Man who sold ammo to Vegas shooter is charged with manufacturing armor-piercing bullets

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Aim1

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It sounds like he didn’t know what the Vegas shooter was up to. Apparently sold him armor piercing and tracer rounds.



http://nbc4i.com/2018/02/02/man-who...ith-manufacturing-armor-piercing-bullets/amp/



Man who sold ammo to Vegas shooter is charged with manufacturing armor-piercing bullets

By Associated PressPublished: February 2, 2018, 5:58 pm

Unfired armor-piercing bullets found inside the Las Vegas hotel room where the attack was launched on Oct. 1 contained the fingerprints of ammunition dealer Douglas Haig of Arizona, according to the complaint filed in federal court in Phoenix. It says Haig didn’t have a license to manufacture armor-piercing ammunition.
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WestKentucky said:
Could they realistically go after him for anything related to Vegas, or just for manufacture without appropriate FFL?
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I could see Frank weighing in on this one but I don’t think they could really get him for anything related to the massacre unless he knew he was planning something. Prior knowledge could equal intent or an accomplice. Would also possibly have to prove that the ammunition somehow enabled him to kill more people. While I haven’t seen the crime scene photos, I don’t recall anyone being shot behind an engine block or concrete barrier.
 
I’m confused.
He’s charged with illegally manufacturing “armor piercing” ammo. But the articles I’ve read then go on about tracer rounds.
Could someone explain what is legal and what’s not legal for a “ammo dealer”? What’s legal and not legal for the rest of us who reload? And are tracers considered “armor piercing” or is this sloppy reporting by the typical anti gun media who don’t care enough to get the facts straight and take the time to learn them?

I’m totally confused here. The only thing I see is finding someone to charge To show “somethings been done”.
 
Hokie_PhD said:
I’m confused.
He’s charged with illegally manufacturing “armor piercing” ammo. But the articles I’ve read then go on about tracer rounds.
Could someone explain what is legal and what’s not legal for a “ammo dealer”? What’s legal and not legal for the rest of us who reload? And are tracers considered “armor piercing” or is this sloppy reporting by the typical anti gun media who don’t care enough to get the facts straight and take the time to learn them?

I’m totally confused here. The only thing I see is finding someone to charge To show “somethings been done”.
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I can't find a link but the news report last night said it was legal to mfgr tracer rounds and illegal to mfgr armor piercing with out a licence.
 
Typical poor news reporting.

Since the report says "manufacturing'" that would seem to require a FFL-10 license which is for "manufacturer of destructive devices, ammunition for destructive devices or armor piercing ammunition."

He may only have a FFL-01 license which puts him in violation of selling remanufacture (I.e. his reloads) ammunition he made himself. Intent for proving it is for business purposes rather than just as a hobby would be selling for profit.
 
The much longer article I read on this, from another source, said they found two armor piercing cartridges in the hotel room that had tool marks consistent with equipment Haig had in his workshop. I'm no lawyer and I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night but I'm guessing the statute that covers manufacturing armor piercing ammo doesn't differentiate between how many rounds you manufacture before it becomes a crime.
 
The article seems to ramble about tracers and there is a short blurb at the end about two AP incendiary rounds. It seems like pretty common knowledge that selling hand loads without proper licensing and insurance is a fools errand. This guy proves it. You never know where your rounds are going to end up.
 
Glockula said:
The article seems to ramble about tracers and there is a short blurb at the end about two AP incendiary rounds. It seems like pretty common knowledge that selling hand loads without proper licensing and insurance is a fools errand. This guy proves it. You never know where your rounds are going to end up.
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It was very confusing as it said he was licensed. Hence my question as to what’s legal and not.

Between the media who doesn’t make an effort to learn before writing articles like this and the sloppy writing it sure looks like this guy is the sacarficial lamb.
 
Here is the relevant source document...

https://www.scribd.com/document/370...vit-of-McPeak-for-Douglas-Haig-arrest-warrant

I guess that I need to read the relevant law as well. The affidavit goes on at some length about tracer ammunition, which seems to be irrelevant to the charge of making armor piercing ammunition.

There is also a question about whether what he made and sold actually qualifies as armor piercing ammunition.
 
