Man Charged With Murder In Home Shooting Case

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guys, i think what's important is that laws should give the benefit of doubt to the homeowner, but that is not a license to kill.

offhand, i'd think in the VAST majority of home invasions, the home owner is not expecting it, has no idea who the criminals are (at the time), and has no way of knowing their intentions.

the fact that there were recent burglaries that didn't end in murder doesn't mean the next one won't. it doesn't mean a reasonable person shouldn't be afraid for their life or the safety of their family, just because some half-value knucklehead probably only wants to steal something they can pawn for drug money.

so the laws should give the resident/victim a fairly wide degree of latitude to deal with the situation in a way that minimizes the impact to their lifestyle. and if something bad happens to the intruder, I'm not going to lose a wink over it.

but clearly, that is not a license to bait and ambush knuckleheads, or administer 'finishing shots' to incapacitated burglers, alter evidence, etc.

i happen to think most of the laws are reasonable even if the justice system is impossibly corrupt and unfair to everyone involved. so the danger here is that through continued bad behavior, victims becoming criminals, the good guys lose the legal rights/privileges we have above, and we revert back to "duty to retreat" and repeal CD laws.

i hate to keep bringing up these threads, but it seems imperative to educate as many as possible. I'd encourage everyone to read the stickies in S&T by kleenbore and Frank, etc. I'd go so far as to say it would be cool if we could band together for some activism and produce some public service commercials that explain it.
 
guys, i think what's important is that laws should give the benefit of doubt to the homeowner, but that is not a license to kill.

offhand, i'd think in the VAST majority of home invasions, the home owner is not expecting it, has no idea who the criminals are (at the time), and has no way of knowing their intentions.

the fact that there were recent burglaries that didn't end in murder doesn't mean the next one won't. it doesn't mean a reasonable person shouldn't be afraid for their life or the safety of their family, just because some half-value knucklehead probably only wants to steal something they can pawn for drug money.

so the laws should give the resident/victim a fairly wide degree of latitude to deal with the situation in a way that minimizes the impact to their lifestyle. and if something bad happens to the intruder, I'm not going to lose a wink over it.

but clearly, that is not a license to bait and ambush knuckleheads, or administer 'finishing shots' to incapacitated burglers, alter evidence, etc.

i happen to think most of the laws are reasonable even if the justice system is impossibly corrupt and unfair to everyone involved. so the danger here is that through continued bad behavior, victims becoming criminals, the good guys lose the legal rights/privileges we have above, and we revert back to "duty to retreat" and repeal CD laws.

i hate to keep bringing up these threads, but it seems imperative to educate as many as possible. I'd encourage everyone to read the stickies in S&T by kleenbore and Frank, etc. I'd go so far as to say it would be cool if we could band together for some activism and produce some public service commercials that explain it.

Great post, and I agree. I think one thing that often gets lost in cases like these is the impact it has on our rights to self defense. Perception is something that is easy to change. I don't see how anyone can defend the actions in these two cases as something we should find acceptable. When we rush to judgement and defend these people, with or without all of the facts, we make it appear that we are all willing to commit these same acts. That has a negative impact on the perception many have about self defense, because they were wrong.

If someone enters my home illegally, I want to be worried about one thing, and that's defending my home. I don't want to have to concern myself with what other people might think about my actions. That's the road I think we're heading down, unfortunately, if some continue to condone these types of reactions.
 
In my lifetime i've been in two genuine home invasion shoots. Was not charged either time. All the stuff in my house is not worth my killing someone over. You cannot set a trap, bait it, kill someone and then call it self defense.

Some folks on this board still do not get it and probably never will.

Would a moderator please close this thread.
 
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I don't agree with setting up a trap to put yourself in a situation just so you can shoot someone but I don't feel sorry for the thief.
He got what he deserved. Yet I do agree The homeowner could have just approached the thief with his gun drawn and made him get on the ground until police arrived or he could have just scared the kid and maybe that would be a lesson learned. Kids do stupid things so there is no need to kill unless its a life or death situation.

