Mandatory Service

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Trapper

I am in no way advocating that military service is the only viable option. I will say that it is, however, acceptable for a society to demand military service of a large number of its members during times of dire threat, i.e. WW2.
 
It seems you got either part of your postulation mixed up; I guess you're saying that one can't take the war elsewhere this way. Quite right. The reason is money - we don't spend 15% of our GNP on the .mil. Still we manage to have 6% of our population in a trained, mobilizable militia and need every man in his place. Geopolitics are another reason...

As for major wars and Finland, you might want to check your facts.


I think we are trying to overcome a language barrier here.

First, Finland is in a unique position as far as defense spending goes. Your nation decided long ago to capitulate after WWII to the Soviet Union rather than continue with a genuine defense. Finlandization is a sure a lot cheaper than having an actual defense as a nation.

Is Finland's "Air Force" still flying MIGs?

Second, Im guessing that the post WWII Finns are the last people on the face of the planet that should be offering advice on National Defense. The only ones less qualified to discuss the matter would be perhaps the Vichy French.
 
you can't hurt anyone by being passive

I disagree. Mainly on the grounds that

"The only thing required for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing"

In which case EVERYONE gets hurt. So not only is "you can't hurt anyone by being passive" false, it's more likely that you hurt the greater number by being passive.
 
Passivity is neutral. Those who do evil are causing the problem. No evil - no problem. Those who fight it serve to reverse it. Those who do nothing have no impact on the situation.
 
Passivity is neutral. Those who do evil are causing the problem. No evil - no problem. Those who fight it serve to reverse it. Those who do nothing have no impact on the situation.

No, passivity is tacit approval of actions or ideas. And, just because you want to be passive does not mean that someone won't force you to be active. Some day, you will be forced to choose.
 
Passivity is just fine and dandy, but if you have no desire to defend what you believe to be right, someone will, at some time, dictate to you what you can and cannot do.
 
I don't think he is refusing to defend what he thinks is right. I believe he is objecting to the idea that he should be forced to defend what someone else thinks is right.

Generally, I would agree with that. Within the context of the discussion of this thread, there would be very few examples for which I would agree with mandatory service. The threat we faced from Japan and Germany in the 30s and 40s is one example. War with the Soviet Union is another.
 
Hehe,
The Soviets/Nazis/Japanese (WWII): "Defend yourselves and die!"
The local government to the people: "Defend yourselves or die!"
 
Meaning:
The enemy will attack and kill you if you defend yourself.
The state will kill (or possibly imprison) you if you don't defend yourself.
 
Sorry for the reply lag, LaPistoletta.....

"you can't hurt anyone by being passive."
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Precisely! In order to effectively defend yourself and/or your society from agression, it is necessary to be able to project harm.


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"It is the aggressor who hurt people. It's not a failing bulletproof vest that kills its wearer, it is the bullet who strikes him."
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That is why your duty to yourself and your society requires stopping the aggressor.

The bullet proof vest won't do that, nor will a passive demeanor.


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I'm not assuming everyone agrees. Far from it.
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I am not exactly disagreeing with you. LaPistoletta, just seeing if you fully understand the issues here. You are doing very well for communicating in a second language, by the way.:)


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"My defence will not be effective, since the government has a tad bit more power than I do."
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This is where the rest of your society can help!


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"Also, we do not have a right to bear arms here."
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Actually, LaPistoletta, you DO have the right to keep and bear arms....
your government may not recognise the right, but their tyranny does not abrogate the existence of a natural right.


For what it is worth:

As with Golgo-13, I've done my military time and if I weren't too old and decrepit would serve again should the cause be a just one...the defense of the Constitution, for example.

The draft was probably a necessary thing in WWII as the forces arrayed against the U.S. required a lot of manpower to successfully confront.

My own personal example is the Viet Nam war. I think it was a criminal act for Johnson and that simpering academic nitwit MacNamera to draft citizens to fight against the Vietnamese in what was essentially a gross extension of their war of liberation from the French. Hindsight of course, but I spent 1967-1972 in the U.S. Army, wondering what it was all about and why the decisions were made that put us there.

Like someone posted above, I think both sides of this debate have merit, depending upon the circumstances.;)
 
Thanks for your answer, and for the compliment. I can safely say that the primary source of language training was not found within the public school system. ;)

The 'passive' comment, touché. :p
I guess that's true.

I still feel as though the duty you describe was born under arbitrary thinking, "just because". Some may say the same thing about rights, but who is to say what people must do? Can is one thing (can't steal, can't kill), but must?

Maybe I could spark a revolution. Now I sound like a marxist...

The right to bear arms, in my definition, is when it is cleary states that you can do that, such as the 2nd Amendment. We don't have that right in the law. One can get access to a weapon, but that's a [very strict] licence, not a right. You have to justify the ownership constantly by using it in competitions or such or else they'll take it away.

