Man Charged with Failing to Aid Officer

[JohnBT]

I have a question? Do I have an obligation to run into a burning building, and I mean a rip-roaring all-consuming burning building, in my shorts and flip-flops to try and save a fireman?

If not, what's the difference between this situation and one involving a police officer and some meth/crack/PCP addict who weighs 300 pounds? How about 2 or 3 dopers ganging up on one officer?

It's not about fear, it's about a reasonable chance of survival.

Let's say the doper has taken the officer's sidearm and the officer commands me to "Save me. Get it away from him." If I have a gun, fine. If I don't I guess I'd have to find some rocks or something to throw. Boy, that's a dumb idea. Maybe a quick prayer would do.

Just thinking out loud.

John

 

[Zach S]

Anyone still care to answer to the charge that if we don't have the training to help cops, we don't have the training to carry firearms?

The handgun and (sometimes laughable) training they get for the use of that handgun isnt the only thing they go on duty with.

In addition to a pistol, officers are provided with body armor, latex/vinyl gloves, OC, batons and/or tasers, cuffs, flashlights, a radio, and probably more that I'm forgetting. They're also taught holds, H2H, cuffing and forced compliance techniques which are more usefull than a handgun for a typical day on duty.

Out of all those things, R.J. Citizen will probably just have a flashlight, and he probably doesnt carry it on his person. Although I have been shown (not taught) some cuffing and FC techniques. In most of these cases I was the demonstration dummy, and I got to try it on someone else right after I was uncuffed and able to wipe the dirt off my shirt and the side of my face. I'm also pretty handy with a 6 D cell maglight, but its not something I can keep handy, unless I'm standing beside my unlocked truck.

I also find it kind of ironic how you would single out the object on the officer's belt that probably gets used the least. To be perfectly honest, when I made my earlier post the handgun and the (sometimes laughable) training they get for the use of their handgun didnt even come to mind, since, according to the officers I know, it rarely comes out of the holster and is almost never fired on duty.

 

[Flyboy]

Anyone still care to answer to the charge that if we don't have the training to help cops, we don't have the training to carry firearms?

I'll take a stab at it.

I carry a firearm to defend myself (and potentially others) in life-or-death situations. If it doesn't reach the standard of "clear and present danger," or "imminent danger of grievous bodily harm," it's not a lethal force situation, and the gun isn't a factor. As the lawyer who taught my concealed carry class said, "if you touch your gun, somebody has to die." His statement is a little bit oversimplified, but not much: you can't touch your gun until you are legally (and morally) authorized to take a life (he dismissed the idea of the BG surrendering as soon as he sees your gun as being the result of too slow a draw, but we all understood that such a case would allow for holding him at gunpoint without shooting; either way, lethal force was justifiable at the time the GG reached for his sidearm). Since my gun is only a factor when lethal force is justifiable, it's fairly easy for me to know when I can use it: George Will put it best when he said that "[r]ape, robbery, and attempted murder are not typically actions rife with ambiguity or subtlety, requiring special powers of observation and great book-learning to discern."

Mr. Will said that in the article in which he pointed out that the errant shoot rate (shooting somebody unjustifiably) for police was more than five times that for concealed carry permitholders. Believe it or not, it wasn't cop-bashing: he went on to explain that police, by the nature of their jobs and duties, often arrive well after the situation has started, and therefore have to operate on partial information, whereas the innocent victim of mugging/kidnapping/rape/attempted murder will know what's going on from the start. In addition to being the reason police more often shoot the wrong person than private citizens acting in their own defense, it also shows why police need more training than private citizens: they are called upon to act in a much wider range of circumstances, and need to be able to make good decisions with less-than-good information.

In the context of this law, it'd be easy to decide to assist an officer if I saw him walk up to somebody and the perp started a fight; it'd be much harder if the officer was summoned to the scene after the situation began unfolding, particularly if I had seen it unfold, and I thought the officer was arresting the wrong person. That's not an indictment of the officer, mind you, just a realization that mistakes happen more frequently with your intel isn't complete. If I wasn't sure what was going on, I would want that additional training to help me make my decision.