Yet people should not forget that sometimes you get off easy and sometimes you don't. Don't be stupid, don't be a thief. The kid would still be alive today if he hadn't been trying to steal. The kid put himself in a dangerous situation and paid the price.
 
^^^^Exactly what Sam just said.
Leaving the garage door open and planting valuables to lure and trap a burglar and not even for the reason of having them turned into the authorities but specifically to shoot them is premeditated MURDER. It is scary and shocking what some of you are saying. There is a MASSIVE difference between home defense and what this man did.

Like most people here I am 100% for home and self defense and the freedoms granted us by the Constitution. This man's life was not in danger in any way. People like him give us all a bad name and definitely needs to have the book thrown at him. It sickens me that he will drag good laws like "Stand Your Ground" and "Castle Doctrine" through the mud and put such laws in jeopardy for us non-murderous law abiding citizens who may actually need those laws in justifiable defence. Hang this guy high and leave him there.
 
I agree. Trying to entice trap a burger who then makes you fear for your life is one thing. But trying to entice and trap one for the premeditated purpose of killing is entirely different.

Mike
 
alsaqr said:
All the stuff in my house is not worth my killing someone over.

Not everyone feels the same way you do. Ref Texas laws on deadly force in defense of property.

alsaqr said:
Some folks on this board still do not get it and probably never will.

What "it" are you referring to?

alsaqr said:
Would a moderator please close this thread.

Why are you afraid to discuss differences in viewpoints on the use of deadly force?
 
Why are you afraid to discuss differences in viewpoints on the use of deadly force?

i'm not afraid to discuss difference in view points with any reasonable person.

IMO: anyone who condones setting a trap to invite an intruder, kills an intruder and then claims self defense is not reasonable. Anyone who advocates killing a intruder to protect his "stuff" is not reasonable. i really don't care what TX law says on the matter.
 
I can't fault the system for holding people criminally liable for taking a life when unnecessary. It just seems to me that cases such as this are treated exactly as if the person just randomly walked up to a stranger and shot them. I don't think that's right.
 
That is essentially the definition of ambush. Youre lying in wait for someone to move into your line of fire.
Not by a long shot. You are staying in a position from which you can defend yourself, should it become necessary.

Your mindset doesn't change what the tactic actually is. You can be praying that you don't have to shoot someone (as I assure you I will be doing if I'm ever put in that situation) but it doesn't change the fact that the method you're using to protect yourself is essentially a very simple ambush.

I know youre not baiting the home invader into the area, but getting into your "safe place", waiting there, and then shooting anyone who enters the door way still seems like its setting up an ambush. Even if it's goal is defensive in nature, you still have a funnel (doorway/hallway/stairs), a "X" (again, your doorway, hallway, or stairs), and you are shooting from concealment and are using the element of surprise.

Not to be adversarial, but if holing up in a room and waiting for a bad guy to come in isn't an ambush, what is it? Does it change if your family is in a room behind you and you are covering the only entrance of a stairway or hallway?

Do you propose then that we have to be actively clearing our house in order to not be prosecuted for murder?
No.

This comment was tongue-in-cheek and was not meant to be taken seriously. I had assumed that everyone understood that its a very bad idea to go clearing your own house, especially if you're on your own.

Don't get me wrong, im not trying to defend this guy and there are certainly people who take it to the extreme,
It would seem that way, and we need to avoid dong that.

But if someone leaves a garage door open, places valuables inside to attract criminals, sets up detection devices, and then goes outside for the purpose of shooting into the open door at someone inside, that someone is likely to be charged with murder.

That is what seems to have happened here.


Well I'm sorry you think I'm defending the guy. I didn't see that detail when I read the article, which is probably due to me reading/posting from a phone. It is VERY likely that I accidentally skipped over it.

If that's a correct characterization of what happened, then yeah he went beyond just defending himself.
 
No one is afraid to discuss different viewpoints. What is scary though is the acceptance of the devaluing of a human life and the quasi support of this premeditated act of murder. Would you still have this guys back if they planted the purse at the end of the driveway and gunned down whoever picked it up? Seriously it's ridiculous to say stupid stuff like "well he got what he deserved". Really for stealing? We've devalued human life that much even on THR, that really is a sad day. I bet there's quite a few people that would be more upset with someone poaching than they are over this. Pretty messed up.
 