The Vietnam war seems to be the odd baby in the bunch. Not only because of the hippies with the flowers, but the war itself over there in the East. I'm still quite a baby this day (turning 18 this summer) so there's only documentaries to refer to for me. I know someone who was there but he is sensitive about the subject. To make some kind of a point, I would say that if draft is ever to be applied, it shouldn't be just for any cause. As you may know by now (;) ) I'm against draft period, but the one area that it could make sense is in homeland defence on homeland soil. I'd rather have the tech stuff do the job in other countries if that's not too naïve a comment?
 
If society (who or what is this?) is facing a truly dire threat, why would you think that the individual members of the society wouldn't volunteer to defend it, thereby acting in their own self-interest? And if the population at large won't defend the society under threat, maybe that's because the society doesn't deserve to be defended?

That's the last time I'll mention society, as society is a false concept. Mandantory service isn't performed in the service of some nebulous common good - it's performed at the behest of and for the benefit of the government. So the same question applies - if the government is morally deserving of service, why does it have to force people to serve?

My life is my only real asset, and I tend to be pretty jealous about guarding it. If someone wants some of my life, let them ask. I may say yes. I may say no. But if it's my life, then it's my decision how to use it. Anyone who tries to force me to give up my life is a scoundrel.

- Chris
 
We agree on most of your post, LaPistoletta...

"The right to bear arms, in my definition, is when it is cleary states that you can do that, such as the 2nd Amendment."
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This is an issue that even most Americans don't understand.
The original intent of the authors of the U.S. Constitution and the subsequent Bill of Rights, including the Second Amendment , was to provide a listing, or enumeration of what the founders considered to be the most basic, fundamental and valuable of so-called "Natural Rights", i.e., those rights considered to be inherent to the human condition.

Their listing of these rights merely enumerated them, but did not 'grant' them, as they were considered to exist by natural law.

"Endowed by their Creator" was how the language of the time described the source of natural law applied to humans.


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"We don't have that right in the law. One can get access to a weapon, but that's a [very strict] licence, not a right. You have to justify the ownership constantly by using it in competitions or such or else they'll take it away."
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Yes, I understand that.

It's is the same (or worse) here in Australia.:mad:
This demonstrates that the government is not willing to recognise your "natural right" insofar as it pertains to RKBA.

That is not to say your right doesn't exist, but rather your government does not allow you to excercise it. I know this seems a rather fine point, but it is an important one.;)


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"I would say that if draft is ever to be applied, it shouldn't be just for any cause. As you may know by now ( ) I'm against draft period, but the one area that it could make sense is in homeland defence on homeland soil. I'd rather have the tech stuff do the job in other countries if that's not too naïve a comment?"
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Yes, my position would be similar, I guess. It is difficult to say where one's "duty" to one's nation or society begins and ends. Perhaps it is indeed in the form of a sliding scale depending upon circumstances?

Chris Rhines:
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"If society (who or what is this?) is facing a truly dire threat, why would you think that the individual members of the society wouldn't volunteer to defend it, thereby acting in their own self-interest?"
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Well, that's all true enough as well. I think perhaps many in 'society' might need a bit of encouragement if the conflict is long or dirty, but then how does one define the parameters of 'national interest' without including the interest of the individuals constituting the nation?

Not that our politicians are unwilling to try!:uhoh:


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"And if the population at large won't defend the society under threat, maybe that's because the society doesn't deserve to be defended?"
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The demise of the Soviet Union and the Comblock certainly seems to have made that point well. :)


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"Anyone who tries to force me to give up my life is a scoundrel."
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Including, I suppose, the enemy of your nation if they aggress upon it?

Or not, depending upon the situation?

How do you know (in time)?

How does the enemy know to spare you?
 
Society is a false concept? If it's false it's a pretty useful concept for understanding the world and making policy.
 
I do not support mandatory service in the standing army, or in any kind of civil capacity. Both can force persons to act contrary to both their own beliefs and their own best interests. And in some (most?) cases, the only interests they actually serve are the government's.

What I might support, though, is mandatory militia training for both combat and emergency medical skills. It could perhaps be something similar to the one weekend a month, two weeks a year of the NG. In the case of emergencies such as natural disasters or invasions (or deposing really bad politicians), the militia, and I am including the emergency medicine aspect under the umbrella of 'militia', could largely take care of their communities without the need for 'official' assistance. They could be 'called up' only by their respective states, which keeps the prospect of misuse quite unlikely, as no politician wants pizzle off a militia when they live down the street or one county over. It would also keep the federal wallet suckers from being able to send us off on one of their foreign adventures, while increasing our national defense from what it is now.
 
Cool Hand, the only one here I may have been trying to "advice on National Defense" was the resident Swede. What is your beef? Why so... ahem... defensive :p ?

Our guys fly Hornets nowadays.

As to Finlandization,
Authorities on the foreign relations of Finland often argue that proponents of the term "Finlandization" persistently failed to recognize that Finland had achieved its negotiating position after successfully fending off military attacks of the Soviet Union in the Winter War (1939) and the Continuation War (1941). While the soviets certainly didn't actively fear the Finns, those who were in charge of handling relations with Finland have since openly admitted that relations with Finland were handled with the same care that they would have handled relations with a super-power. Furthermore, if Finland had attempted to get a "Finlandization" deal in the 1930s or 1920s, too soon after the Russian Revolution, the Civil War in Finland and the Russian Civil War, it would likely have wound up like Latvia, Estonia, and Lithuania.
from here. This situation where we then could "decide to capitulate to the Soviets" was achieved with a conscript army, a well regulated militia if you will. I don't consider comparing us to the Vichy French appropriate, to say the least.
 
