." And again, it was my first time being formally trained in such a manner.
If you are reasonably well-trained, the way you reload should be nearly instinctive. Being my first time at a formal school, I managed to drop my mag and regain my grip and sight picture quickly and efficiently under some degree of duress (the instructor cussing and yelling at me, simulating the attacker) when the threat popped up while I was reloading. I wasn't told that's what I should do if a BG came out while I was reloading nor did I know that was going to happen. It was just instinctive for me to address the threat (which was a bigger priority than reloading) before addressing my reload.
The point is that the problem you mention above is a training problem. I did what I did instinctively, others didn't. But either way, it can be addressed with proper training. Train hard, train often, and train well. Train, train, train. That's the lesson here. If you have a magazine disconnect and get into a ground fight, and you aren't trained to drop that mag, it's not going to do you any good, and it will likely harm you if you need to shoot during a reload. Since I've never been trained to drop my mag when a threat is close (and I suspect many haven't), a magazine disconnect is a liability to me and isn't particularly useful.
For others, like LEO and OCers, again, it may be useful, but ONLY with the proper TRAINING. That's what most stuff always comes back to- proper training. If you train with a mag disconnect safety in a gun and practice dropping your mag when you get to close combat, it may help you. If you don't, you may pay for it, possibility with your life. So again, train hard, train often, and train well.
SimpleIsGood229
Member
Nope. Firearms safety is psychological --NOT mechanical.
A mag disconnect is only something that can go wrong, that offers no benefits.
stevelyn
Member
Perhaps, but none of our training doctrine teaches or even considers mag disconnects as an option during a gun grab attempt. Guns used in LE with mag disconnects are a very small minority.
The focus is on retention and countering a grab attempt using alternate methods and weapons.
This has not been my experience. A minority, perhaps, but that is partly becuase Glock used to be a monolithic piece of market share, with no mag disconnect as an option. But I have seen many guns in LE set up with mag disconnects. Not most, but a sizeable minority.
Mike
DougDubya
Member
Again, tell that to cops who would be corpses if your design philosophy ever became universal doctrine.
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