Makarov vs. Kel-Tec P-11

[CZSteve]

Sorry, another this vs. that thread.

Wanting a small carry pistol.
Will want to carry in a 'tuckable' IWB rig come summer time in Texas.
(Jeans/Khakis w/ tucked-in golf style shirt, etc...)

Kinda torn between the Makarov & P-11. Both are inexpensive and relatively good pistols for the money.

Makarov
Pros:
Classic good looking design
Price - aproximately $50.00 less then P-11
Hammer fired (DA/SA)
Bullet-Proof Reliable

P-11
Pros:
9x19 (better ballistics than 9x18)
Thinner across the board. (1" on slide, frame, & grip; Mak is 1" on slide, but wider in grip)
Shorter grip.

I'm more of a traditionalist and like hammer better than striker (however, have never had a striker-fired style in all honesty)
Leaning towards the Mak, but the P-11 did feel very good in my hands and I'm not adversed to doing some of the home smithing I've read about on the Kel-Tec forum.

Any thoughts are welcomed.
Sorry for the long post.

 

[Blackhawk]

The P-11 is hammer fired, not striker fired.

It is, however, DAO, which I greatly prefer in a CCW. Nothing to fumble around with. . . just pull the trigger.

 

[ksnecktieman]

One other thing to consider, is the belt clip available for the Kel tec, with it you can carry IWB and not need a holster. I have one, and I like mine

 

[ChuckB]

Steve- my P11 has been bang-on dependable. It's also light and compact. I second the vote for DAO in a compact carry piece: pull the trigger, it goes "bang". If it doesn't go "bang", just pull the trigger again. Neat.

Chuck

 

[mrapathy2000]

you can use 12 and 15 round smith and wesson magazines in the kel-tec S&W series 69 and 59 magazines. number of accessories for kel-tec. though no threaded barrel for those who are silencer owners. kel-tec p11 can handle +p rounds, conversion to 40S&W(no longer made) and 357sig(availible though not sure if being manufactured). if the mak was in 380 I would say go for it as that is easy to get the 9x18 is bout the same price as 9mm though you wont be able to get it as easy as 9mm or 380. get both imo they dont cost that much.

 

[cigarman]

I have a p-11, a P-11 with .40 and .357 Sig conversion slides, a P-32 and over a dozen maks (Bulgies, EGs, Russkie commercial & military and a Miltex.) (Lots of others including an airweight in 38 special and Manhurin etc etc etc)

The Keltecs are all fluffed and buffed and I haven't had a ftf or fte. The .40 is awesome for its weight. I have Hogue grips and a trigger shoe on it, and S&W .40 mags and it is really sweet.

However, I generally carry a P-32 and/or a PA-63 (or R-61). If I want firepower I carry the P-40.

It all depends on what you want. Borrow a pistol from someone and carry it around the house for a day. Take it to the range and shoot it. You will find out quickly what is the best for you.

I like light and compact. Your results may vary.

BTW, I prefer the 9X18 in the mak and the PA-63. More firepower and just as easy to get as the .380, IMHO.

have fun.

 

[alamo]

I have both but prefer the KT when I carry something that size. The Mak is just too heavy for me for daily carry. Both are great pistols.

 

[PCRCCW]

I have both and carry both. It depends on which pants/holster fit the occasion better. Both are pocket guns.

Shoot well..............

 

[SirVette]

Any thoughts are welcomed.

The Makarov is a better shooter & has a proper barrel length for the cartridge. The 9s are comprimised in a very short barrel.
The FEG that cigarman mentioned is also a very good choice & assume reliable which it is in 380.

 

[David4516]

Another vote for the Makarov. I'm a big Mak fan, and my Makarov is my primary carry gun. Some say it's too heavy, but it doesn't seem too bad to me.

Another reason I like the Mak more than the P-11 is the trigger pull. I HATE DAO triggers. Thats one of the big reason I got a beretta Jetfire instead of a KelTec P32. The KelTec shoots a bigger bullet, but it isn't as easy to shoot. I figure a hit with at .25 is better than a miss with a .32, and I think that same argument applys to your Mak vs P-11 situation...

 

[Longbow]

The Makarov is a better shooter & has a proper barrel length for the cartridge. The 9s are comprimised in a very short barrel

Actually 9mm's doesn't lose much velocity (thus, energy) when the barrels get shorter compared to other calibers, as Gun's and Ammo magazine tests have proven some years back.

BTT, the P11 being a 9mm, will offer better ammo selection and availability. It can hold more rounds if you use S&W 6906/5906 auto pistol mags, it can be accessorized (although I prefer stock guns for carry i.e. no mods), its lighter by a bunch than the Mak, its smaller than the Mak, Its rated for +p.....
The trigger pull might be a little better on the Mak, but keep in mind that this guns are not for target shooting, its more of an "in your face" kind of gun.
I have one with close to 5K rounds throught it now, and still hasn't skipped a beat.
My choice for you is obvious by now..