I think perhaps many in 'society' might need a bit of encouragement if the conflict is long or dirty, but then how does one define the parameters of 'national interest' without including the interest of the individuals constituting the nation?
A good question, and illustrative of my point as well. Considering that the nation is made of of disparate individuals, it is tough to define a national interest as anything other than a wild guess. Closest I can come up with is the national interest is to allow the individuals who make up the nation to pursue their individual interests.

Of course, it doesn't work out that way in practice. National interests always seem to align themselves with the individual interests of the politicans and their buddies...

The demise of the Soviet Union and the Comblock certainly seems to have made that point well.
Excellent example. Iraq would be another one.

Including, I suppose, the enemy of your nation if they aggress upon it?

Or not, depending upon the situation?
Very much depending on the situation (Iraq, again.)

- Chris
 
"Beyond those monuments to heroism is the Potomac River, and on the far shore the sloping hills of Arlington National Cemetery with its row on row of simple white markers bearing crosses or Stars of David. They add up to only a tiny fraction of the price that has been paid for our freedom.... Their lives ended in places called Belleau Wood, The Argonne, Omaha Beach, Salerno and halfway around the world on Guadalcanal, Tarawa, Pork Chop Hill, the Chosin Reservoir, and in a hundred rice paddies and jungles of a place called Vietnam. Under one such marker lies a young man -- Martin Treptow -- who left his job in a small-town barbershop in 1917 to go to France with the famed Rainbow Division. There, on the western front, he was killed trying to carry a message between battalions under heavy artillery fire. We are told that on his body was found a diary. On the flyleaf under the heading, 'My Pledge,' he had written these words: 'America must win this war. Therefore, I will work, I
will save, I will sacrifice, I will endure, I will fight cheerfully and do my utmost, as if the issue of the whole struggle depended on me alone'." --Ronald Reagan

Have a good memorial day. They earned it for you....
 
Since when did THR become a Free Republic knock-off, so many nationalistic/fascist statements I keep hearing "Horst Wessel" in my head. Lovers of Liberty I know you are out there somewhere.

atek3
 
"Beyond those monuments to heroism is the Potomac River, and on the far shore the sloping hills of Arlington National Cemetery with its row on row of simple white markers bearing crosses or Stars of David. They add up to only a tiny fraction of the price that has been paid for our freedom.... Their lives ended in places called Belleau Wood, The Argonne, Omaha Beach, Salerno and halfway around the world on Guadalcanal, Tarawa, Pork Chop Hill, the Chosin Reservoir, and in a hundred rice paddies and jungles of a place called Vietnam. Under one such marker lies a young man -- Martin Treptow -- who left his job in a small-town barbershop in 1917 to go to France with the famed Rainbow Division. There, on the western front, he was killed trying to carry a message between battalions under heavy artillery fire. We are told that on his body was found a diary. On the flyleaf under the heading, 'My Pledge,' he had written these words: 'America must win this war. Therefore, I will work, I
will save, I will sacrifice, I will endure, I will fight cheerfully and do my utmost, as if the issue of the whole struggle depended on me alone'." --Ronald Reagan

atek-
The closest you will get to the Rainbow division is that sticker in the rear window of your car.
:D
 
atek3, for all you know there could be DemUnders regularly visiting the reloading forum. :)

There's a bunch more to THR than just the L&P and the Roundtable.

J. Garand, you don't know atek3. He doesn't know you. If you have a personal gripe with anybody's views, there's always PM and email. If you develop a personal opinion of somebody else's character, there's always PM and email. If you want to state insults or do flaming, that's just fine as long as it's PMs and emails.

Personal stuff within posts in a thread get me and my Grammaw to be just real active with Delete keys and all that old moderator threat stuff. :D

Art
 
Semantics stuff; purely opinion:

"Society" is an inclusive term. It doesn't imply homogeneity of anything, whether race, politics, manners, morals or mores except in a very, very general and broad sense. I think it's fair to say, as example of what I think I mean, that individual liberties are more a societal feature of the U.S. than in the old Soviet Union. I.e., the Declaration of Independece has important meaning to us.

One could consider a society to be a group living under a set of rules. This line of thought is what leads some to call the Constitution and the Bill of Rights to be a "Citizens' Rule Book".

As to "National Interest", the people of the U.S. rely on vast quantities of low cost energy for well-being and a good life/lifestyle. A purpose of government is to contribute to the health and welfare of the people. There is a national interest in smooth trade relations between Canada with its supplies of natural gas and the U.S. with its markets and needs for imported natural gas.

(See? You thought I'd bring up the Middle East, didn't you? :D)

Just points to ponder...

Art
 
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