Magnets better than springs?

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Lookie what i found!!

well i didnt find it, i actually wiki'ed it, but findin stuff takes time and im too lazy;)
"The response to this question is simple and complicated. I like many other people have seen thermometers displaying absurdly high readings right here in Iraq. The problem is that the measuring system used is grossly inacurate. Most thermometers are Bimetallic strips, which are hit and miss at best. Second comes the alcohol thermometer, which suffers from thermal radiation and thus displays much higher temperatures in sunlight. Some people would say they have seen highs up to and over 145 degrees farenheit. Which is amazing considering the widely accepted highest temperature ever was 136 in Libya in 1922. Second went to Death Valley, California with 134 in 1913. In order to get an accurate reading either a complex system of computer sensors is required, or an extremely difficult equation involving exact measurements of water evaporation. Either way you get the most accurate temperatures by simply checking websites like weather.com.
All that said. The short answer - 122 degrees farenheit. With a summer average high of around 110."
cant find any info on car temps, sorry hope that helps
 
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Does it seem as thou Ma duce and Magnetic Magazine seem to be working together? Or is it just me? I smell something.......................
 
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Hmmmm yea we take showers together!:D i found the vid on youtube and posted it here to see what everyone thinks, ive posted crap before at other forumns and it annoys me when people say things without reading prior posts
i think its a neat idea but i also think its cool thats there are people out that are working on this stuff
 
I think it's an interesting idea and would like to get ahold of one and try it out. If I tested them and liked them then I might be interested in selling them.
 
Well, I'm not about to jump on the bandwagon... But, I'm also not usually the guy who goes for any of the "latest and greatest" stuff (be it guns, televisions, cars, etc). When it comes to weapons that my life depends on, I'd much rather have someone else risk their life to work out any and all of the bugs that seem to naturally pop up with new technology. I'll be the guy who picks up the technology ten years from now, once the kinks have been ironed out :)

That said, I still think it is neat to see someone taking an innovative approach to these things. Most of mankind's greatest inventions have come from those folks who decided to think outside of the box. Once upon a time Glocks were laughed at by a lot of folks too (actually, some folks still laugh at them).
 
Posted by ma deuce:
conq and pit bull, i dont know what you guys are smoking, but the laws of physics apply to everything, even springs
Ma,
"Newton's Laws" do not encompass all of the "laws of physics."

If someone wants to begin a debate, with a Professional Engineer, regarding the applicable "laws of physics" dealing with spring design and they mention Newton in a novelette like post, while remaining silent about the applicable laws... They have no idea what they are talking about (with regard to the engineering of springs).



He is also not helping support his position when he deletes comments on his YouTube video from skeptics.
If he were that confident in his design, he would answer all the questions and not hand pick his comments.



.
 
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creep occurs when metals are subjected to both high stresses AND high temps.

The stresses need to be in the upper half of the elastic range...

The temps need to be up to around 1/3 the melting point of the steel... that's 1/3 of 1,200 to 1,500 deg. F ... or 400 to 500 deg. F.

again... creep only happens at high temps...

If a spring is designed properly it will remain well within it's elastic range for the entire range of motion.

this from Pop. Mechanics... reposted on Wikipedia

Contrary to popular belief, springs do not appreciably "creep" or get "tired" with age alone. Spring steel has a very high resistance to creep under normal loads. For instance, in a car engine, valve springs typically undergo about a quarter billion cycles of compression-decompression over the engine's life time and exhibit no noticeable change in length or loss of strength.

I'm not sold that creep is a problem in mag. springs....
 
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American Pit Bull, that was my fault, I tried to reply to your comment, and the tab for reply is right next to delete. I have left all of the comments (negative ones too) up on all of my videos, if you send it again, it WILL be left up regardless of what it says.
And about physics, you can find your proof here:
http://interactagram.com/physics/kinamatics/spring/HookesLaw/
That aside, my magazine using magnets as a power source functions superbly, and even if for arguments sake we say that leaving your magazine loaded doesn't hurt the spring, just cycling it does, then this is still a superior design because cycling has no effect on magnets and will serve the user for a lifetime. Also magnets do not wear regardless of use and you will get the same performance the first time you use it, as you will 50 years from now.
This prototype has been displayed to Police Officers, Soldiers, Marines, and general shooters alike and the feedback has been enormously supportive.
I have done my research and I'm moving forward with this idea.
I am glad to see people debating magazines, it shows that the matter is far from resolved.
 
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Some people would say they have seen highs up to and over 145 degrees farenheit. Which is amazing considering the widely accepted highest temperature ever was 136 in Libya in 1922. Second went to Death Valley, California with 134 in 1913.