45_auto said:
alsaqr said:
All the stuff in my house is not worth my killing someone over.

Not everyone feels the same way you do. Ref Texas laws on deadly force in defense of property.
Aside from the fact that the case being discussed in this thread isn't in Texas, and while Texas law is very broad, it does not make your home a "free fire zone." One's right under Texas law to use lethal force to defend property is still subject to a number of very specific requirements. See this post written by a Texas lawyer regarding Texas use of force law:
Bartholomew Roberts said:
Recently, we had another discussion on use of lethal force to defend property. As usual, the "you can shoot them in Texas!" comment came up. Rather than continue to derail that thread with a discussion of Texas-specific law (since the person asking the question was from Illinois), I thought I would start a separate thread to specifically address Texas law.

First, a little history is in order. I've always wondered about the Defense of Property statutes in Texas since they are more aggressive than most every other state in the union. As it turns out, Texas used to have some fairly restrictive laws concerning use of lethal force in self-defense. In at least one 1979 case, they ruled (under the laws at that time) that a woman being assaulted by her violent ex should have retreated out of her trailer home before attempting to use lethal force. The same court noted however, that had she been defending her property, there may well have been no duty to retreat. So it seems that at least at one time, the Texas defense of property statute was interpreted by courts to apply some of the traditional English common law concept of "Castle Doctrine" to Texans even though the statutes at that time specifically denied it. I would need to do a lot more research to verify that hunch; but that would go a long way in explaining why Texas has a much different outlook on Defense of Property than many states.

OK, let's look at what the current statute on Defense of Property says (note Texas law allows Defense of a Third Person's property (see. Sec. 9.43 of Texas Penal Code) under even more restrictions; but for the sake of this discussion I am limiting it to defense of your own property to keep an already complex subject more simple):

Texas Penal Code said:
Sec. 9.41. PROTECTION OF ONE'S OWN PROPERTY. (a) A person in lawful possession of land or tangible, movable property is justified in using force against another when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to prevent or terminate the other's trespass on the land or unlawful interference with the property.

(b) A person unlawfully dispossessed of land or tangible, movable property by another is justified in using force against the other when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to reenter the land or recover the property if the actor uses the force immediately or in fresh pursuit after the dispossession and:

(1) the actor reasonably believes the other had no claim of right when he dispossessed the actor; or

(2) the other accomplished the dispossession by using force, threat, or fraud against the actor.


Sec. 9.42. DEADLY FORCE TO PROTECT PROPERTY. A person is justified in using deadly force against another to protect land or tangible, movable property:

(1) if he would be justified in using force against the other under Section 9.41; and

(2) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the deadly force is immediately necessary:

(A) to prevent the other's imminent commission of arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the nighttime, or criminal mischief during the nighttime; or

(B) to prevent the other who is fleeing immediately after committing burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, or theft during the nighttime from escaping with the property; and

(3) he reasonably believes that:

(A) the land or property cannot be protected or recovered by any other means; or

(B) the use of force other than deadly force to protect or recover the land or property would expose the actor or another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury.

So what conditions do we need to meet in order to claim Defense of Property?

1. You must be in lawful possession of either land or tangible, movable property.
2. You must reasonably believe that force is immediately necessary to terminate the other's trespass on the land or unlawful interference with the property.
3. You must reasonably believe that the other has no claim of right to the property or that you were dispossessed of the property by force, threat or fraud.

Once these first three conditions are met, you are allowed under Texas law to use force; but not lethal force to defend your property. In order to use lethal force, you must meet those three conditions AND the following conditions:

4. Deadly force must be IMMEDIATELY necessary in order to:
(a) prevent the other's imminent commission of arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the nighttime, or criminal mischief during the nighttime OR
(b) to prevent the other who is fleeing immediately after committing burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, or theft during the nighttime from escaping with the property;

5. You must reasonably believe one of the following:
(a) the land or property cannot be protected or recovered by any other means; OR
(b) the use of force other than deadly force to protect or recover the land or property would expose the actor or another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury

So once every single one of these conditions has been met, you have a right to use lethal force to defend property in Texas (though it is still possible you may be charged until you can provide sufficient evidence to a jury and/or law enforcement officials that you did in fact meet these conditions).