Further, my training to carry a concealed weapon is training to do one specific thing: neutralize a threat. I don't have to make arrests; I don't even have to try to take him alive. "Front sight, press" is a pretty simple thing to do. Arresting somebody--particularly somebody who's resisting, as we can assume to be the case--is an entirely different set of skills, requiring a whole lot more training, particularly with regard to what level of force is "reasonable" to effect the arrest.

In short, the police officer and the private citizen carrying a defensive weapon are two totally different animals; the former has duties considerably greater than the latter, and needs special training to execute those duties properly. Asking somebody without that training--me, for instance--to execute those duties by making an arrest is a good way to cause a tragedy: if one guy who's (presumably) trained in hand-to-hand combat and submission holds can't keep the guy under control, the only thing I have to offer is seventeen rounds of 230gr Speer Gold Dot. Not much force continuum there.

 

[Warren]

So if I saw this going on and the cop asks me to help I have to jump in? On his side?

If he got a beat down for this he would have deserved it.

click


Or assuming this (click) is true and turned into a struggle am I to support the trooper?


Why should I assume the cop is in the right?


Bumping it up a notch. (Yes, I know it is highly unlikely. Just asking a hypothetical.) What if an IRS guy asks for my help, what obligation do I have to help him collect a tax or sieze property or arrest someone?

Or a BATFer, am I to be his pawn if he asks?

Or an SS agent says "save the POTUS jump in front of the gun!" (Yes, I know it is highly unlikely. Just asking a hypothetical.) Am I obligated to do that? Even if so there is zero chance of it happening.


Recently there was something that happened near the place I lived, I wanted some information on what happened and if everything was all right. If he had said no to the info for privacy reasons that would have been fine. But he didn't do that. What I got was a "It ain't your problem" brush off from the guy.

So you think I'm going to help him out if he needs it?

I've dealt with similar rude cops (and bureaucrats) so why should I put myself out for the likes of them?

 

[Flyboy]

Wait a tic--I'll post this in a new thread, but the lawyer in that second link is Penny Dean. Ms. Dean is a noted firearms attorney in New Hampshire, and represented (among other people) Michael Pelletier (mvpel) after he was illegally harassed (perhaps "assaulted" is a better word) for carrying a sidearm openly.

Hmmmm....

 

[Jammer Six]

Jammer Six, if it's not offensive to them, per my own eyeball experience, why is it so offensive to you?

First of all, what makes you think I'm one of you? Why do you assume that I'm not one of "them"? Because I own guns? Because I speak fluent English? Because I live in Washington? What? What in the world makes you think you and I have anything in common, or that I would consider Mexicans as "them"?

Second, there are many words, that, in spite of the fact that I'm not Black, Chinese, Jewish or Iranian doesn't mean that the various pejoratives that apply to those races or creeds don't offend me. I have manners. They are offensive terms.

Third, fish don't see water. If you're not one of "them", like the slave owners, you're not qualified to say what is offensive to "them". Just like you're not qualifed to say what offends me and what doesn't.

And finally, it's not the words. This is the point you won't get.

If it's not offensive within our own local culture, where is it written that outsiders can come in and dictate what is or is not politically correct?

A large part of it was written at the Appomatix Courthouse. More was written on VE Day. More of it was written today, in Bhagdad.

And I'm writing still more of it, right now. You're reading it.

Even without Appomatix, I've written it, and you've read it. Were I alone in my words, were I the first to write them, my point would be no less valid.

And again, I'm not an outsider. I'm a Senior Member. We're not in Texas. I am a full-fledged member of this community, and am meeting my responsibility as such.

We should have a Constitutional Right to be unoffended by other cultures' manners, morals and mores?

I'm not questioning your "right" to offend people. I'm telling you that doing so demonstrates clearly who you are, what you believe, what you think of others, and what kind of man you are. It doesn't really matter to me if you hear me or not. I am, in fact, quite sure that you are the one person reading this who won't get my main point. I'm participating in this discussion because I know that we're not holding it alone in a room in Texas, or in a drag bar on Castro Street. We're on The High Road, and my words aren't really intended for you.

You aren't the first person I've dealt with who is perfectly comfortable using words like "wetback", and you won't be the last. People like that are as common as grass.