From a meteorlogical study:(see http://ggweather.com/heat/)

The atmosphere and the windows of a car are relatively “transparent” to the sun’s shortwave radiation (yellow in figure below) and are warmed little. However this shortwave energy does heat objects that it strikes. For example, a dark dashboard or seat can easily reach temperatures in the range of 180 to over 200 degrees F.
From a medical study: (see http://www.injuryprevention.org/states/la/hotcars/hotcars.htm)

METHODS

Using a Labcraft 227-876 thermometer, we measured the increase in interior temperature of two cars exposed to the sun. Serial readings were taken every 10 minutes from 2:30 PM to 4:00 PM in downtown New Orleans on July 27, 1995. The outside ambient temperature was 93°F at the beginning and end of the testing process. The sky was partly cloudy and the relative humidity was reported by the US Weather Service as 53%. Car #1 was a dark-blue sedan with the windows closed. Car #2 was a light-gray minivan with both of the front windows open approximately 1.5 inches. The thermometer was in direct sunlight in Car #1 but was shaded from direct sunlight in Car #2. The thermometer was placed upon the front car seat to match the likely position of an occupant. The seats in both vehicles were cloth.



RESULTS

Within 20 minutes, readings in both cars exceeded 125°F and reached a maximum stabilized temperature in 40 minutes (Figure). The temperature rise in the first 10-minute interval was more severe for the dark-colored enclosed sedan than for the light-colored minivan. The maximum stabilized temperature was also higher for the dark enclosed sedan (140°F compared to 138°F), which was a temperature rise of over 45°F in less than 1 hour.


It seems to me that a black rifle (AR) would in fact achieve temps in excess of 180 degrees inside of an enclosed vehicle. Now, we know a soldier wouldn't leave his weapon in a hot vehicle :), however should that happen, magnets would be degraded.
 
Questions:

1. What is the relationship with the vendor and "ma deuce"? I am not the only one wondering.

2. Springs do not deteriorate when left in a constant state (loaded, unloaded, partially loaded). Springs wear from use, which means compression and decompression.

3. The vendor writes ... "magnets can began to lose some strength after being heated beyond their curie point (which is around 180 F) but since a person cannot survive at 180 F, this is not a real world limitation." While I tend to agree that a person cannot survive at 180 degrees F (at least for very long) I wholeheartedly disagree that 180 degrees F is not a real world limitation for a firearm, especially one used by soldiers. If I left one of your magazines on the dashboard of my car on a sunny day, I absolutely guarantee you it would reach 180 degrees. What then?

ETA: Wishin beat me to it:

It seems to me that a black rifle (AR) would in fact achieve temps in excess of 180 degrees inside of an enclosed vehicle. Now, we know a soldier wouldn't leave his weapon in a hot vehicle , however should that happen, magnets would be degraded.

While a soldier might not want to leave a weapon in a hot vehicle, weapons and magazines, like all other military supplies, are often stored and transported in harsh conditions. How does one guarantee a magazine was not inadvertently subjected to a temperature of 180F in the shipping process?

4. Magnets, regardless of type, have problems with shock other than breakage. Specifically, they tend to demagnetize. Experiment: Magnetize a screwdriver, then pick up a nail. Take the same magnetized screwdriver and give it a good solid whack on concrete. It's not going to pick up the nail anymore. I'm guessing recoil energy, over time, will weaken your magnets. Have you had a lab analyze fresh magnets and then re-analyze them after 10 or 20 thousand recoil cycles (rounds fired)? Admittedly, this solution might work in a low-recoil firearm, or a firearm with good recoil management like an AR (gas piston). My guess is things would not fare well in a high recoil firearm -- think 50AE Desert Eagles or 12 gauge shotguns with buckshot or slugs.

5. I was able to look into the magazine a few seconds into the video, right around the time you said there were no springs. I saw something that looked very much like a spring. It was several inches long. What was it?

6. How would this system function in a ferrous (magnetic) magazine?

7. How would this system functon with a ferrous (magnetic) firearm? Would the magazine hang up or drop free?

8. The magnets you use are extremely powerful. This is a three-part question with an embedded two part question.

Shipping: I know the US Post Office has shipping regulations for high energy magnets. Is your product capable of being (legally) shipped by the Post Office?

Liability/injury: If I am holding a magazine in my hand and come into contact with a vehicle or large ferrous object, would I become impinged/crushed/pinched (see warning labels that came with your magnets).

Detection (two parts):

I believe satellite technology exists to survey magnetic fields. Would a large military supply vehicle or stationary weapons bunker (purposefully built or expedient) with a large number of magnetic magazines be detected?

If these magazines become commonly used by military forces, could a crafty insurgent develop an IED to trigger based on the presence of a strong magnetic field (aka a soldier)?

Be prepared for most of these questions
if you decide to submit your design for evaluation or seek investors who perform a modicum of due diligence.