Now let's look at an example from Texas law. Mr. Jones is the owner of a Laundromat in Texas. When inspecting the Laundromat, he discovers that his machines have been broken into and all of his cash and several parts are missing. He spots the two men he believes did it in the parking lot and confronts them at 2:30p.m. The men state they have no idea what Mr. Jones is even talking about and continue to drink beer without relinquishing the property. Can Mr. Jones shoot them if they do in fact have his property?

1. Mr. Jones was in lawful possession of tangible, movable property (his money) so he appears to meet condition 1.
2. Is force IMMEDIATELY necessary to terminate the other's interference with property? A little gray area here. On the one hand, they have the property; but on the other hand, they are just standing there drinking beer. What is a jury going to say?
3. Mr. Jones appears to have been dispossessed of his lawful property by force or fraud, so he appears to be good for condition 3.
4. Now we are starting to get problematic for Mr. Jones - he is too late to prevent the imminent commission of theft - it has already happened. And the suspects in question are not fleeing immediately after the commission of the crime - they are standing in his parking lot drinking beer. Further, if the crime is theft, it didn't occur during the nighttime since it is 2:30pm. Mr. Jones doesn't meet ANY of the conditions for #4.
5. Could Mr. Jones recover the property by other means? Say by calling the cops on the people standing in his parking lot? Can he reasonably use less force than deadly force without being exposed to death or serious bodily injury? We don't really need the answers to these questions since we already know that Mr. Jones doesn't meet condition 4 and he must meet ALL 5 conditions to be able to use lethal force.

In real life, Mr. Jones did shoot one of the men and claimed self defense as well as defense of property. The trial court refused to even give an instruction on defense of property. He was convicted of aggravated assault and sentenced to eight years confinement. He appealed his conviction to the Houston Court of Appeals (1st Dist.) who upheld the refusal to give a jury instruction on Defense of Property because Mr. Jones failed to meet the conditions we discussed in item #4 above.

In my view, many of the conditions, particularly those in #5, depend on the jury seeing things the same way you do and have a great deal of subjective language. For that reason, I would not recommend using lethal force in defense of property in Texas unless the property is more valuable to you and your family than whatever prison sentence might result. However, if you do decide to take that risk - be sure you understand the necessary conditions and make sure you meet all of them.

As the Jones case shows, small subtleties (Is it day or night? Is the criminal fleeing IMMEDIATELY after the crime?) can make a big difference. Catch a criminal riding down the driveway on your bike at night and shoot him - you have met all of the conditions (assuming the jury agrees with you on #5). Catch the same criminal riding that same bike down a nearby street the next day? He is no longer fleeing immediately after the crime and you may have a problem with using lethal force. Little details like that can make the difference in whether you go to prison or not. So keep them in mind should you chose to rely on Section 9.42 to use lethal force.

Other good reading on the interpretation of Section 9.42 by Texas courts:
Johnson v. State, http://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=6384205821863426719&q
Ewing v. State, http://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=17609788601322432228&q
Kinback v. State, http://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=4171918244666289702&q

And considering that it appears here Mr. Karma, the accused shooter, set and baited a trap, it's not clear to me that his use of lethal force would pass muster even under Texas law.
 
Ed, thats a good start and most people do this. However, if I want to leave my garage door open in my own house without worry of someone coming in then I think I should be able to do so.

I think it would be nice. As for should, I think I should be able to walk around the block on my hands. I can't.

If you want you can put a fence around your property with a locking gate across the driveway. In the 15 years I lived in a house that had a fence like that, even leaving it unlocked, I had a total of 3 people actually let themselves inside the gate. Never had anything stolen either, unlike every place I have ever lived that didn't have such a fence.
 
Posted by javjacob: I don't see anything wrong with a lowlife thief getting what he deserves.
Whether the man in the garage was a "lowlife thief" had not been established, and it can only be determined in a court of law.