I'm simply holding up your words, pointing to them, and amplifying what you say, so that everyone here knows what kind of man is serving as a moderator on an insignificant gun board called The High Road.

I invite you to continue defending your use of the term "wetback".

 

[Taurus 66]

From Here2Learn's last post - Looks like that officer needed no help from Joe Citizen.

 

[Remington788]

After reading this thread it appears that most of the people that say they would help have this opinion. "To H*ll with the consequences, helping the officer is the right thing to do" ( while I agree, obviously you have never been sued before, even though the law says you are not liable, you will be sued.)
The people saying "not my problem and not my job" are not selfish, they just are smart enough to not want the hassle of a lawsuit because in todays society, you can sue anyone for anything, and you will likely win.


Jammer Six, if you are offended by the what someone says and continue to make a big deal out of it, then you are part of the problem with our country today. Political Correctness is just plan crazy and will be the downfall of this country if we do not get it under control. If Art says "wetback" and it offends you, then don't talk to him ever again. Problem solved as far as it concerns you. Trying to force him to conform to your beliefs makes you no better than the most racist person in the world.

(Just to let you know, I am not calling Art a racist. I have been known to use certain incorrect names when discribing certain segments of our society because lets face it, regardless of race, color or creed, there are a lot of scumbags in the world)

 

[GRB]

Yeah, I see it now from your point of view Glenn. Hell ... I like the way you think. Now if you would excuse me, I'm gonna take the kids out and down to the corner for some ice cream. Who knows ... if we're fortunate we will get to see quite the action as some lone officer struggles to apprehend a suspect all by himself *WITHOUT BACK UP. Oh we'll just jump right in. Susie can afford to give up an eye and some facial skin. Johnny's only 8. He can have a broken arm and if he wants, lose his front teeth. My insurance will cover it. And as for me, I'll take the brunt of the attack beit a gun or knife wound. It's all good.

Taurus 66,

Read what you wrote, does that make you proud of yourself? Does it make you feel like the big smart man? If it does give you any sense of satisfaction maybe you had best have a talk with your children. Why not sit down with your 8 year old some day and explain a situation to him wherein a person is being accosted by a bad guy, and the person is pleading with you for help. Ask your 8 year old what he thinks you should do, should you turn tail, ignore the situation and run, or should you try your best to help. Make sure to ask without giving leading hints as to how you want your child to answer. Make sure to tell your child to give the answer that would be the best thing to do. You may find some wisdom coming out of the mouths of babes.

Then again I doubt you will do so because if what you explained in your post above is how you want to raise your kids: by being sarcastic, by allowing a police officer (or any person) to be beaten, to be injured when you could have helped, to possibly be killed while you do nothing except ignore it and make excuses, that is fine by me. They are your children to raise as you see fit, just little reflections of you.

As for me, I don't have a wise guy answer like yours. I have a logical one. If I have young children with me and, if I can secure them safely out of harm's way, I would do so, then I would help physically. If I could not do that, I would at least take out my cell phone and call 911. I would also try to get others to help the officer. You do what you see as right, I'll do it the way I was raised to know is the right way.

You are, in my estimation, looking at things from inside a very small box by making excuses and refusing to help an innocent. When one of your kids is getting kidnapped or molested by a peodophile, should anyone them? If it is on the street and a pedestrian see this, should the pedestrian who has no training help your child? If it is in the schoolyard, should the teacher who has no such training help? If it is a neighbor, who has no such trainining, should he help your child? Judging by your attitude I would guess not. I would guess that they should all use the same excuses you and others have used and just say, not my job! If your child decides to become a police officer for a career (you may be very surprised, it could happen) and if someone is attacking your son and trying to get his gun to possibly shoot him with it, should someone help your son? Would you expect someone to do so, or would you just have excuses for them as you have for yourself?

Of course, I would help someone. I would even help you or any other complete stranger. Heck, even if I knew it was actually you who needed help, and who apaprently loves snippy and sarcastic comebacks, I would do my best if a bad guy was attacking you. I can only imagine though that if you are ever accosted and need help maybe you will find yourself surrounded by people with a mind like yours. It just seems there are so many with, what is in my opionion, that apathetic frame of mind today. In that case, I hope you at least go out fighting instead of whimpering and wondering why no one is helping you.

