Mandatory Service

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But think about why this issue is debated today (and not only here on THR)... because some people think the US military is already stretching its human resources.
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When an organizatin realizes it is stretched to thin it generaly scales back. Maybe the leaders who are contemplating conscription should consider where we actually have a "vital interest". If for some reason an organisatin beleives it shoudl not scale back it hires new people. if they are unable to hire new people, they provide greater incentive for potential people. if the going wage for an enlisted man were doubled people would be standing in line to join.
there are plenty of options for the government to sustain an army rather than putting a gun to someones head and ordering them to serve.
 
Some you draft naysayers apparently believe that military service should be reserved for the less financially fortunate, those who have less education, live in"poorer" neighborhoods, while doctors, lawyers, Wall Street brokers and the financial secure should not have to stoop to serving their nation (note, please, I did not say government).
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No, we are saying it should be reserved for those who decide to serve of their own free will. in WWII many many people volunteered, even high paid hollywood types.

are only the military those who serve the nation? I think not. I teach engineering. I am raising up the next generation of people that will build our cars and roads and military weapons. Is that also not serving my nation? as i stated in my earlier post, anyone who goes to work every day and is productive serves this nation. whether that person is a bank president, or a janitor.
 
In the context of what Trapperjohn quoted from my post, I was referring to military service.

In wartime, when the survival of a nation is at stake, one's form of livelihood almost always is subordinate to the nation's requirements.

Where is it stated that a doctor's job is more important than fighting for his country? Or that a college professor is needed more than the student he is teaching?

I am afraid we will always have those who can rationalize their discontent with excellent reasoning. That does not necessarily make them morally right nor better than their neighbor.

Please note that I have never said that military conscription is the correct course during peacetime. We'll always have young people who prefer wearing a uniform to having no job at all.

However, when War threatens the very existence of me and my loved ones--my job be damned--I will gladly serve alongside draftees who quite obviously have more courage and sense than those who can glibly deny their responsibilities.
 
It seems that all you are really saying is that the government is a better judge of what it is important for me to do than I am. Sorry, but I don't agree.

In wartime, when the survival of a nation is at stake, one's form of livelihood almost always is subordinate to the nation's requirements.
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Is that the case now? This nation did without conscription in every war before the Civil War. If ever there was a war where the survival of the nation was at stake, it would have been the Revolutionary War, and that was fought and won w/o conscription.

Where is it stated that a doctor's job is more important than fighting for his country? Or that a college professor is needed more than the student he is teaching?
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Where is it stated that fighting is more important than being a doctor? Or that the college professor is not needed? These statements are senseless.

I am afraid we will always have those who can rationalize their discontent with excellent reasoning. That does not necessarily make them morally right nor better than their neighbor.
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Quite so. I would say exactly the same thing about those who try to rationalize slavery in the guise of what a nation "needs."

However, when War threatens the very existence of me and my loved ones--my job be damned--I will gladly serve alongside draftees who quite obviously have more courage and sense than those who can glibly deny their responsibilities.
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Enlist and enjoy, then. I believe I can better protect my loved ones by staying with them rather than by being a uniformed government slave. I already served in the military once as a volunteer. I might even do it again. It will be my choice if do. No amount of neo-fascist ranting about the nation and no amount of name calling (e.g. coward) will change that.
 
However, when War threatens the very existence of me and my loved ones--my job be damned--I will gladly serve alongside draftees who quite obviously have more courage and sense than those who can glibly deny their responsibilities.
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I think most men in this country would volunteer if they felt our country was in imminent danger. I would, I feel most people on this board would as well. someone threatens to invade, sign me up! you wont need to draft me i will volunteer.

But what right do you have to tell someone what their responsiblity is? you seem to picture hoards of babarians pouring through our borders to sack our nation. Wars we fight today tend to be high tech wars. Wars fought with weapons that we were able to develop because we are freedom loving captialist.
in wartime the whole country becomes a war machine. It was in large part due to our industrial might that we won WWII. Admiral (Yammamodo I believe) warned the emperor that Japan could not win a long war against the US because of our industrial complex. We couldnt have won the war without peopel running hte factories and developing new weapons.

Where is it stated that a doctor's job is more important than fighting for his country? Or that a college professor is needed more than the student he is teaching?
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where is it stated that a soldiers job is more important than any of those other jobs? my point is anyone that works serves this nation. It seems you feel the only way to serve this nation is to be in the military.
I love america, if i decide I can better serve it by joining the military I would.

Remeber this is a debate about FORCED conscription, it was posted in the context of peacetime.
This has nothing to do with whether any of us would volunteer. Being against a forced draft does not make us unwilling to volunteer. And not being in the military does not mean we arent serving our country.
 
Golgo-13: Strange you should mention the Civil War and it's experiment. That form of the draft gave ample opportunity for people such as you to HIRE others to do your job for you.

It must have been really patriotic to stand on the street and watch your hirelings parading past with Old Glory flying proudly. But, then, it was your RIGHT to exhibit cowardice.

We cannot blame our government for our own personal failings. Governments frequently change, some for the better, some for the worse. Where in the Constitution does it say you have the option to pick and choose which laws to obey?