 

[dogma]

BTT, the P11 being a 9mm, will offer better ammo selection and availability. It can hold more rounds if you use S&W 6906/5906 auto pistol mags, it can be accessorized (although I prefer stock guns for carry i.e. no mods), its lighter by a bunch than the Mak, its smaller than the Mak, Its rated for +p.....
The trigger pull might be a little better on the Mak, but keep in mind that this guns are not for target shooting

I used to carry a P11, and with 11 rounds of 9mm it does not feel quite so light, especially in a pocket. The trigger pull on my East German Mak is not just a little better than my stock or fluffed n' buffed p11 , it is a whole lot better. Smooth double action, and crisp, light single action pull (but with a lot of take up). It was a little hard to get used to the different single/double action trigger pulls of the Mak, but it allows me to be more accurate and faster shooting than I am with the kel-tec. There was one make of ammo that would not extract reliably in the p11, elderado starfires
I believe, but that could have been limp wristing on my part I suppose. My p11 was not very fun to shoot, not that is a prime consideration for many. The Mak. accurate, and fun to shoot with the cheap ammo that is readily available . I tend to practice much more with guns I like to shoot,so I do not feel too under gunned with nine 9X18 verses eleven 9X19.

Plus, the Mak. is pretty!

 

[444]

Well, the Kel-Tec is smaller and packs a bigger cartridge. I would like to tell you that is the way to go, but my Kel-Tec P11 is totally unreliable. After it's last trip back to the factory it won't fire two consecutive rounds without a malfunction.
Personally, my choice for a small carry handgun is a revolver.

 

[David4516]

Welcome to the board dogma.

" trigger pull on my East German Mak is not just a little better than my stock or fluffed n' buffed p11 , it is a whole lot better"

I totally agree. KelTec triggers are terrible...

I think that, while the 9X18 isn't as good as 9X19, the quality of the Makarov pistol makes up for the differance in firepower. The Mak will be faster on follow up shots as well...

 

[SirVette]

Longbow

Actually, you should see if they even tested 9mm in 3"! Probably not. Here's some no's.

9x18mm Makarov Ammunition Average Velocity (ft/sec)
LVE 115-grain JHP...................... 1025
Corbon 95-grain JHP ................. 1100
from http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/makarov.htm

9 mm American Eagle 115gr. FMJ
kahr Mk9 3"............................... 1065
For comparison:
Taurus PT-99 ............................. 1217
from http://www.f-r-i.com/vel.htm

Barrel length is important.

 

[CZSteve]

Thanks SirVette (and all)

Good point about barrel length.

BTW: Sog is doing there 12 days of Christmas program.
Dec. 16 the Bulgy Mak will be $115.00 and Dec. 10 will be a 'wild-card' day; meaning any sale price will be honored for any special on that day.

Have a local FFL that only charges $15.00.
Going to get the Mak.

 

[PCRCCW]

Just a note.....

9x18mm Makarov Ammunition Average Velocity (ft/sec)
LVE 115-grain JHP...................... 1025
Corbon 95-grain JHP ................. 1100
from http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/makarov.htm

Sir Stephen Camp is a stellar guy...but even he admits he wouldnt carry LVE..the stuff, from my own experience, his and most who use it, would say it SUCKS! With an ES of 100 or so...its not CCW ammo.
Hell its not even range ammo.............

The 9mm still packs the punch even from a shorter barrel..your comparing the stoutest Mak ammo made to Am Eagle target stuff? Corbon 115's from my Kahr 3 1/2" barrel were still well over the 1250 mark and have ALOT more energy than Mak ammo does.

9 mm American Eagle 115gr. FMJ
kahr Mk9 3"............................... 1065
For comparison:
Taurus PT-99 ............................. 1217

I just thought it was worth noting......I still carry my Mak and DONT feel undergunned.

Shoot well

 

[444]

115 grain Corbon gives me 1266 fps out of my Kel Tec P11 (1354 out of my Ruger P89, and 1463 out of a 16" AR15).

 

[DougB]

I own several Kel-Tecs, including a P11, and several Makarovs. I like them all. If the P-11 had a standard DS/SA trigger, I'd like it more. But one potential advantage the Kel-Tec has is that you can get a hard chromed barrel, slide, and takedown pin for very little extra (I think it's still just $20 to excahange them directly from Kel-Tec if you buy the blued P11). I've done this "hard chrome upgrade" on all my Kel-Tecs. That would make the Kel-Tec a lot less prone to rust or have significant finish wear when carried where you may sweat on it. For close range self defense, I'd pick the extra capacity and power of the Kel-Tec. That said, the Maks are more fun to shoot, and I think they are okay for self defense as well.