Go ahead post away with another wise guy comeback, no more from me. I'll read what you and others say but I don't come here to have wise arse replies from the likes of you.

Sincerely with regrets that this could not be
kept as a more repsectable discussion,
Glenn B

 

[Double Maduro]

Remington788,

I also find racial slurs and perjoritives offensive. Would you be saying the same things if the term used was the "N" word? This was a common term used by most of the country not that long ago. Hell I used it myself, it's the way I was raised. That doesn't make it right.

I used all the excuses, "they call each other that" so it must be ok.

"They laugh when we call them that, they think it's funny too."

Maybe they laughed to keep from killing the stupid racist that didn't know he was demeaning their entire race.

It wasn't until I got away from home and got to meet people from many cultures, races and parts of the world, that my mind started to change. I saw the cute names we call people from other cultures to be hurtful, petty, mean and just down right stupid.

It is prejudice, and shouldn't be tolerated wherever it is encountered.

It also shows the world how small a person truly is.

DM

 

[Double Maduro]

JohnBT,

I have a question? Do I have an obligation to run into a burning building, and I mean a rip-roaring all-consuming burning building, in my shorts and flip-flops to try and save a fireman?

You have an obligation to do what you can. If you can save the fireman without dieing yourself you should. If it is a baby and you can save it, you should.

Now everyone has limitations. Some people are deathly afraid of fire, I am not too fond of it, been through a house fire, some are afraid of heights. Some people are physicaly disabled.

The answer is that you must do at least whatever you can that will allow you to look at yourself in the mirror.

The only person that can determine that is you.

DM

 

[Remington788]

Double Maduro

Did I say it was right?

No.

I said that if someone says something that offends you, do not have anything else to do with that person. Trying to force your will on someone else is the problem. Everyone (in this country) is entitled to their own opinion and views. It is called FREEDOM.

If you like being told how to think, I suggest moving, maybe North Korea.

 

[Double Maduro]

Remington788,


Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's almost as bright as saying "whatever". "If you don't like it move to north Korea", my how smart.

I refuse to let injustice and prejudice go unchallenged.

I don't care how you think, it's obvious that some don't think much at all.

I do care how you speak, I care because it is wrong to demean a race of people to make yourself feel better. It is wrong to let people get away with it unchallenged.

How about the people who are dropping in here for the first time, are they going to think we feel that racism is accepted here?

What about the teenager who dropped in to see what the "High Road" is all about, are we to let him think that racism and prejudice is acceptable.

I don't think so. And if you can't see that by not saying anything, that you are condoning it, you aren't as smart as I thought you were.

Since you don't seem to think that people should be treated with respect, I think that you should be the one to move.

Did I say it was right?

By not challenging it, that is exactly what you said.

DM

 

[Taurus 66]

Then again I doubt you will do so because if what you explained in your post above is how you want to raise your kids: by being sarcastic, by allowing a police officer (or any person) to be beaten, to be injured when you could have helped, to possibly be killed while you do nothing except ignore it and make excuses, that is fine by me. They are your children to raise as you see fit, just little reflections of you.

Glenn,

Say whatever you want about me raising my kids. All that's doing is trying to change the argument. If you're a cop and you see a BG who looks like he could give you quite the match, call for another person "trained" to handle such a potentially violent situation. This person I mention is known as a "police officer". An officer #1 should never allow him/herself to ever be placed in a one on one situation to get assaulted. END OF STORY HERE ALREADY. Glenn, instead of piling up nonsense upon my shoulders, why not check a previous post of mine when I said something about "radios". The reason I'm sarcastic at times is because some people are just so dense! It's my little way of trying to wake up some "less fortunates", but I know I already may be too late.

 

[Taurus 66]

Again, WHAT AM I SUPPOSED TO DO??? Everyone's lawsuit happy today!!!

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/19/national/19ranch.html

There's one (not related to the topic) that makes me really sick! two low-life mexicans sue AND WIN against a true patriot rancher?? I don't get it!!! I tell you what Glenn Bartley, you fix the problem with these lawyers always on the side of the lowest of the low, instead of defending who's in the right, AND WINNING nonetheless, that alone would be about 25-30% of my problem right there cleared up. I could then assist a lawman easier than I could right now. There are a few more things to make it even easier yet for me to help out an LEO in a tough situation, but since the one I mentioned already has no solution, why bother with the rest?