Reading the arrest warrant....it seems that the fellow was reloading API and AP ammo in 308 and selling it....which apparently is against the law without obtaining the proper permits. Methinks he is screwed....especially since they NEED to burn someone for the shooting, even if the AP ammo didn't play a part. Got to justify the investigation you know. And imagine having to dust and inspect a few thousand rounds then catalog every print (and partial) they would contain. Certain political types have been trying to get the leverage to burn the ammo manufacturers (as well as the guns themselves) for shootings....he's going to be crucified.
 
Here's a link with a bit more coverage of the arrest and charges. It also goes into more detail.

Mr. Haig was charged with conspiracy and manufacturing armor piercing ammo. Haig is an engineer and reloader. For years he has loaded ammo for sale to friends and acquaintances. He met the shooter at a gunshow and ended up selling him 720 rounds of tracer ammo. This was in boxes and had Haig's name on them. The police also maintain that they found some armor piercing ammo in the shooters motel room.The name led the cops to list Haig as a "Person of interest". Haig's name leaked out accidentally, the article explains. That led to death threats against him.

Anyway, that's in the article. The conspiracy charge is a catch all sort of thing...if making (loading) and selling armor piercing ammo is illegal in Nevada (or nationally) then it could be made out to be a conspiracy to sell it.

At this time it doesn't look like they connect him to the shooting other than this.

http://enewspaper.latimes.com/deskt...px?pubid=50435180-e58e-48b5-8e0c-236bf740270e

tipoc
 
Well boo on this. The shooter was responsible for all of this crap. All these other laws do is allow the feds or whoever to pile on to ensure something happens to this guy. Pretty much anyone can be scapegoated with all the crap on the books...
 
Finding ammo in that hotel room with the guy's name on it and apparently fingerprints (I'd imagine as a Lockheed engineer, he had to have a security clearance with fingerprints on file), plus interviews is ample evidence necessary to secure a search warrant. I'd imagine that the ammo he loaded could be "seized" under the warrant to compare with that at the scene. Furthermore, if they discovered that he was apparently making (depending the statute banning and restricting AP ammo, regulations on reselling ammo as a manufacturer, and the ITAR regulations) without proper licenses then they would charge him in a high profile case.

Moral of the story, don't make ammo and/or sell it without all of the proper business licenses, federal licenses, and payment of permits. The links below do not discuss state laws that may also apply.

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/firear...irearms-gun-control-act-definition-ammunition
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/10/4688
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/license-required-engage-business-selling-small-arms-ammunition
https://www.pmddtc.state.gov/compliance/documents/ITARRegReqFirearmsManufacturers.pdf

General overview
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/02/20/armor-piercing-ammunition/
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/reloading-w-armor-piercing-bullets.538947/

Summary, He needs a really good lawyer.
 
Does it matter if Haig “manufactured” the ammo with supplies provided by the shooter ie: bullets, powder, primers, brass?
 
Folks- Denton posted the the arrest warrant/affidavit. Haig made numerous contradictory statements to the FBI on more than one occasion. He stated that "he does reload ammunition, but does not offer these reloaded cartridges for sale to his customers". They even gave him an out and asked if any of the Vegas cases would have any toolmarks consistent with his reloading equipment- he was "adamant that they would not".
Unfired bullets with Haig's fingerprints, found in the Mandalay Bay hotel room, "were metallurgically classified as armor piercing/incendiary bullets". He does not have a license to manufacture armor piercing ammunition (though a partially completed FFL application was confiscated during a search of his home). His website is presently down, but while it was up the FBI recorded that he was selling 7.62 HEAPI (high explosive armor piercing incendiary) and that during a subsequent visit to his website those items had been removed.
So, I'm not going to go on.
I personally don't have anything against tracer or AP ammo.
But this is the deal....
1. When the FBI interrogates you, don't say anything without an attorney representing you.
2. Don't lie to the FBI.
3. If you're going to reload ammunition and sell it, ensure you're properly licensed and insured.
4. Just as an umbrella statement, when engaging in any aspect of the firearms industry, ensure that you're aware of- and following- all applicable laws.

He's not a scape goat. He's unlucky and unwise.

And just because it was such an interesting read, I'm re-linking the warrant from Denton's post.
 
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