We have the option to change our government. But, if we are defeated in war, the government that takes charge will definitely change that. Then will you be happy that you sat on your rear and "let George do it"?
 
I don't live in America, don't know why you automatically assumed that.

I will do what I see as the best thing to do for me. No one may demand of me that I serve him and neither may I do the same.
I don't care one bit for "patriotism", that is collectivism.
 
It just depends on how many benefits you have to offer...
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The same ones the corporate world offers:
1. Money
2. Medical coverage
3. Retirment plans
4. Money
5. Paid vacations
6. Money

and so forth. People voluntarily take dangerous jobs all the time, if the money is right.
 
As much as most people here dislike Presidents like Clinton, they seem to have no problem having him as Commander in Chief...with the only check on his actions being equally distrusted Congress and acquiescent Supreme Court. Draft means you could be sent to someplace where you don't think you belong to do things you wouldn't want to do...and have no real choice about it. What's so noble about being a pawn of your government?
 
I don't believe that each of us, individually, is a pawn of the government. We are pawns of the society that we, collectively, create and nurture. If our government is not to be trusted with the raising of a standing army through the use of the draft, it is not the government's fault; it's ours, for a government is nothing more than a semblance of what a society is or what it permits.
 
If our government is not to be trusted with the raising of a standing army through the use of the draft, it is not the government's fault
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You and I differ here. I don't think any entity should be empowered to conscript others.

a government is nothing more than a semblance of what a society is or what it permits
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100% with you on this, though.
 
I like Heinlein's idea; no full citizen status unless one has served in the military.
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Heinleins idea was pretty much Fascist. It is a terrible idea. I would be more inclined to require payment of taxes before you can vote. That way, those who live of the Government tit cant demand more of our hard earned dollars.
makes sense that you get a say in what the Gov does with your own money, and if you arent giving it your own money you have no right to say what it does with other peoples money.

Rememeber, we have a great military because we have a great country, not the other way around. the strength of our country is due mostly to the freedoms we enjoy that have allowed us to prosper economically and technologically.
 
Also, FWIW, in Starship Troopers, government service as a path to the franchise was not limited to military service. There were other avenues open, but Heinlein did present the military path as being the most glamorous and desirable.
 
La Pistoletta:

I apologize for thinking you might be an American. A careful reading of your posts would certainly have disabused me of that perception.

By the way, my nationality, my true identity, my place of residence, virtually all other information about me are divulged in my personal THR profile. I see no reason to lurk behind noms de plume, or other secretive ploys. I have nothing to hide.

Despite your claim otherwise, "patriotism" is not collectivism; it is a state of mind.
 
No problem, in fact, maybe I should take it as a compliment? :)

I like the place I was born in. I like some of the laws here (Sweden), such as the abolishment of the death penalty, the law against use of physical force not only towards adults but also children and so forth. Then there is a myriad of laws that are preposterous.
I detest the rule and the democracy. What I like about Sweden is the nature and the relative safety of the neighbourhood.
Would that, in your eyes, make me a patriot?

As for the military, I respect those who would willingly defend against the enemy (including you). It's a good thing if the cause is right (I'm not a turn-the-other-cheek kind of person), but when blackmail is involved, the means do not justify, but rather foul the ends.
 
Do you care for your countrymen? Well not the crack heads and the child molesters. I care for the honest ones that don't take hand outs and think about the future of the country and want it to be a free one.

Are you proud of your nation's achievements and what it can offer to the world? Yes and no. I'm proud of what the country did in WWII but not necessary what it's doing to itself regarding the loss of rights due to the WOT or the WOD. Are we going after the real BGs? Don't know. Possibly not. Are we prepared to do what ever it takes to win. If not let's not go by 1/2 measure.

Would you take personal risks for your country and the values it is based upon? The values it is based upon today or those in vogue tomorrow? Seems to change every 4 years.
Exactly what values is it based on anymore. Gay marriage. Uncontrolled growth of the government. Redistribution of wealth. Is it ok to shoot down passenger aircraft if they get hijacked to keep them from hitting an unknown target? It's not supposed to be an easy answer but a questions well worth asking.

I don't favor legalized drugs, the Patriot act, databases, no knock raids or no-search-warrant searches. I'm not all together comfortable with the current law and current law enforcement as my Master. Where are our national values on these issues? How bout yours?

Not sure I want to bleed out to protect all that, or have my kids die for it either. Tell me where the nation stands on these issues and I have an answer for you.

That would make you a patriot in my book.
I don't care if I make your list NFI. In my book a patriot is someone willing to step out of line when he or she sees wrong and oppose it.
What it took to be patriotic in the past and in the furure may be different things. A thinking man will keep up with the differences.


Regards,

S-
 
Trooper:
Do I care about my countrymen? I care about individual rights.
Am I proud of my country's achievements? No, since I have had no part in any such achievements.
Since the values of the state of my country so drastically differ from mine, I would not support them at all. I would not die for my country, since that negates all beneficial effects that could come out of it. And that's not even considering the nature of the country in question.
 
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