 

[Remington788]

Double Maduro

Where to begin.

As a member of this board, you are probably the kind of person who believes that you have the right to own any gun you want and that you should be allowed to carry a gun with you where ever you want. "It's my right" is what you would say to anyone who questions your beliefs.

Yet you have the audacity to try and tell someone else how to think. (which is what you are trying to do when you tell them what they can and can not say) What gives you the right to say what is acceptable and what is not.

Are you my parents? (The people responsible for how a person is raised and what their beliefs are, not society, the media or the government.)

NO.

Therefore you have no right to tell me what is and is not acceptable.

I just don't understand people like you who want the world to bow to their wishes. You want everthing your way because everyone else is wrong and you deserve it.

By the way, respect should be earned because of who you are, not what you are.

 

[Art Eatman]

Jammer Six and Double Maduro:

I don't get bent out of shape when I hear blacks refer to whites as "Ofay" (Pig Latin for foe) or "Honky" or "Whitebread". If it's not directed at me as a pejorative, it's unimportant. Sure, it's racist, but I feel no compulsion to jump up and reply in kind.

When an "illegal alien from Mexico" refers to himself as a wetback (In border Tex-Mex, mojado, pronounced moja'o), why is it so horrible that I do so? He doesn't see the word as derogatory, which is exactly why I don't.

For either of you to drag to drag deep-south nomenclature of blacks into the discussion is erroneous. Red herring and all that malargument.

Your opinion is as irrelevant as mine, on this particular subject. Everyone has opinions, along with another accoutrement.

However, on this particular unimportant gun board I have the right to judge as to bad language and personal attacks. The boss set it up that way.

, Art

 

[Double Maduro]

Remington788,

Therefore you have no right to tell me what is and is not acceptable.

Actually, I have every right to tell you what is acceptable to me. You have the right to disregard what I say.

I never told you how to think, I may have the opinion that some of your thoughts are wrong, but I would never presume to tell you that you can't think them.

If you can't see that demeening people, for their race or the country where they or their parents were born, is wrong, then I don't know what to say to you.

I believe differently than you. I believe that we should stand up to bigots and racists, not hide our heads in the sand. In the real world, face to face, I call people on this and will do no less on the internet.

I am sorry that you cannot or willnot see how harmful bigotry and prejudice is. You must not, if you did you would speak out against it. I bet you speak up about it when you see signs saying that "America is the Devil" or when people call for "death to all Americans". Maybe not, but then you see things in a different way, to you it is all about personal freedom.

Well the personal freedom to be a bigot has led to lynchings, church bombings, rapes and murders and cross burnings. It has led to people being drug behind pickup trucks with chains around their necks. It has led to the murder of millions of Jews, Gypsys, Catholics, Kurds and countless others.

Calling someone names alienates them from society, it is the first step in making them less than you, less than human.

I am sorry that some lack the will to stand up for their convictions.

Oh, by the way, if people hadn't stood up for what they thought was right we would still be singing "God Save the Queen".

DM

 

[Taurus 66]

Double Maduro and Remington788, could you two please take this inane ongoing back and forthy to a PM or email box near you? Thanks

 

[Double Maduro]

Art Eatman,

Art, I lived in Texas for 3 years, sure it was San Antonio in the 60's, I have also lived in California, and now in Oregon. My hispanic friends may call each other wetback, my Italian friends may call each other --well you get the idea. But I gaurantee you that if I called them by those same names it would hurt our friendships.

I don't care that you are a moderator, it doesn't give you the right to use racist terms. I don't care if your daddy and grand daddy did it, it isn't right.

This is still the "High Road" isn't it?

This is my last post on this subject, if you don't see that racism, bigotry, and prejudice is wrong, I certainly am not going to be able to change your mind.

DM

 

[Jammer Six]

I don't get bent out of shape when I hear blacks refer to whites as "Ofay" (Pig Latin for foe) or "Honky" or "Whitebread". If it's not directed at me as a pejorative, it's unimportant. Sure, it's racist, but I feel no compulsion to jump up and reply in kind.

