Makarov or not

[DBHVette]

Hello everybody. I'm new here and am searching for info on a pistol I bought years ago at a gun show. It was suppose to be a 9mm Makarov High Cap holding 10 rd. When I went to my CCW class the instructor said it was a CZ82. It has no maker marks or anything on it except a serial number that starts with RT. I have been looking everywhere trying to make sure what type of pistol it is and where it was made. Anything you might be able to lead me to or a link would be greatly appreciated. Thanks,
Dave

 

[x2501]

Google

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CZ_82

 

[samuelcmm]

I have never seen a CZ 82 with a safety on the slide

 

[Furncliff]

Looks like a Makrov PM to me. Unless the sights where changed that's a commercial version made by the Russians.

Here's a bunch of photos. Notice the different sights on some pistols.

https://www.google.com/search?q=makarov+pm+commercial&espv=2&biw=1643&bih=928&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&sqi=2&ved=0ahUKEwi3-JPsgNPMAhUp4YMKHRkkCq8QsAQIIg


Here's mine, it's one that was made in Bulgaria.

 

[jmace57]

Definitely a Makarov.

 

[AZAndy]

Huh. I didn't know they came in 10-round. The standard magazine holds eight. That's definitely a Mak, though, and with that rear sight I'm thinking Russian. Here's my Russian for comparison:

 

[Dr.Rob]

There were indeed 10 and 12 shot Makarovs. They are the PMM model (pistol, makarov modernized) the adjustable sight means it's a commercial gun. 8 round mags should still work in your pistol.

Yours might have a fluted chamber. Most were made in Russia at Izmezh and branded Baikal for export.

 

[Dr.Rob]

Real hicap mags can run $70 or more, promag made a few 10 rounders as well.

 

[guyfromohio]

Instructors....everyone's an expert....

 

[DBHVette]

Mine looks identical to yours. The slide release, the safety and the rear sight. I see your Mak has an AO for the beginning of the serial number where mine has an RTO4317.I havent been able to find that RT in any database on Makarov PM's. Thank you for your response. I appreciate that.
Dave

 

[DBHVette]

Makarov

Thank you everybody that answered my thread.I think we decided it was a true Makarov PMM. I now would like to find out why I can't find the serial number in any Makarov database. Thanks again.
Dave

 

[MedWheeler]

Part or all of the serial number may have been added by the importer. There is no "R" in the Cyrillic alphabet used in Russia. If I'm right, then that would explain the lack of matching information at Makarov.com.

Import rules require that importers add a serial number to any gun that either lacks one, or has one that contains any letters not used here (Roman letters and Arabic numerals.)

Somehow, my Bulgarian got here with only the maker's number, which contains two Cyrillic characters and five numerals.

 

[lsudave]

Yeah, I have one of the hi-cap Makarovs, with a couple of 10 rd promags. Mine was made by Izmesh (Imez).

As stated, the importer restamped them with new serial numbers.

 

[Ignition Override]

DBHVette:
Did you also check the Makarov forum on Gunboards?
Their members taught me key facts about, and various details on distinguishing between my Bulgy and pair of "East Germans".

And it's nice that magazines are interchangeable, both 9x18 and .380, between the Bulgy, "EGs", and Russian IZH. Should also work in a PRC Makarov.
Not PR California, the other PRC.

 

[Tallball]

Here is mine. It's just the plain old import version: chambered in 380acp, adjustable sights, an eight round magazine. It has gone bang for me every single time for 25 years and seems easily good for another 25. I really like tough old service pistols like these.

 

[lincen]

Most of the Russian commercial Makarovs seem to have 1991-1993 as their year of manufacture. They originally came with a small manual and the date of completion or final inspection was hand written on the last page. The importation of Russian made handguns was banned in 1994....I think.