What a convicted thief "deserves" must be established in a court of law in accordance with the applicable sentencing guidelines. Nowhere in this country would that include the death penalty.

Let it be a lesson to all the other thieves out there.
That comment not only reflects poorly on this forum, it also provides fuel for those who would eliminate castle doctrine laws.

It may also be used against you to establish state of mind, should you ever be involved in a use of force incident.
 
Posted by Telekenesis: Not to be adversarial, but if holing up in a room and waiting for a bad guy to come in isn't an ambush, what is it? Does it change if your family is in a room behind you and you are covering the only entrance of a stairway or hallway?
You are not "waiting for a bad guy to come in". You are getting you and yours into a place of safety. If you are attacked you may respond as necessary.

Most trainers suggest shouting "the police have been called. Get out!"

Your objective is to stay alive and unhurt. It is not to shoot anyone.

An ambush involves purposely placing oneself where one expects a victim to pass for the purpose of shooting at him. Except in war, that is unlawful.
 
frank ettin said:
And considering that it appears here Mr. Karma, the accused shooter, set and baited a trap, it's not clear to me that his use of lethal force would pass muster even under Texas law.

Seems pretty clear to me that many of his actions wouldn't pass muster under Texas law. Don't recall claiming that they would. I'd appreciate someone providing quotes if I'm incorrect.

The reference to Texas law was to point out to alsaqr that obviously not everyone felt the same way he does ("All the stuff in my house is not worth my killing someone over"), and there was no reason to close further discussion on the issue .
 
I think it would be nice. As for should, I think I should be able to walk around the block on my hands. I can't.

If you want you can put a fence around your property with a locking gate across the driveway. In the 15 years I lived in a house that had a fence like that, even leaving it unlocked, I had a total of 3 people actually let themselves inside the gate. Never had anything stolen either, unlike every place I have ever lived that didn't have such a fence.

Do you not walk on your hands because you're worried about someone pushing you over, or because you can't physically do it? Not the same thing.

We should be able to leave our doors open. I've had unwelcome guests come into my garage while I was working on my truck, and I simply asked them to leave. If they don't, we have a problem. An open door is not an invitation to come in.

I think it's smart to lock your doors, always. I also think it's a shame we have to.
 
You are not "waiting for a bad guy to come in". You are getting you and yours into a place of safety. If you are attacked you may respond as necessary.

Most trainers suggest shouting "the police have been called. Get out!"

Your objective is to stay alive and unhurt. It is not to shoot anyone.

An ambush involves purposely placing oneself where one expects a victim to pass for the purpose of shooting at him. Except in war, that is unlawful.

Many different places have different laws regarding how you may respond, and when. You don't always need to be attacked, or at least not in the manner that I'm interpreting your statement.
 
We should be able to leave our doors open. ... An open door is not an invitation to come in.

You can leave your doors open. There may be exceptions to that rule (e.g. I've heard that police in Australia will ticket you if you leave your car doors unlocked, on the theory it encourages crime and is therefore a public nuisance) but in general you can. There are risks involved though.

There is clearly disagreement about whether an open door is an invitation to come in. The way I was raised, you didn't enter someone's home (or garage) unless you were explicitly invited. However, I have had people get upset with me because I walked up to their (open) front door, rang the doorbell, and waited for them to come to the door instead of walking in on my own. Those people were raised within half a mile of me, and "share my culture", but learned a very different meaning of an open door. In the case outlined in this thread, the kid who was shot wasn't even from the US so may have had an even more different upbringing. In a country where such disagreements exist between neigbors, and where we invite people from Europe and other places to live with us, it is only reasonable that we avoid situations that can cause confusion. E.g. close and lock our doors when we don't want people walking in.
 
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Posted by SnowBlaZeR2: You don't always need to be attacked, or at least not in the manner that I'm interpreting your statement.
You are, of course, correct. Thanks. I was rather imprecise.

My point was, if you are in a safe room, and someone enters it, and you can reasonably tell that the entry is unlawful, you may use deadly force.