Some more information:

q: Do magnets ever lose their magnetism? http://www.physlink.com/Education/AskExperts/ae472.cfm

Also:

Working magnets used in permanent magnet lifting machines typically last about 25 years. Each lift causes deterioration due to the work done by the magnet assembly. The magnets are replaced in these large lifters at that time. In permanent magnet motors, the loss of magnetism due to work is not noticed because the mechanical parts of the motor fail long before any significant deterioration of the magnets.

Stored energy in a magnet can be calculated by measuring the circulating current and using, as example, 25 years time (life
expectancy) for this magnetic current to flow. United States made high grade neodymium magnets store the approximately 7500 watts per
pound for their useful life. The stored energy can be found taking 7500 watts times 25 years equal to about 1.6 million kilowatt hours
per pound.

Assuming coercive force is not exceeded or the magnets are not discharged by other means (see answer to the question "do magnets ever lose their magnetism" above), you can calculate the work done in attraction or repulsion by standard work formulas using path, distance, and force required. This work can then be compare to the stored energy of the magnet and a value for the life expectancy of the magnet system can be calculated.
 
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First, let me say that your idea is really cool, and I wish you well. I think it has potential, and not just in magazine applications. I do want to address one point, though.

cycling has no effect on magnets
Magnetic creep under reverse field does, in fact, exist, and has to be guarded against:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coercivity

In any magnet application, the coercivity must be high enough, or the applied reverse fields low enough, that magnetic creep does not occur, or else the magnet will lose strength (hence the old practice of storing alnico magnets with "keepers" or in reversed pairs). Rare earth magnets (which I assume you are using) have higher coercivities and hence are more resistant to creep (analogous to good spring steel vs. cheap steel), but all magnets will creep at a certain reverse field strength, and that threshold varies with temperature just like it does with steel springs, with the magnet losing all resistance to demagnetization at the Curie temperature.

In a properly designed system, it will not occur, but that does not mean the effect does not exist.
 
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I think it is a cool idea as well. Kudos on the innovative idea. I think it would be fun to play around with one and see how it functions, advantages, shortcomings, etc. Maybe the idea will turn out to be a nifty advancement or stimulate related nifty advancements.
 
Why is it in all of the videos there does appear to be a spring?!
Thorazine, I believe the spring you are seeing is actually a stack of rare earth magnets on a guide rod, unless you are seeing something I'm not. A stack of disk magnets, stacked N to N and S to S, repel each other, making a magnetic spring. This is a proof of concept using a standard mag body.
 
And about physics, you can find your proof here:
http://interactagram.com/physics/kin...ing/HookesLaw/
You're doing it again. Hooke's Law has nothing to do with spring creep or fatigue. The physical property you've been grasping for is the yield point, the deformation limit at which a material will start to deform plastically instead of elastically. In fact, spring creep is essentially defined as something that happens outside the limits of Hooke's law, since the law only describes springs within their elastic ranges.

You have destroyed any shred of credibility you have. It's like any time someone challenges you, you type "spring physics" into Google and just paste one of the results as "proof", yet it's painfully obvious that you have zero understanding of what you're actually yammering about. I doubt you can describe basic spring phenomena like the spring constant without looking them up on wikipedia.

At this point you've used multiple physics laws that have nothing to do with spring creep as "proof" that your magnets are better. It tells me that you really have no clue if magnets are better, but you sure wish someone would give you some money for it anyway.
 
That said, I still think it is neat to see someone taking an innovative approach to these things. Most of mankind's greatest inventions have come from those folks who decided to think outside of the box.

I'm interested in where this may go.

Once upon a time Glocks were laughed at by a lot of folks too (actually, some folks still laugh at them).

I've never laughed at Glocks; I just shake my head and mutter blasphemous. ;)
 
I also think that it is an interesting idea....
My only point is that he should not present it as a solution to a problem that doesn't exist. I wouldn't mention anything about the advantage of not having to rotate out mags. Just market it as a new innovation.

In most cases, failure to feed is caused by the followers not the spring. Hence the advances and reissue of redesigned types of followers.

If he would have just posted that he had a new style of feed system utilizing magnets... I think a lot of people, myself included, would have checked it out and told him that it was a cool idea.... He wouldn't have had a quarter of the skeptics popping in; if he wouldn't have mentioned static failure of springs and then tried to back it up with bad science.. As soon as someone reads that, they forget about the "cool idea" and they focus on the incorrect information.
 
He wouldn't have had a quarter of the skeptics popping in; if he wouldn't have mentioned static failure of springs and then tried to back it up with bad science.. As soon as someone reads that, they forget about the "cool idea" and they focus on the incorrect information.

Not directed at anyone, but I think he would have encountered the resistance. Human nature is opposed to change. Arguments still surface about the fallacies of eight-round 1911 mags.
 
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