Makarov CCW

[YaNi]

I've been looking for another CCW. I was looking at small 9mm's, but they are either more expensive then I want/ can afford (Kahr, Walther), or just not available (Kahr, Kel-tec). I need something thinner than my Glock 19 for business casual (5 days a week/12-14hrs per day...) + summer carry. I have a Thunderwear holster, but the Glock is just too much to conceal with khaki pants and a button up shirt tucked in.

My friend has a FEG PA-63 in 9mm Makarov, and I like the size but the recoil is awful. At our last range outing I fired 150 rounds out of my Glock 19, and could have easily kept firing all day comfortably. He fired around 50 rounds and his hand was red. After searching around on the interwebz it seems that a real Makarov is a fun gun to shoot. So the mak weighs the same as my G19, its 0.25" thinner (similar thickness to the PF-9 or PPS), and rumored to be reliable. Does anyone have any gripes about a mak as a CCW that I'm not aware of?

I been looking around the internet for prices. Why are the Bulgarian and East German Maks selling for more than the Russian ones? I found a Baikal IJ70 Makarov on gunbroker for $240, is that a good price for the pistol and 1 mag?

 

[M2 Carbine]

I'm a big fan of Makarovs (I've got 16). I have a carry holster for the Mak but never use it. It comes down to, I can carry a 45 Kimber Ultra about as easy as a Mak, so I carry the Kimber.

I would have no issues with carrying the Mak if I needed/wanted to.
The Mak was my Wife's carry choice.

The EG Maks are considered the best, so demand the higest price. I rate the Bulgarian and Russian about the same. All are very accurate and reliable.

 

[BHP FAN]

I have both. The Houge hand all slip on grip tamed the little PA 63. I got the Pearce rubber grip for my Bulgarian Makarov, and it sure makes extended firing more comphy than the neat looking milspec red fiberglas grip.

 

[christcorp]

3 things I'd like to comment on:

1) Any of the makarov's; russian, bulg, e.german, or chinese are very good guns. But also, don't discount a CZ-82. It's less expensive than the true makarov, yet it's actually nicer shooting. I carry my cz-82 concealed every day. But if you want thinner, that's cool.

2) You said you're looking for a concealed carry; you like the feel of the PA-63; but you're concerned with the recoil, because after 50 rounds your friend's hand was red. I have a simple question: "HOW MANY ROUNDS DO YOU PLAN ON SHOOTING AT BAD GUYS?" Chances are, the answer will be "0" in your entire life. Does recoil matter? Yes, but if you can shoot a magazine (7 rounds); accurately and comfortably at a target; then what's the problem. When I go to the range to practice, I do sit there and shoot non-stop for 2 hours. I shoot a magazine full. Evaluate my performance, get new targets up, etc... Point is; for self defense, you'll probably never use the gun. If you do, you'll probably shoot 2-3 rounds. If you do shoot more, your brain is going to be so engulfed with stress, fear, shock, etc... You won't feel anything from that gun.

3. Most important thing. For a grand total of $8.00 you can buy a stiffer replacement wolff recoil spring. Also a hammer spring while you're at it. Makes the double action SWEET!!!! And dramatically reduces the recol. The PA-63 is a fantastic gun. Yes, I LOVE my CZ-82. Yes, I LOVE the E. German Makarov. But there are times when the little PA-63 is the perfect weapon. Fits in my front pocket. Fits in an ankle holster when I'm wearing boots.

Think about it.

 

[jonnyc]

I have carried my DDR Mak lots. Great carry guns.

 

[Big Bill]

Think about this:

Performance

9x18mm is ballistically inferior to the 9x19mm Parabellum cartridge. While there are no official SAAMI pressure specs for the 9x18mm cartridge, tests indicate that surplus ammunition develop pressures in the mid 20,000 psi, significantly less than the 35,000 psi or more generated by 9mm Parabellum loads. As such it is designed to be used in low powered blowback semiautomatics, much like the .380 ACP cartridge, rather than locked breech designs required for higher pressure cartridges like the 9 mm Parabellum.