Doug

 

[Snowdog]

Why oh why do folks insist on comparing one caliber in its hottest offering against another in its most anemic?

If someone's going to offer the ballistics of a 9x18 in the extremely-warm Corbon loading, compare it to the 9x19 in Corbon as well (not some mild target ammunition).




(Sorry for the rant, but I see this tactic used so often it disturbs me)

[Edit - Seems PCRCCW beat me to it]

 

[Walt Sherrill]

The MAK is a great gun -- I've got one.

But I prefer to have 11 or 16 9mm +P rounds to 9 of the hotest 9x18 rounds.

I carried a P-11 for several years. The trigger isn't a Single Action 1911, but its as good as many revolvers -- some of which are touted here for concealed carry.

(I now carry a CZ-75B Compact...)

 

[Longbow]

If someone's going to offer the ballistics of a 9x18 in the extremely-warm Corbon loading, compare it to the 9x19 in Corbon as well (not some mild target ammunition).

Good point!

 

[sm]

I can only share my experience in regard to the Ketec P-11. I guess you might say I got mine for T&E , as my gunsmith buddy suggested me and few others "wring them out". Mine has been 100% reliable.

I'm also in a hot humid enviroment, due to my schedule the Keltec fits a "niche" when I don't use my preferred choice of 1911 style or K frame.

I also use in down on the farm, out fishing, and I CCW even when I hunt...fits the bill nicely for me, and the small critters I have taken. Even hunting, the to and fro to me it makes sense to CCW ...2 legged predators do frequent all kinds of places. I've exposed mine to all sorts of rain, mud sand, and such and with its design functions in all environs.

I never seen to be at the right place and time to shoot a Mak. You people and Mr. Camp's reports really have my interest piqued. I prefer blue metal guns...and whomever keeps showing off their wood grips...ain't helping
I like blue and wood.

I tend to buy for platform then caliber. I prefer the 1911 style and BHP , on wheels I like K frames. But I learned on DAO revolvers so the Keltec -granted doesn't have the best trigger, mine has been smoothed and is better than some , even better than some DA revos , especially some "lesser known, lesser quality " revos.

I shoot a lot of 45 ACP and 9mm in semis, so another reason for me the Keltec was ammo .

Then again blue metal and wood pictures, inexpensive ammo as Mr. Camp and others refer to...ain't helping.

 

[hnm201]

DAO, which I greatly prefer in a CCW. Nothing to fumble around with. . . just pull the trigger.

The "recommended" way to carry a Mak is with the hammer down and the saftey off. The makarov is da/sa and its saftey functions as a decocker (though it also locks the slide) and puts an additional block in front of the hammer. That block is there only to block the hammer when the safety's decocking function is used.

When the Mak's hammer is down it cannot move forward unless the trigger is pulled to the rear. Therefore many mak devotees prefer to use the safety to decock and then switch back it to the fire position, giving you a DA first shot and subsequent SA shots, just like a SigSauer. So, carry your mak with the hammer down and the saftey off and you won't have to remember to "fumble" with it (though, as 1911 fans will note, the mak's safety is activated in the proper direction - up = ON, down = off).

Regarding the hammer and safety. The mak, unlike the P-11, does not have a firing pin return spring. The firing pin just floats and rests agains the primer when the gun is muzzle down! However, the firing pin alone does not have enough mass to detonate the primer and the hammer cannot apply it's mass and force to it unless the trigger is pulled.

The P-11 has a firing pin tension spring, which keeps the firing pin off of the primer. However, it's hammer RESTS against the firing pin, and can add its mass to the pin. This combination may result in a drop fire if the gun is dropped on its muzzle.

Please see the drop fire tests conducted by a the helpful & wize YZGuy on his website, http://www.1bad69.com/keltec/droptest.htm (I swear, it's not an "adult" site - I think the name refers to a car or something).

I own both a Makarov and a P-11 and I'll always have them. I recommend that you get both, eventually.

9x18 ammo is cheap and plentiful if you buy it by the case mail order, which is the only way to do it. Believe me, it will save you money. Check ammo deals at Makarov.com. With the mak, you can afford to practice with what you carry!

 

[hnm201]

P-11
Pros:
9x19 (better ballistics than 9x18)
Thinner across the board. (1" on slide, frame, & grip; Mak is 1" on slide, but wider in grip)
Shorter grip.

Yes, the P-11 has a shorter grip, which greatly aids in concealment in some carry methods. However, the Mak is not thicker than 1" in the grip, not necessarily. I belive that you may be thinking of the aftermarket grips by Pearce. They are nice and comfortable and a great product for the price but they are NOT for concealed carry. For CCDW, go with the original star grips, or best yet, the East German Grips, which you can occasionally find online. i bought mine on eBay. You want the grips WITHOUT the thumbrest. You can also get thin wooden grips made. I'll post some comparison pics later.