US Marshal arrested, charged w/ murder in MD shooting

[Stand_Watie]

I hate to say it, but the only deputy marshal that I've known was an absolutely animalistic 'roid-head who worked out at the same gym as me...

The only deputy marshal that I've known, is a man I went through the police academy with, and lived with for several months, was a kind and gentle Christian man, who would never deliberately harm another person without believing it was absolutely neccessary to do his job. That said, he is in very deep trouble also, although he has been cleared of criminal charges. I believe from reading the news reports (and I want to emphasize that all I know of the matter is from news reports, I haven't spoken with him in ten years) that there was a deep flaw in training and upkeep of training that led to this tragedy

http://www.fansoffieger.com/usmarshal.htm

By John S. Hausman CHRONICLE STAFF WRITER

A federal lawsuit filed by Michigan's most famous trial attorney alleges the U.S. Marshal Service and two deputy marshals violated the constitutional rights of Leon Dandredge when a marshal shot him dead in a Muskegon home in August 2003.

Leslie Karum of Muskegon, the mother of Dandredge's youngest daughter, seeks damages from the deputy marshals, the marshal service and the U.S. government.

Karum sued last week in U.S. District Court's Western District of Michigan in Grand Rapids. She is represented by the firm of high-profile Southfield attorney Geoffrey N. Fieger, who ran for governor in 1998. Karum's local counsel is Kenneth Hoopes.

On Aug. 20, 2003, federal fugitive Dandredge, 35, was fatally shot in the face in the basement of a female friend's home at 1123 Pine. Dandredge was wanted on a warrant for parole violation. Two deputy U.S. marshals -- later identified as Mark Hessler and Ken Groenveld -- had gone to the home about noon looking for him.

According to an investigation by the U.S. Justice Department's Civil Rights Division, Hessler shot Dandredge "out of surprise and fear," pulling the trigger of his handgun after Dandredge stood up from under a pile of clothing in a dimly lit basement laundry room. Groenveld was on the basement staircase when the shot was fired and did not see it happen.

The federal investigation, completed in March, concluded no crime was committed when Dandredge died. The marshal service then launched its own internal investigation to determine whether disciplinary action was warranted. No results of that probe have been released, according to Karum's attorneys...

 

[F4GIB]

Good cops dont tolerate bad cops.

Cops dont get a pass on domestic violence convictions. Those that had convictions lost their positions (if they were able to keep them anyway) when the DV clause when into effect, and any new convictions will also get them tossed or demoted to a non-armed position, something like meter attendent.

I think the facts of this case call this stastement into question.

 

[nico]

I feel for everyone except the Marshall. The worst part is the shooting probably never would have happened if he had been dealt with properly in the first place.

 

[Yojinbo]

I know many of us have condemed this Marshal already in our minds but one phrase stuck out in my mind:

"Lloyd was taken to a local hospital where he was treated and released for a broken thumb and other injuries he sustained..."

I'v only been in a few scuffles in my day but the only times I ever saw thumbs break were:
1. Improper fist while punching (thump parallel to forarm). Normally just a jam.
2. Thumb hold is applied.

Now, I'm going to assume the Marshal (are we really talking about a deputy marshal here?) was too smart (expirenced) to stick his thumb out. This makes me dwell on option 2. I have used a thumb hold before on people and it can be a close thing. If you are facing the holdee, his instinct is to draw the held hand back into his body. You can take it UP (brining you closer still) or you can take it out (same effect). But you basically end up with parallel forearms at some point on a sustainable front thumb hold - and close torsos.

I said all that to say this: It's possible that the kid was stronger and had some training in hand-to-hand. The kid put him in a thumb hold and did what comes natually - taked smack. I only say this becase I have done it. When you have the advantage you want to demoralize your opponent. To a young man of intermeidate expirence, a bit of threating talk would be natural.

Now consider the broken thumb. Again my limited brain can only see two options:

1. The Marshal 'lifted' out of the hold in rage and broke his thumb to get free.
2. The kid bent the thumb back to get compliance or surrender and went too far.

Now, I'm a good man. But if I was an LEO (parish the thought) and I just had my thumb broken my some boy who was in my face talking BS to me like I was a punk - I would probably draw. Now once you draw all kids of odd stuff can take place.

I cannot condone firing on the fleeing felon (he just assulted a US Marshal). My only (lame) excuse is that a 53-year-old Marshal would have spent most of career without the Fleeing Felon lesigislation we have today. Maybe he just flashed back in pain (ever had a digit broken? - it hurst more then you would think) and blazed away "old school" on the kid.

Defence rests. I realize that thumb thing is pure conjecture - it could have been broken in a car door too as the kid was running.


-Yo

 

[Daniel T]

I cannot condone firing on the fleeing felon (he just assulted a US Marshal).

That's a pretty tortured conclusion to reach. How about you fill us all in on how Stowers would be a felon?

