Man Charged With Murder In Home Shooting Case

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Posted by Double Naught Spy: ....staying in a position from which you can defend yourself, should it become necessary,...certainly can be in the form of ambushing.
Not really. An ambush is defined as a surprise attack on an unsuspecting person by someone lying in wait. The nuance may seem slight, but a person carrying out an ambush does so for the express purpose of attacking his victim or victims.

It is a fundamental tenant of the lawful use of force, deadly or otherwise, that it be used defensively, and, notwithstanding the verbiage of castle laws, only when the defender has reason to believe that it is necessary. The law may establish that the fact of an unlawful entry could provide a basis for that reason, but that basis may or may not prove adequate in the light of the totality of the evidence.

You do not want to go about doing anything that would indicate that your primary objective was to surprise and attack someone.

To stay in a safe position and to use deadly force when and if it becomes necessary to defend oneself or anyone else in the house from a forcible felony is not at all the same thing as planning to attack someone simply because he has entered the occupied structure unlawfully.

Had the homeowner heard a noise in his open garage and just started blasting away as he did, he would be in the same trouble if he killed the intruder. He would have illegally used lethal force.
Probably, since it would probably be rather difficult for him to articulate a reasonable belief that his action had been immediately necessary to prevent a forcible felony, but the evidence against him would be weaker.
 
This is why we can't have nice things.

There's always that guy.

Even if he is one in a million or one in ten million or one in a hundred million...he's out there.
 
This is why we can't have nice things.

There's always that guy.

Even if he is one in a million or one in ten million or one in a hundred million...he's out there.


Would you please explain this comment?
 
This is why we can't have nice things.

There's always that guy.

Even if he is one in a million or one in ten million or one in a hundred million...he's out there.

Folks have set out to kill one another and come up with excuses to get off the hook for -- literally -- all of recorded history. Nothing new or especially alarming here. And quite often, they don't get away with it and end up tried and convicted of that criminal act.

This is a good cautionary tale for those of us who think about self- and home-defense ahead of time, but realistically it doesn't actually mean a whole lot. I'd wager 99.9% of us here -- like 99.9% of the rest of society -- would not ever even consider deliberately trapping a couple of teenage petty thieves and shooting them to death.

This guy, ultimately, is just another murderer and society has always had its fair share of them. Part of being a species of more-or-less free willed individuals.
 
This is a good cautionary tale for those of us who think about self- and home-defense ahead of time, but realistically it doesn't actually mean a whole lot. I'd wager 99.9% of us here -- like 99.9% of the rest of society -- would not ever even consider deliberately trapping a couple of teenage petty thieves and shooting them to death.

I believe you're right. But...in all of these cases a common theme most-often seems to be the need for Vengeance on the behalf of the shooter. And...when a guy picks up a gun with vengeance in his heart, then I think there is a real danger of something terrible and unnecessary happening.

Another theme I often see is an "Over-Active Imagination" where people are imagining physical threats that don't exist. then, after they have built up in their mind that this is a Really Bad Guy, they somehow arrange it so that they meet him with a gun.

It's crazy.
 
believe you're right. But...in all of these cases a common theme most-often seems to be the need for Vengeance on the behalf of the shooter. And...when a guy picks up a gun with vengeance in his heart, then I think there is a real danger of something terrible and unnecessary happening.

Another theme I often see is an "Over-Active Imagination" where people are imagining physical threats that don't exist. then, after they have built up in their mind that this is a Really Bad Guy, they somehow arrange it so that they meet him with a gun.

It's crazy.
Perhaps it's crazy. But it isn't unheard of. As I said, very, very similar things have been going on for all of recorded human history. Humans are vengeful by nature. Almost all of our great stories, told for millennia, the world over, illustrate that.

We're just at the (perhaps novel, all things considered) point of civilization where we have agreed that killing is, or should be, noteworthy, frowned upon, reserved to the State in all but a very small set of circumstances, officially investigated by the State, have rigorous standards of "justification" applied, and punished if found to have not been very specifically necessary for the preservation of innocent life. And even more novelly, we've adopted the idea that even those who violate some of society's less serious standards are, nonetheless, deserving of a right to life and protection from the most serious retributory violence from those they've wronged.

There have always been, and always will be, a very few who will violate the current norms of whatever society they're members of and get caught.

This guy's not anything special.
 
Posted by Bill_Shelton: But...in all of these cases a common theme most-often seems to be the need for Vengeance on the behalf of the shooter.
It is my impression, and I have been following every well-reported incident that has come up on the boards for about five and a half years, that "all of these cases" add up to probably a half dozen, maximum, for the whole country in that time frame. Too many, of course, but even if there have been twice that many, the number is minuscule in perspective.