The 9x18mm cartridge is not interchangeable with the more powerful 9 mm Parabellum or 9 mm Largo, and its ballistic performance is much closer to the .380 ACP.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9x18mm_Makarov

 

[skunkbreeder]

i have a bulgarian makarov with plastic grips which i enjoy shooting very much, probably have close to 4,000 rounds ran through it & NEVER had any problems. only complaint is limited availability on ammo (can't just go to wal-mart or other chain sporting goods stores & buy 9X18 ammo)

 

[BHP FAN]

Check the Sportsman's Guide for ammo,also J&G Sales. The PA 63 is a natural in the role,the same light weight and fixed barrel that makes the recoil unpleasant makes it easy to carry,and accurate.

 

[skunkbreeder]

i usually buy from a local wholesale shop, i didn't think about sportsman's guide, thanks bhp fan

 

[christcorp]

Big Bill; may I ask? What is your point??? Are you saying that because the 9mm makarov isn't as powerful as a 9mm luger, that it's not a good self defense and/or carry round?

This argument has been made many times, and there's never any proof. Sorry. I guess, all those people who carry 380's and 32's should just admit that they're going to die. And as you pointed out, the 9mm makarov is more powerful than either of those 2.... Hmmm, that makes no sense.

But if ballistics is all we care about, then the 40sw is more powerful than the 9mm. So I guess the 9mm luger is something I should think about. And the 45acp has much more mass and diameter, so maybe both the 9mm and 40sw aren't good. Well, it looks like it's the good old 357 magnum. It kicks all their butts.

Not dogging you here. It's just that when a person says a caliber is inferior, and that a person should possibly reconsider using it for self defense purposes, then frankly..... They are WRONG!!! Sorry, but that's the truth. And there's an entire eastern european group of countries; and their military; that will agree that the 9mm Makarov is a very effective caliber.

For those who care; ALL HANDGUNS are ballistically inferior for the purpose of self defense. ALL OF THEM. They don't go fast enough to create hydrostatic shock. The average bullet isn't massive enough with it's current velocity to expand; so they go with even lighter bullets. The one and only one reason we have pistols, is because we can't fit a shotgun or rifle in our pocket or without hands. We carry pistols for convenience. No other reason. So, we make up for all of their lack of power; like a rifle or shotgun; by practicing, learning, shot placement, other self defense tools, etc... And those who haven't mastered all that yet, compensate with 15-18 round magazines; because they will probably miss a lot.

The 9mm makarov is probably one of the best self defense calibers there are. Why? It's not too light of a bullet, so it gets more penetration than a 380. It's faster than a 380 and 32, so it expands very well with hollow points. The bullet is a LARGER DIAMETER than the 9mm luger and 380, so it has a larger wound channel. It doesn't kick like a 40sw or 357mag. 95% of any self defense contact is going to be LESS THAN 30 feet. 10 yards with a 9mm makarov is awesome. And when you throw some good hornady hollow points in it; it's excellent.

Oh, and as far the blowback thing goes; there is some truth in that. Except that guns like Hi-Point are BlowBack guns, and they are rated at +P in 9mm luger. And some of the makarov guns like cz-82, are all steel. They are use to shooting very powerful 9mm makarov ammo. The importation just isn't here because of liability factors for those who might put such a round in a P64 polish too many times. But I have been in talks with Buffalo-Bore and Double-Tap. Both companies have plans soon of producing some pretty powerful rounds for the 9mm makarov. Just like they did for the 32acp and 380. With the right powder and bullets, a lot more is possible than believed before.

 

[M2 Carbine]

Does anyone have any gripes about a mak as a CCW that I'm not aware of?

No gripes.

Some opinions.

The stock recoil spring should be replaced with a Wolff 19 lb spring, 21 lb if hot loads are used.
The stronger spring also reduces the felt recoil a bit.

I tried to make a new Bulgarian Mak malfunction through 1,000 rounds. No gun caused malfunctions.


The Maks are accurate.


100 yards. Standing, two hands.