 

[PabloJ]

The problem with Makarov is just about any sample in very good condition seems to have asking price of $350 or more. For $400 I can get brand new Slovakian Grand Power 9x19 with beautiful rotating barrel and excellent double action trigger pull. Cabela's has P64s for $224, but who wants 20lb+ DA trigger pull. I should mentioned that both p64 and Russian PM share common lineage from Walther PPK. When Russians annexed Baltic states they seized large number of PP 7,65mm pistols which NKVD personnel used to shoot prisoners in back of heads. Best example of their dreadful exploits was murder of thousands of Polish officers. This was first large scale war crime on European continent in WWII. Apparently "Kolya" was so impressed with PPK they simplified the design and called it PM.

 

[stonecutter2]

Definitely a Makarov.

And definitely not a CZ-82.

 

[akodo]

Not a CZ-82 I agree.

What markings are on the other side of the gun? That should clear it up.

Note, the Mak is a relatively simple gun design, simple to manufacture. This is one of the reasons the soviets selected it. There were official factories in Russia, East Germany, Bulgaria and China. I know you can find cheap knock-offs of 1911s, seems to me the same places could churn out copies of the Makarov too. If something about it looked a little 'odd' to your instructor, enough for him to question if it was a real Makarov, it could be because he's only ever seen PM not PMM, or he is used to seeing Russian Made ones and yours is Chinese or something. OR it could be that it is a little off because it is a copy made in the third world somewhere and some of the details are wrong.

 

[AlfonsDeWolf]

Mo info....


http://www.chuckhawks.com/baikal_IJ-70_syn.htm

http://www.makarov.com/makfaq.html

 

[joneb]

Post # 4 is a PM this was the Soviet military side arm, 8 rnd mag. chambered in 9 x 18 Makarov.
Post #6 looks like a IJ-70 Russian commercial available in 9 x 18 Mak or .380 acp. single or double stack.
I would get the PM, Bulgarians are good, there will be a circle with a 10 in it behind the safety/de-cocker.

 

[Monac]

DBHVette, thanks for putting up a picture. Your gun, as stonecutter-82 says, is NOT a CZ-82. It is a version of the Makarov made in Russia for export to the USA back in the 1990s. Something political happened that cut off the import of Russian pistols into the US shortly thereafter, so Makarovs like yours are not all that common.

If your gun's magazine holds ten rounds, it is even less common. This was a later development of the commercial Makarov. Unfortunately, as far as I can remember, its reputation for reliability was not as good as that of the original 8-shot Makarov, because the magazine was a recent development, not as thoroughly proven as the original magazine. However, this is the kind of thing that varies from gun to gun, so you might very well have no problems with yours.

It will, as Dr. Rob says, make magazines more expensive and harder to find, though, should you want spares.

 

[Paladin7]

DBHVette, you are in luck and have a genuine Makarov Pistol, not a CZ-82. I have an East German Makarov and a CZ-82. Whereas, they both shoot the 9x18 Makarov Cartridge, they are very different animals. You ended up with the better one, IMNSHO.

Your Makarov looks like a Russian Commercial Model with adjustable sights. There is a wealth of information on the Makarov on this site... http://makarov.com/ which should help you ID exactly what you have.

The Makarov Pistol is a marvel of engineering with very few parts and a high degree of accuracy and reliability. I think of it as the Glock of its day. I'm sure you will enjoy that pistol very much. If you are into pistol design, do some research on the Makarov and I think you will agree, it was very well designed. For example, it contains a captive extractor, so it will function reliably even with sub-standard Combloc ammo. Nice touch.

The CZ-82 was made by CZ has higher capacity, but is a Rube Goldberg design with many internal parts. It is a good pistol but is not as refined of a design as the original Makarov.

 

[Baron_Null]

If something about it looked a little 'odd' to your instructor, enough for him to question if it was a real Makarov, it could be because he's only ever seen PM not PMM, or he is used to seeing Russian Made ones and yours is Chinese or something. OR it could be that it is a little off because it is a copy made in the third world somewhere and some of the details are wrong.

If the instructor misidentified a Makarov variant so badly that he thought it was a CZ82, I wouldn't put too much faith in how much he knows Makarovs. My guess is that he thought the only 9x18 gun with a double stack magazine was the 82 since he doesn't have much experience with them.