And let's keep it in perspective. We saw vengeance in Montana last Sunday; we saw vengeance in Minnesota a couple of years ago, and the trial was just concluded. Not too long ago, we heard of couple of cases involving loud music. And then there were the Muhs of Texas, who shot at the car on the levee.

But there have been many, many other crimes of violence in this country. drive by shootings, drug-related killings, the so called "knock out game", rapes, kidnappings, and so on.

None of those were perpetrated by people who would, with a straight face, describe themselves as "good guys."

What we have been discussing here this week is homeowners gone bad. The violent crime around us is much, much more prevalent, and is a horse of a different color.

And...when a guy picks up a gun with vengeance in his heart, then I think there is a real danger of something terrible and unnecessary happening.
Certainly.

Another theme I often see is an "Over-Active Imagination" where people are imagining physical threats that don't exist. then, after they have built up in their mind that this is a Really Bad Guy, they somehow arrange it so that they meet him with a gun.
If you include Internet banter, I "often see" that, too.

But for the most part, the forum comments seem to me to have become much, much more responsible and reasoned in the last several years.

Whether that is because we as a community have been successful in terms of education, or wether it is because the most bombastic of the loudmouths have been banned from the boards that I frequent, I do not know.
 
Kleanbore writes:
I suggest that we refrain from both repetitive and off-topic comments, and limit ourselves to posting reports of new developments as they unfold.

I agree. This thread has potential to travel down the same road the others regarding the high-profile Sanford, FL incident did when that incident was "hot". I seem to remember the main one being kept closed, and only being opened whenever new developments to report came up.
 
or wether it is because the most bombastic of the loudmouths have been banned from the boards that I frequent,

Probably this. It doesn't take long for the truly moronic people to rise to the top and stand out like the fecal matter they are.
 
Isn't this a case of the internet being a conduit for stories like this to make it seem more pertinent than they are. Not that it's not bizarre, but if crime has been going down over the past decade, as most seem to say, then is it just that we hear about these crimes faster and in more detail than before the internet and forums existed?
Or are things actually getting worse in general?
 
Gym, something like this wouldn't have made it even into a brief mention one night on the Evening News back a decade or three ago. But you spend a lot of time on a forum, in a community of forums really, that focuses and popularizes and endlessly debates ANY story that's firearms related.

Look at the crime statistics. They continue to fall. The internet's news concentrating effect makes it look quite the opposite, though. "We" are interested in stories like this, so we all repost any story we come across like this, discuss it at length, share it with all our other forum homes, and so on.

Do not worry. Things are not getting worse.
 
Look at the crime statistics. They continue to fall. The internet's news concentrating effect makes it look quite the opposite, though. "We" are interested in stories like this, so we all repost any story we come across like this, discuss it at length, share it with all our other forum homes, and so on.

Actually, I don't post all the bad shootings I read about - and there have been more than a few in my hometown of Houston. But...I will talk about the worst ones...the ones that make national news and for which everyone is aware and can discuss with some knowleadge.

As far as crime statistics goes...I agree with you 100%. We live in a time safer than it was when I was a child back in the 60's. I mean, you can fudge numbers like robbery, assault, burglary, rape, etc...but it's hard to fudge a murdered corpse and those numbers have been dropping for quite awhile. So...when I hear about "All the violence and crime nowadays" or "All the gun deaths...etc.." I am pretty quick to remind people we haven't had it so safe in the past 50 years.
 
As far as crime statistics goes...I agree with you 100%. We live in a time safer than it was when I was a child back in the 60's. I mean, you can fudge numbers like robbery, assault, burglary, rape, etc...but it's hard to fudge a murdered corpse and those numbers have been dropping for quite awhile. So...when I hear about "All the violence and crime nowadays" or "All the gun deaths...etc.." I am pretty quick to remind people we haven't had it so safe in the past 50 years.


^^^^This^^^^

The violent crime rate has gone down drastically since 1991. Murder and manslaughter went from 24,703 in 1991 to 14,748 in 2010.

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2010/crime-in-the-u.s.-2010/tables/10tbl01.xls
 
I came across some good information relevant to understanding this case that I thought I would share:

The charging affidavit (deliberate homicide) by the state of Montana:
http://www.nbcmontana.com/blob/view/-/25702906/data/1/-/neugtsz/-/Kaarma-Affidavit-pdf.pdf

Google maps view of the scene described on the charging affidavit:
https://www.google.com/maps/preview...&hl=en&ved=0CAsQ2wU&ei=bohrU5auOILVgQSAuILAAQ

Mr. Kaarma's statement from today (through his lawyer finally):
http://www.abcfoxmontana.com/story/25446280/markus-kaarma-speaks-out-on-diren-dede-shooting
 
Some more information on this case which was on the front page of the print edition of today's New York Times:

MISSOULA, Mont. — Teenagers call it garage hopping. The goal was to sneak into an open garage, steal some beer or other items and slip away into the night. It was dumb and clearly illegal. It was not supposed to be deadly.

