Man Charged with Failing to Aid Officer

[El Rojo]

Asking somebody without that training--me, for instance--to execute those duties by making an arrest is a good way to cause a tragedy: if one guy who's (presumably) trained in hand-to-hand combat and submission holds can't keep the guy under control, the only thing I have to offer is seventeen rounds of 230gr Speer Gold Dot.

Good point. Since you are not properly trained in hand to hand submissions and defense, you are a walking liability if you have a firearm. Police have superior training in every aspect so if it is difficult for them to have weapons retention, it must be even more so for the common cowboy concealed weapon permit holder. Since police receive more training and are more proficient, it really is a liability to let the common citizen carry around a firearm. I mean since the police receive all of that training, they are capable of carrying a weapon on their person. If the common citizen can't effect an arrest or even assist in one, they most certainly don't have the training to retain a weapon in public. Concealed weapon holders are going to have their weapons taken away from them and used against them. I for one am not willing to take that risk in public especially with children around. I have enough to worry about without having to worry about some ill-trained cowboy with a pistol getting it taken away by a thug and getting shot.

Since cops receive superior training and are higher class citizens that are capable of arresting criminals, they should be able to carry guns. Since mere citizens don't have the skill or ability to help arrest people, they most certainly should be able to carry firearms. The police have the training, citizens simply don't.

Or citizens can kick people in the teeth or sit on them just as well as cops can and there is no need for an upper and lower class of criminal arresting citizens. Those same citizens that are more than capable of helping out a cop in need should also be able to help out others in need and even be trusted to carry firearms in public. You can't have it both ways. Either you have the ability as a regular citizen to help out and be trusted in public or you are a second class citizen who is incapable of protecting yourself and others and relegate those duties to the higher class citizens known as the police elite. Thats the way I see it.

The people saying "not my problem and not my job" are not selfish, they just are smart enough to not want the hassle of a lawsuit because in todays society, you can sue anyone for anything, and you will likely win.

I am going to call you on this. It amazes me the irrational fear of lawsuits that paralyze our good citizens to do nothing when action is required. If I could sue anyone for just about anything and win, why would I want to work? Why not just go out and sue everyone for everything? I could stick a severed finger in my Wendy's chili and get millions of dollars. Oh wait, that didn't work.

I personally am not afraid of a lawsuit from some scumbag that is wrestling with a cop on the ground. If it is feasible, I am going to go over there and kick the crap out of the guy. If and when the guy files a civil suit, how long is it going to take for the jury to listen to the police officer state that I helped subdue the two time felon and save the officers life and then say, "no basis for lawsuit"? Not long.

I don't care if the officer is making a false arrest, I don't care if the guy has good lawyers. The law is clearly on my side. I saw an officer in trouble, I reacted to save the officer and preserve peace and order. If the cop was making a false arrest, that is the cop's fault and he gets to foot the bill for that. Any half way decent lawyer will be able to prove I didn't know it was a false arrest and I was just acting to preserve peace and order by assisting what I thought was an officer in need. Then using the logic that lawyers are money winning machines and I can sue anyone for anything, I sue the officer for my emotional distress for kicking the teeth in on an innocent citizen.

I think it is pretty clear. You can live in fear of lawyers and phoney lawsuits or you can take action and help out someone in need. As is evident, too many people in society talk about the willingness to stand idly by and not "risk" a lawsuit at the expense of injury or death to others. Not too impressive if you ask me. Our only hope is when the crap really hits the fan, these people will take action and do the right thing.

And give me a break, no one is advocating you run into a burning building and kill yourself to save someone. That is just plain stupid. Use your discretion and do what you can. Just do something other than hiding behind lame excuses like you don't know how to kick someone's teeth in, put your knee and body weight into a struggling suspect, or you are afraid of lawyers and highly unlikely lawsuits.

 

[Jammer Six]

Freedom of speech is a right citizens have against the government.

Even then, all rights are limited.

There is no right to be free of the consequences of your speech, whether those consequences are damages or public ridicule.

No one has sought to limit anyone's speech. No one in this discussion has that ability, other than Eatman.

No one here will ever convince him.

We are merely pointing out the errors in his logic, his manners, and his assumptions.

 

[Chrontius]

I weigh a hundred and thirty pounds. The most help I could provide is to stay out of the officer's way.

Second best, I go find a crowd of frat boys with more balls than sense.

Third, I grab a large blunt object and hope that the cops have good lawyers for their insta-deputized minions.

These will be followed in about that order, until I get my CCW permit. Then, I'll keep doing what I can, which still won't be much in an 'arrest the bad guy' scenario.

 

[Taurus 66]

Man oh Man ... this crud about citizens required to assist law officers is getting so darn high, I need higher boots ... or a ladder And crud smells bad. It attracts flies

It may be a law, but even if it is, I may do the "bare minimum" to help you out. If you want all out physical help wrestling like we're a couple of pro wrestlers in a tag team match, lotsa luck to you buddy. Since it's confirmed cops don't know how to use their portables, perhaps they could dial on their cell phone. Yeah, just go to the "B" section on your phone book for "Back up". "B" is 2 letters before "D" which holds the number to "Duncan Donuts".