 

[YaNi]

1)I was under the impression that the a) the makarov is more comfortable to shoot than the pa-63 and b) the pa-63 can't fire +p rounds.

2) I quickly ruled out the cz52 and cz82 because they are larger the mak, and I have a Glock that fills that role.

3) If I ever had to pull it out recoil will be the last thing on my mind, however, I don't want a gun that I will never/rarely shoot at the range. I have no problem shooting my father's snub .357's. The PA-63 fires a 9mm makarov (weaker round), and weighs a fair amount, but still manages the harsh recoil of a lightweight pocket gun. If the Mak shoots like the PA-63 I will promptly get rid of it, wasting time and money. I tried a Walther PPS, which is very similar in size to the Mak, and it was very comfortable to shoot. If the mak fills this hole fantastic, otherwise I have to save my pennies for a Walther PPS or Kahr PM9.

4) Is $240 a good price for a Russian Baikal IJ70 Makarov?

 

[Pilot]

I think $200 is a price more in line with what an IJ-70 is worth. Maks are fine to shoot. There size and all steel construction absorb recoil.

 

[christcorp]

YaNI, I am not disputing getting the russian IJ-70. It is a great gun. 3 things. really short here.

1. There is NO SUCH THING at +P ammunition for 9mm makarov. ANY ammo the IJ-70 can shoot, so can the PA-63
2. The CZ-82 is almost identical in size to the Russian/e.german/bulg makarov pistols. Yes, the cz-82 is a different pistol than the makarovs. Same caliber, but built in czech instead of e.germany, bulgy, or russia. But physically, they aren't that much different in size. I have both.
3. $250 for the russian gun is about the average price. It's usually around $250-$300. As high as $350-$400 if it's in exceptional shape. The CZ-82 is in the $200-$250 range; with a $250-$350 for exceptional shape. But most of get surplus CZ in the $200 range and russians in the $300 range. So, your price is in the "Good to Average" price range. There's one for sale where I'm at, it's $300. But it includes 3 magazines (Which are difficult to find) and an original holster. So the $300-$350 for it would be about right.

For $250, I would definitely snag up an IJ-70. Especially if it had 2 magazines. A magazine alone could cost you $30-$40 if you could find them. GO GET IT!!!!!

 

[Norinco982lover]

1) Any of the makarov's; russian, bulg, e.german, or chinese are very good guns. But also, don't discount a CZ-82. It's less expensive than the true makarov, yet it's actually nicer shooting. I carry my cz-82 concealed every day. But if you want thinner, that's cool.

I also carry my CZ82 on occasion (I prefer my XD45C, but I have a supertuck for both it and my CZ82--I use a bersa 380 supertuck works great).

I would say if you are going to go with a Mak for size...why not go even smaller and get a PF9? The Mak is a pretty big gun...yes, it is thinner than a G19 but not by that much.

~Norinco

 

[R3dundantC]

...While there are no official SAAMI pressure specs for the 9x18mm cartridge, tests indicate that surplus ammunition develop pressures in the mid 20,000 psi...

Might be just me, but I still wouldn't want 20,000 pounds of pressure hitting me anywhere.

 

[KBintheSLC]

Might be just me, but I still wouldn't want 20,000 pounds of pressure hitting me anywhere.

It doesn't really work that way... 20k PSI in the chamber does not equate to 20K lb of energy in the bullet. Having said that, there is not a thing wrong with the 9x18 when it comes to ballistic performance. I would feel well armed with a 9x18 Mak.

 

[UranusDestiny]

I picked up a Baikal Makarov for $240 at a gunshow a few weeks ago, with two magazines. I thought it was a pretty good deal, considering the finish was near perfect on mine with a super shiny bore. It disappears when I wear it with an iwb holster. I plan on using it as my CCW once I fill out the paperwork, and I think you'd do pretty good to use one as well.

 

[M2 Carbine]

Is $240 a good price for a Russian Baikal IJ70 Makarov?

Yes, if it is in good condition.
Recently I paid $300 for a new/like new one.
At the last several gun shows there were no Makarovs below $300 and none were in like new condition.