Around midnight on April 27, a 17-year-old exchange student from Germany named Diren Dede left the host home where he played Xbox and drained cans of Sprite to set off with a friend through his dark hillside neighborhood. They passed a home whose garage door hung partially open. Using a cellphone for light, Mr. Dede headed in...

Continued here: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/08/u...enager-in-garage.html?src=me&ref=general&_r=0

Ed
 
Some more information on this case which was on the front page of the print edition of today's New York Times:

MISSOULA, Mont. — Teenagers call it garage hopping. The goal was to sneak into an open garage, steal some beer or other items and slip away into the night. It was dumb and clearly illegal. It was not supposed to be deadly.

Around midnight on April 27, a 17-year-old exchange student from Germany named Diren Dede left the host home where he played Xbox and drained cans of Sprite to set off with a friend through his dark hillside neighborhood. They passed a home whose garage door hung partially open. Using a cellphone for light, Mr. Dede headed in...

Continued here: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/08/us...f=general&_r=0

Ed



They make it seem like a harmless "game", but it could give the homeowner a heart attack to have someone breaking into their home.


Victim's aren't aware of the suspects intentions, whether it's to "garage hop", murder, rape, assault, or kidnap.


I think this is a case like the Minnesota case where the homeowner went to far and set up a trap.
 
I only read the yaya link.

The other was one of those endless loads and may be a different story but one of the significant items that I took from the second link was this:

Prosecutors say they lured intruders into fatal encounters.

Plural implying that each case had the "luring" effect in the actions on the part of the homeowners.

I wonder just how they were "lured" into repeating that crimes?

All that said - as the incidents were presented - I don't see justification in killing someone in these instances. Whether or not it represents murder on the part of the homeowners - not to mention "premeditated" in at least one case is another matter.

One way I make certain to not get shot as I go about my daily grind is to not sneak-thief into other people's homes. To date, my personal safety measures in this regard have been 100% successful. Still here, still not shot... in that scenario.:evil:

Now, a guy named "Ka(a)rma got ratted out by his hair dresser? That's just beggin' for snark!

Todd.
 
I think where he really ran into trouble was the point at which he turned trapping into hunting. I'm all for residents not having to prove an intruder is armed, have to figiure out an intruder's intent before opening fire, but the fact that this took place in the GARAGE and not the residence part of the home is closer to shooting somebody in your driveway or front lawn for entering your vehicle than defending your home, and I think that didn't help his case much. Had he "ambushed" the kid in his bedroom hallway, it would have greatly altered the perception.
 
In MI you may not protect any of your property outside your house.
If you shoot a person stealing your car or property in your yard or garage YOU are going to prison.
If you are stupid enuf to run outside to stop them & you harm them--YOU may find yourself dead or IN SERIOUS TROUBLE.
If they break into your house you may shoot them without warning
 
I'm not aware of any states that allow deadly force to protect property, though I could be wrong. I think most of the variance is on whether you can confront somebody stealing your stuff, which could result in your having to use deadly force to protect youself as in "I saw him stealing my lawnmower from the shed, so I went out and confronted him, and he lunged at me so I had to protect myself".
 
Let's see, the defendant installed motion detectors, admitted to others that he was sleep deprived from staying up at nights waiting for a burglar, he left the garage door opened, and he planted valuables in plain sight. He shot the kid as the student plead for his life saying, " No, no, please..." After firing the first three shots, he paused and waited, then fired a fourth and final shot. Not a good thing IMHO.
 
Posted by TimSr:
I'm not aware of any states that allow deadly force to protect property, though I could be wrong.
Texas is the sole exception, but the conditions under which the use of deadly force would be justified are quite limited.

I think most of the variance is on whether you can confront somebody stealing your stuff, which could result in your having to use deadly force to protect youself as in "I saw him stealing my lawnmower from the shed, so I went out and confronted him, and he lunged at me so I had to protect myself".
Not a good idea at all. People have tried that, claimed self defense, and ended up convicted.

After all, that would involve in going out to protect the property, and getting into a use of force incident that would not have occurred but for that action.

Keep in mind hat castle doctrine laws invariably apply only in cases of persons who have entered a occupied structures or conveyances unlawfully.
 
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