 

[Yojinbo]

Daniel T, you have to follow my crazy logic (with no proof).

If Stowers just broke the thumb of the Marshal and left the sceen of a traffic accident is he not a felon? Am I the only one who can get there from here?

-Yo

 

[Werewolf]

I cannot condone firing on the fleeing felon (he just assulted a US Marshal).

When the seaman fled did he know that Lloyd was a Marshall? He definitely didn't know when the altercation first occured - at least I don't think he did.

This was a fight between two citizens - not a citizen and a LEO. The marshall definitely was not acting as a LEO when the fight started. Isn't there some rule about mutal combat or something?

A better question is why did the marshall with his wife and kids in his car stop in the first place. Road Rage?

It is my understanding that 1st degree murder only attaches if there is premeditation. Regarding the 1st degree murder charge - the only possible justification based on the facts as presented is what El Tejon pointed out in the statement made by the marshall, "if you move that car I'll shoot you...". The degree of heinousness of the murder is irrelevant to a 1st degree charge. The only thing that counts is whether or not there was premeditation.

IMO that statement ("if you move...") was made in the heat of the moment. A statement made in anger is not thought out and a good argument could be made that since it was made in the heat of the moment and while the utterer was in a state of rage that premeditation does not attach. That's what I'd argue in a court but then I'm no lawyer.

Never the less - based on the story as written IMO the marshall should be put away for many, many years.

 

[CannibalCrowley]

I cannot condone firing on the fleeing felon (he just assulted a US Marshal).

Since when is mutual combat a felony? If you're calling the deceased a felon then you should be applying the same standard to the Marshall.

 

[Yojinbo]

I freely admit to aummuption here. But I assumed that the Marshall would have ID'ed himself upon drawing. If he did not, you are right the kid had no way of knowing. Altough if I were wresteling with a an armned man, there is a chance I would see or feel the gun.

-Yo

 

[Tory]

To assume, you must make

an ASS out of U and ME. Remember that old canard? Obviously not....

"I cannot condone firing on the fleeing felon (he just assulted a US Marshal)."

WHAT "felon" ? The marshall pulled over with the seaman; that means at least ONE of them - and we don't know who at this point - ESCALATED the matter by furthering the engagement. We know certain facts:

1. There was an incident between the two while driving;

2. BOTH pulled into the parking lot;

3. The marshall has a a gun to wave and a badge to hide behind;

4. The marshall has a history of violent behavior, against prisoners and his own family.

Care to guess who both continued, and then escalated the conflict?

Self-defense is NOT a crime, as anyone on this forum ought to grasp. IF - again, IF - the marshall initiated the physical assault, as he did the shooting, then the seaman was acting in self defense. Moreover, the seamen, NOT the marshall, called the police; the seaman, not the marshall, DISENGAGED.

Again, based on what (little) facts we have, what rational basis (note: this excludes mere conjecture) is there for calling the seaman a "fleeing felon" ?

 

[JohnJames]

I'v only been in a few scuffles in my day but the only times I ever saw thumbs break were:
1. Improper fist while punching (thump parallel to forarm). Normally just a jam.
2. Thumb hold is applied.



-Yo

Or # 3. and the most likely, he broke it on impact with the ground. Many people break fingers, wrists, arms, tear tendons, etc., trying to catch themselves as they fall back.

 

[F4GIB]

It is my understanding that 1st degree murder only attaches if there is premeditation.

You ask for evidence of premeditation. Here it is...
"But the deputy, Arthur L. Lloyd, 53, rebuffed his wife, saying, 'I'm going to show him,' then fired the first of four shots, the affidavit states."
After the marshall lost the fist fight, he decided to win his own gun fight. More than enough for a conviction.

 

[Old Dog]

One fact about the victim: he'd recently (September) had knee surgery and was on limited duty in the Navy (basically, light duty while rehabiliting from the injury/operation) ... some more background on the victim: he was "tall and thin" according to his mother. He was reportedly a "good kid" (good natured and mellow) from a stable family and played sports in high school (basketball and baseball); held a couple jobs after high school, looking for direction in his life, joined the Navy ...

All the eyewitness accounts were pretty consistent that the marshal was the aggressor ...

 

[Werewolf]

You ask for evidence of premeditation. Here it is...
"But the deputy, Arthur L. Lloyd, 53, rebuffed his wife, saying, 'I'm going to show him,' then fired the first of four shots, the affidavit states."
After the marshall lost the fist fight, he decided to win his own gun fight. More than enough for a conviction.

Wouldn't words uttered in a state of rage be a mitigating circumstance? It appears the guy was out of control based on his actions. If one could make a solid case for him being out of control in court wouldn't that negate a 1st degree murder charge since an out of control condition/rage would seem to me to me to make premeditation impossible.