Of course, you may have set yourself up to be able to shoot down a staircase, or down a hallway. You may also be justified in shooting, depending upon conditions and the jurisdiction and upon whether or not the intruder is on his way out.

That is not the same as an ambush.

We see more and more comments that indicate that many people believe that castle doctrine laws provide persons with carte blanche justification for shooting people in their homes. Not so. In general, they provide residents with important presumptions pertaining to justification, reducing the requirement to produce evidence that the resident had reason to believe...(and so on). The threshold for justification varies--perhaps the prevention of a felony, or even the prevention of the use of any force at all against a resident, would suffice. Perhaps not.

But in all jurisdictions, and under all but a few circumstances, the resident will find himself or herself much better off if the use of force can be avoided altogether.

Thanks again for raising the point.
 
There are a lot of stupid people in the world, the ones who drink and drive, who text and drive, beat their wives and kill their kids,and make bad decisions every day of their lives.
Why would a sane person ever believe that they will suddenly become more insightful or smarter when it comes to the use of a firearm?
Without first doing more checking before handing someone a license to carry a deadly weapon, you must consider the level of intelligence of who you are giving it to.
Since no one is for any kind of checking or testing, these kinds of tragedy's are going to continue to occur, as more and more people get into gun ownership, that once was taboo, and social suicide to even talk about. As usual I expect to hear the guys who believe everyone should be able to have a gun, but is everyone mentally stable enough to have one, and if some nut shot a friend or family member for some stupid or insane reason, would you still feel that way.
When you give unbalanced people the power of life and death in a easy to use package, and they interpret the law in a manner, which suits them, you have a real problem.
We are at a critical juncture in our society, I can't see us going back to more selective distribution of guns, but yet, how do you control the people who insist on doing what they think is right, rather than what the law and society say is right.
You leave a lot of things open to interpretation when writing laws that most people never read, they look at headlines not content.
This spree of killings of late with the self rationalization that they were acting in accord with the law is a real problem, I have no idea how you fix it.
 
Snowblazer, are you just arguing just for the fun of it or is there some validity to it? Yes state laws differ from state to state NO state law would allow for this homeowner to do what he did and call it a justified defense. He stepped OUTSIDE his house after baiting the suspect into his WIDE OPEN garage, blocking the burglars escape and blasted away. Lets use some common sense with this one. It's plain and simple.
 
The homeowner baited a trap and then killed someone after having made it known he was staying up to shoot someone burglarising the property so he and his partner are guilty of murder.

Had they kept the garage closed and simply established the camera and security measures without the premeditation for the shooting they would have had a leg to stand on. Not having shot themselves in the foot baiting a trap.
 
I get the fact that some people lament not being able to leave their doors opened/unlocked, but I believe that is less about the risk of theft and more about the lack of community.

I live in an active and established neighborhood that is about 30-35 years old. It sprawls and connects well over a dozen streets and a couple hundred houses, I'd say. For the most part, it's a very good neighborhood. Lots of working class stiffs with young families like myself, a good amount of empty nesters, and a smattering of people who make enough money to be in a much ritzier subdivision but simply LIKE where they live. Like all places, there are a fair number of quasi run-down homes, a couple of weirdos to keep an eye on, and an apartment complex several blocks over with some rotating tenants.

That said, I feel no reservation about leaving my garage door up when my wife and daughter and I go for a walk for a few hours during the day. I'm friendly with my neighbors and they with me. We don't all know each others names, but we know enough to keep an eye out on each others stuff should we spy something fishy. There are simply too many familiar eyes on every home to make it an easy target during the day and most of the night.

For me, being able to trust my neighbors to at least try and keep my best interests in mind means more to me than any right to do bodily harm to a trespasser wanting my stuff. It really doesn't take THAT much community to make a neighborhood an unattractive target for a criminal.

In my mind, anyone risking so much exposure in my house is either desperate or dangerous or both. I feel that it's prudent to simply keep my family safe rather than engage over material things. But like I stated before, if you make a move toward the stairs and don't stop at either the snarling dog or my loud verbal warning, I have to assume than your intentions on progressing up to the second floor are malicious and I will respond out of fear for the lives of my family.
 
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