I'm sorry, did you just attempt to justify racist speech on the basis of the fact they were aimed at someone else? Are you saying that because they're not aimed at YOU, it's okay, and that you don't see the rather obvious hole in that logic?

The terms you mention are racist, and offensive. That they go from other-than-white towards white changes nothing.

I want to check, because what I just heard you say is rather amazing, and I want to be certain that I understand your statement before I dare draw a conclusion from it: are you saying that terms that are clearly racist about your race don't offend you as long as they are aimed at someone else?

For roughly the fifth time, it doesn't matter that they don't offend you, or that they don't offend rural Texans. It offends both other members of this community and myself, and we're telling you so. You are demonstrating your values, and I (we) are pointing them out. As if anyone could miss them...

And finally, no one here has "replied in kind". No one here has used a derogatory term for your race. False charge.

When an "illegal alien from Mexico" refers to himself as a wetback (In border Tex-Mex, mojado, pronounced moja'o), why is it so horrible that I do so? He doesn't see the word as derogatory, which is exactly why I don't.

Yes, you've made that very clear. I believe that everyone here understands your position perfectly. You don't see the harm.

For either of you to drag to drag deep-south nomenclature of blacks into the discussion is erroneous. Red herring and all that malargument.

On the contrary, it is exactly on point.

The point is, as you've just demonstrated, that you don't see the connection, and you don't understand what the problem is.

 

[Double Maduro]

Jammer,

-Major Charles L. Kelly, callsign "Dustoff

Was this a relative?

DM

 

[Remington788]

Taurus 66

Sorry, this will be my last post on this subject.


Double Maduro

Actually, I have every right to tell you what is acceptable to me. You have the right to disregard what I say

As you have the right to disregard what I say.

I never told you how to think, I may have the opinion that some of your thoughts are wrong, but I would never presume to tell you that you can't think them

But you have by telling me I can not say them. Its freedom of SPEECH, not freedom of thought.

If you can't see that demeening people, for their race or the country where they or their parents were born, is wrong, then I don't know what to say to you.

I never said it was not demeening or wrong, just that it is not in your authority to force someone not to.

to you it is all about personal freedom.

As it should be to everyone, you start trading a little freedom for security... you know the rest.

Well the personal freedom to be a bigot has led to lynchings, church bombings, rapes and murders and cross burnings

Why don't you just say "it's for the children". Thats the arguement for gun control so why not speech control.

Calling someone names alienates them from society, it is the first step in making them less than you, less than human.

Names are just words and words only have power over you if you let them.


My whole point to this conversation is that nobody has the right to control anybody else. You are not God, Allah, Budda or any other deity and therefore you have no control over anyone. Just because something offends you doesn't give you the right to judge people which is what you are doing. Think about it, someone says a racialy derogative word, and you call him a racist. You just called him a name that most likely offends him and in doing so just committed the same act that you were trying to stop. So if we take your arguement that people should not say hurtfull things to other people, then you can't call someone a racist or a bigot.

Do you see what I am saying?

Again, let me say this, I do not condon racism, nor do I condem someone for saying racist comments. I believe in freedom of speech, freedom of religion, and the right to keep and bear arms. If you have a problem with that, well, it is a free country, just don't talk to me and I won't talk to you.

(Again, this is my last post on this subject since it is a little OT)

 

[Jammer Six]

Was this a relative?

No, no relation.

I like to quote heroes. I have about six favorites that I use for .sigs.

Major Kelly is one of them.

Others:

"A bunch of us went down to Gettysburg.
Some of us didn't come back.
If you weren't there, you'll never understand." -Unknown Infantryman

"C'mon, you sons of bitches, you want to live forever?"
-Sergeant Major Dan Daly

"We're going to rush the hijackers."
-Jeremy Glick, aboard United Airlines flight 93, September 11, 2001

"Let's roll!"
-Todd Beamer, aboard United Airlines flight 93, September 11, 2001

"I know we're going to die. There's three of us who are going to do something about it."
-Tom Burnett, aboard United Airlines flight 93, September 11, 2001

 

[Double Maduro]

Thanks, inspirational all.

The last three make me believe there is still hope for us.

DM