If I were a defense attorney (I'm not an attorney) that's the tack I'd take in defending this guy against a 1st degree murder charge. I don't think he has a defense against a 2nd degree charge.

ASIDE: Aren't you an Attorney F4GIB? I vaguely recall seeing that somewhere...

 

[Harry Tuttle]

There may not be legal repercussions from a Marshall killing a Navyman, but i would bet there will be backroom "negotiations" in the Pentagon

Lloyd suffered a black eye and a broken thumb in the fight with Stowers. Two law enforcement sources, speaking on condition of anonymity because the case is still under investigation, said Stowers punched Lloyd repeatedly and pulled his shirt over his head. Stowers beat up Lloyd "pretty badly," one source said.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A23625-2004Nov3.html

Stowers had some street fighting ability

 

[cxm]

Given the Marshal's psyco history, and the fact the bully used a government firearm, I'm sure the U.S. government will be sued big time.

The Marshal Service knew or should have known this guy was bad news and took no action to protect the public from him. Thus, major liability at tort.

To the extent anything good can come of something like this, maybe it will impel the Feds to weed out some of the wackos they employ.

FWIW

Chuck

What are the federal repercussions of a US Marshall murdering a Navyman?

 

[Bigfoot]

Good cops dont tolerate bad cops.

Agreed, but my dad was a LEO and so were all of his friends and I remember hearing this said more than once. "There are good guys and bad guys, and the good guys all have badges." It's a fraternity and they cover for each other, it might have killed somebody this time. Although he would have been almost as dangerous as a civilian.

 

[Tory]

But........

"Although he [ the marshall] would have been almost as dangerous as a civilian."

Reality check: Do you REALLY think a civilian would still have his guns and license after those DV incidents?

Methinks NOT!

 

[Bigfoot]

In all cases, Marshal Lloyd's son and wife later asked for the orders to be dropped or did not cooperate with police. He was never charged with any crimes, Mr. McCarthy said.

Depends on the juristiction.

 

[rock jock]

Well, I'm just glad Marshall Lloyd went home safe that evening.

 

[Archangel]

Wouldn't words uttered in a state of rage be a mitigating circumstance?

Not necessarily. Premeditation doesn't have to be detailed plans pinned to his bedroom wall. He just has to think "I'm going to kill this guy, and here's how I'll do it" and then act on that thought. There is legal precidence for the premeditation happening during the encounter.

Lloyd's statements of "I'll show him" and "I'll shoot you in the head" are both indicative of the sort of things he was thinking. After the first shot, Stowers had time to retreat to his car, call the police, be threatened verbally by Lloyd, and pull around him and start to drive away. The amount of time it takes to do all that, is that the "heat of the moment?" Or is that enough time to think "This guy humiliated me in front of my family. I'll kill him before I let him get away."

It may not be the easiest murder 1 case to prove, but I think they do have a case. Then again, they may just be shooting high (no pun intended) with the intent of plea bargaining down to a lesser murder charge.

 

[Archangel]

A head shot is designed to kill, not to stop.

Can do both, you know. Bein' dead is about as 'stopped' as you can get.

It's only a "stop" if there's a threat to stop. Otherwise it's murder.

 

[sendec]

The rules are the same for an LEO and civilian - a DV CONVICTION triggers the firearms bar, not an incident or arrest. Before somebody goes there, locals are in no big hurry to cover up for the feds, and are in any case not inclined to look the other way when it comes to DV, if for no other reason than liability. LEOs who handle DV runs and come back without a prisoner or a really good reason tend to do a lot of explaning to supervisors.

The blue wall of silence is a lot more decrepit than people think, especially when it comes to ouitside agencies

 

[cxm]

But how safe is he in the gray bar?

I suspect he looks good in orange... and will get to like LeRoy.

FWIW

Chuck

Well, I'm just glad Marshall Lloyd went home safe that evening.

 

[Marko Kloos]

The seaman doesn't look like a saint in this one, but at least he was the one who tried to disengage and call 911 after being shot once.

This reads to me like a case of two hotheads with too much testosterone. Too bad one of the hotheads had a gun to go with that ego and those hormones.

I think the point here that gun carriers need to be extra mindful of conflict avoidance...you simply cannot take any measures that can escalate a conflict, even if it means you may look "un-manly" in front of others.

That goes double and triple for badge holders, who have an extra layer of responsibility due to their status. It's tempting to rationalize ego conflicts as "felony interventions" when a short temper is paired with a badge. In all fairness, there are also quite a few civilian CCW knuckleheads out there who think their permit makes them the Long Arm of the Law, ready to avenge the slightest provocation with an armed response.

The kid would not be dead, and the Marshal would not be in jail on Murder One charges, if he had kept a cool head and not let his ego get in the way. As a federal agent, he had both the training and the obligation to do so, and his failure cost him his freedom...and a 20-year old kid his life. Sad.