I have three CZ 83s, .32, .380 and 9x18. I also have a CZ82 in 9x18.
The CZ is an excellent gun. IMO, it's not as tough as a MAK. With the 21LB recoil spring I have no problem with shooting 95 grain JHP bullets loaded to 1125 FPS. I would not use this load in my CZ 82 or 83 or P64 and definately not in a PA63.
The CZ82/83 is generally a reliable, accurate gun.

100 yards, standing, two hands. (the misses are shooter caused, not the gun)


.380 CZ83. 52 yards. Standing, two hands, right hand, left hand. A few shooter caused hits outside the 18 inch silhouette.


I also have the PA-63 and three Polish P64 in 9x18.
The PA-63 is accurate and makes a nice carry gun if it will function reliably with JHP, which mine won't.
The gun kicks bad.
Mine happens to be about a foot from my leg right now, acting as a HD hide out gun.

The P64 is reliable and accurate but punishes the hand when firing it. Recently I allowed a man to shoot about 50 rounds through my gun. After a few magazines he was complaining about the kick and his hand was Red.
But he was very impressed with the gun and said he was getting one.
The P64 has a terrible DA trigger which can be much improved with a weaker main/trigger spring.

The P64 gives the impression of being a smaller gun than it is, but it is actually almost the same size as the Makarov.


The P64 is also a accurate gun, considering it is just a small military pistol.
50 yards, standing, two hands. One of my P64s shoots POA, the other two shoot slightly left and right.


P64. 52 yards standing.

 

[christcorp]

M2; you can definitely use the same load in a CZ-82. Matter of fact, that was one of the main reasons the czechs told the russians: "NO THANKS, WE'LL BE OUR OWN VERSION". They pushed even hotter ammo through the CZ-82. It is 100% all steel. It is a much stronger gun than the true Maks.

 

[M2 Carbine]

M2; you can definitely use the same load in a CZ-82. Matter of fact, that was one of the main reasons the czechs told the russians: "NO THANKS, WE'LL BE OUR OWN VERSION". They pushed even hotter ammo through the CZ-82. It is 100% all steel. It is a much stronger gun than the true Maks.

I would not disagree.
I use any factory load in either gun.
I'm just going on the feeling that the CZ isn't as strong.
Not that I'd greatly overload either gun anyhow.

 

[christcorp]

I'd love to get a hold of some of the "True" czech military surplus 9x18. It was 110-115 grain and really hot. I think part of the reason that it's not available is for liability reasons. I'm sure, if a person threw some of this 115 grain, pushing at 1200-1300fps through a P64, it might break their wrist. But that was apparently one reason the czechs decided to build their own gun instead of adopting the makarov. Of course, for logistical reasons, they maintained the caliber.

 

[Steve C]

You have a Glock 19 what do you need a Makarov for? THe Glock is a much better CCW weapon, more reliable, more powerfull, more rounds, just more gun. Spend the money that would go to the Mak and find a good holster, extra mags night sights, and some good police surplus defense ammo and you'll be far ahead.

If you just want a Mak for some cheap shooting and nostalgia then go for it.

 

[M2 Carbine]

115 grain, pushing at 1200-1300fps

I worked up a load using the 95gr JHP for the Mak. At about 1175 FPS I started getting signs of high pressure and backed down to 1,125 fps.

I have a bunch of 115 and 120 gr JHP Silver Bear that do 1,000 fps. I wouldn't shoot them in the PA-63 and the P-64 kicks too bad.

I don't think I'd shoot that 12-1300fps load in a CZ or a Mak.

 

[ezypikns]

I used my Bulgarian Mak for my CHL Qualification.

And I out shot everyone else in the class. The Mak is a great pistol. More accurate than most people's capabilities. It DOES have very small military type sights.

The recoil is a bit snappy, but nothing out of the ordinary.

My Mak isn't my first choice for carry (If I'm going to carry a steel pistol, I'll carry my 1911) but I have carried it, and had complete confidence in it. IMHO the 9x18 (in JHP) is a more than adequate defensive round.