 

[dustind]

If an officer asked me for help and he or she was after someone like a car jacker I would do what I could to help. What would he expect a normal person to do to a person that is flailing their arms on the ground though? Grabbing one of the bad guy's limbs may help, but it could really get you hurt and may not help the situation. I would assume that attacking the perp would get me charged with a crime, but I could be wrong. Another problem is that if I did end up having to fight the perp about all I could do is threaten to kill him/her, shoot to wound him/her, or actually kill him/her.

I am willing to risk my life (and my wallet) to help someone. I have risked some pretty serious injuries helping someone before. Even if I do not know the person I would have to give them the benefit of the doubt.

If the officer was just trying to make an arrest and was not in any danger I would have to be reasonably sure that he or she was after a "real" criminal, and not after someone for a victimless crime.

(c) A person commanded to aid a peace officer shall not be civilly liable for any reasonable conduct in aid of the officer.

That law is no guarantee that you will not get sued or charged with something. What normal person knows what the law considers reasonable?

I also want to jump in with everyone and say that it is 100% BS that the police are not legally obligated to help me while I must help them under penalty of law. How do they expect the average citizen to know the law pertaining to helping the police, as well as all of the relevant laws and guidelines that go with police work? I guess it is not the politicians butt that could be put into a sling, so they do not care. No one has ever accused a politician of over thinking some piece of legislation.

You can not really compare self defense with helping the police with police work. Self defense is easy. If someone is trying to harm me I can stop them. "It is better to be tried by twelve than carried by six" covers many instances for self defense, but not too many for police work. Training for CCW is also much easier and shorter. Most people can defend themselves or their family without having to know too many skills or laws but trying to help someone wrestle with someone on the ground takes more skill and ability.

I don't trust news papers as far as I can throw them, but Skinner seems like a good samaritan. He did help change a tire. If he later did not help the officer he probably thought the officer was ok or did not realize who the officer was talking to.

Doesn't federal law, that members are so fond of quoting here at THR compel involuntary servitude if called? Do you think you should have the option of not reporting were the president to call out the militia? Doesn't the militia act require you to serve, and fight and die if necessary? Aren't you all members of the unorganized militia by federal statute?

I am against involuntary servitude under all conditions. I thought the original idea behind the militia (way back when, probably before the law or even the constitution went into effect) was that if you called them up they might either...

A: Answer the call and help you out.
B: Ignore or refuse the call.
C: Show up, but join and fight along side the threat that you called them to deal with.

 

[Turkey Creek]

Seems to me that the help no help responses are mostly decided by the chances of ending up personally in court- does this say anything about the sad state of affairs in our beloved land?- living in rural Missouri I know my leo's if not by name at least by sight and if one of them asked for my assistance I would help- first, familiarity with the leo brings the situation to a more personal level of action- second, my chances of getting sued successfully, if at all, in my county are zero for any actions on my part short of me doing something really stupid in my assistance, ie bashing the perp over the noggin with a tire iron more than once- just another reason I stay out of urban areas as much as possible-

 

[Art Eatman]

Texas law strongly favors the one whom a policeman calls upon for help. Absent truly negligent stupidity, it's "ally-ally-in-free" as far as civil suits.

Art

 

[El Rojo]

Ok Taurus we get it. Every cop has the luxury of calling for back up and any cop that is ever caught in a fluid situation where they don't have time for back up and must handle a situation right then and there just isn't using their heads and they deserve to die. We get it. I take it you are not in law enforcement as your perceptions of the availabilty of back up are extremely limited. Again, sometimes you have to take action sooner than later. Cops don't have luxury of sitting back and watching everything unfold like our self-centered THR members. Sometimes you have to act, even when the deck isn't stacked in your favor.

What cracks me up is that people are still basing these decisions off of the fear of lawsuits even though the law says you won't be liable and common sense just tells you that if you help a cop bring in a bad guy, no one is going to charge you with anything. Also, these criminals generally don't have millions of dollars laying about to sue some joe citizen that legally aided a police officer aprehend them. Yet the big L word rules the day. Everyone is afraid of any possiblity of a lawsuit. My advice to you, never leave the house and build a big enough fence no one ever wants to come over your house. That way you can further minimize your risk of a lawsuit. :banghead:

Either your actions are legal, common sensical, and viewed as reasonable to a jury of your peers or they are not. I guess if I did things outside of the law I would be scared of lawsuits too. Since I don't, I don't fear them. If someone tries to sue me, so be it, we will go to court and I will win. They sure as hell aren't going to scare me into submission. Really what is the difference between the state telling you you have to help a police officer and having no liberty and being so scared of lawsuits you also live in bondage because you are so scared of government sponsored litigation you still don't have a choice? Live free or die! Lawsuits be damned.

 

[JohnBT]

DM - I agree that I should do what I am able to do to help the fireman in my example. I also agree that I should do what I am able to do to help the police officer in the original example. The difference in the two situations is that the law being discussed REQUIRES that assistance be provided to the officer under attack with no stipulations or limits on how much help can be commanded/required or consideration of the ability of the person.

To certain other members - I'll be sure to tell my 83-year-old father that you think he's some kind of second class citizen, and probably shouldn't carry a gun, because he isn't as agile as he was during his 4+ years in the Pacific during WWII and his years as Virginia Trooper. I can tell you right now what he's going to say to tell you.

John

 

[Correia]

Okay, this isn't my particular forum, but everybody needs to calm down.

And before I say my opinion here (again) let me just clarify that I have come to the aid of an officer, and it wasn't for a fist fight, but rather I thought I was going to have to shoot a meth head. So yes, I would, and have gotten involved to help somebody in need.

But having it be a legal requirement is silly. Having a punishment because a regular untrained, unprepared citizen lacks the ability, or courage to get involved is asinine.

The only regular folks who are going to be worth a damn are the ones who step up and volunteer to help when asked.

We have tons of situations where soldiers and cops haven't had the courage to take action. And these are people who are trained, supposedly hardened, and mentally prepared for action. How are we supposed to take Average Joe and command him to take action? For all you know he has no skills, training, and is a complete pacifistic coward. Sure you can ask, but if he doesn't step up, what good is he anyway?

Those who will help, will do so. I brought up lawsuits because of excessive force use, not because I lack reading comprehension (thanks for pointing that out El Rojo) but because every jurisdiction is different. Just because Illinois has this doesn't mean that Utah does. And once again, just because I will win doesn't mean that I can't be sued. I spend about half of every CCW class I teach talking about legal use of force. Anybody can be sued.

And once again, I have stepped up to help, and I wasn't worried about being sued, but I was ready to plug a guy to keep a complete stranger cop from getting hurt. I have no bitterness against rank and file cops, none of this us vs. them nonsense here. But just from a purely tactical standpoint, ordering an untrained individual into a wrestling match with a charged up suspect is not the smartest thing to do. Asking for help and having somebody with some ability or skill volunteer to come to your aid is smarter. Now penalizing the first person just strikes me as evil, spiteful, and does nothing but drives a deeper wedge between law enforcement and regular people.

 

[El Rojo]

Now penalizing the first person just strikes me as evil, spiteful, and does nothing but drives a deeper wedge between law enforcement and regular people.

Which makes me wonder if we received all of the story. Cops are surely human and can be as spiteful as anyone else. However, this guy did help them change a tire. He sure was a nice helpful person then. A man on his way to the store decides to just stop and help a tire. Then he forgets something at home and decides to go back and suddenly sees a cop wrestling with the people he just helped change a tire who just so happened to be car theives? Could it be this guy was related in some way and the only way the cops could hook him was for this miniscule law hidden deap in the law books of IL?

 

[Double Maduro]

JohnBT,

DM - I agree that I should do what I am able to do to help the fireman in my example. I also agree that I should do what I am able to do to help the police officer in the original example. The difference in the two situations is that the law being discussed REQUIRES that assistance be provided to the officer under attack with no stipulations or limits on how much help can be commanded/required or consideration of the ability of the person.

We are in agreement, I said in an earlier post that I personally would help, but I wasn't sure about being required to. This puts a responsibility on the citizens to provide something they may not be able to provide.

DM

 

[Taurus 66]

Ok Taurus we get it. Every cop has the luxury of calling for back up and any cop that is ever caught in a fluid situation where they don't have time for back up and must handle a situation right then and there just isn't using their heads and they deserve to die.

I never said anyone deserves to die, but you just did.

We get it. I take it you are not in law enforcement as your perceptions of the availabilty of back up are extremely limited.

If you need back up, wait until it arrives. Don't go rushing in like a fool! You aren't Nash Bridges or Walker Texas Ranger where you can just run into any "fluid situation" (as you put it), and try apprehending one, two, three BGs all by yourself. So with let's say three BGs and one LEO (you) nearby but not necessarily right on scene. If back up is 7-10 minutes away, you wouldn't wait, but instead you'd pull Joe Citizen into the middle of your fracas with these dudes?? Is poor old Joe without a firearm? Would you give him one?

Cops don't have luxury of sitting back and watching everything unfold like our self-centered THR members. Sometimes you have to act, even when the deck isn't stacked in your favor.

OK, You nearly have me convinced I should jump in and assist an officer in need, but your shot at THR members in general was cheap.

A hypothetical:

A lone deputy pulls over a car in front of my house. Inside are 4 BGs. All 4 quickly exit the vehicle and open fire on the deputy, pinning him down behind his patrol car. YOU KNOW I'm going to come to the cop's aid, and not necessarily because it's the law, or even because it's the right thing to do. I'm going to do it to clock some shooting time, and it'll be legal. GOD I'd sure love a good gun fight.

"What ya shooting officer?"

"40 S&W"

"Hold on. I'll bring you a few boxes."

 

[BostonGeorge]

So Art, what do the guinneas, *******, and kikes like to be called in Texas?

 

[Jeff White]

I think that's enough........Jeff