Mandatory Service

[Joe Demko]

Werewolf,
You presume to know a lot about the people in this thread who disagree with you. Stop personalizing. Hiding behind attributing quotes to "this person" doesn't cut it. Address the ideas being discussed, not your personal opinion of whether I am shortsighted or selfish. If you can't stick to ideas, butt out.

 

[La Pistoletta]

Werewolf, you have proclaimed yourself that you are collectivist. Even being proud of what one's friends achieve is a logical flaw in one's thinking, unless they did what they did with your help. When it comes to communities and nations, being proud is even more farfetched. I have had nothing to do with any of that, so why should I be proud? Because I happen to live within its artificially constructed boundaries? Because I can speak the language?

 

[trooper]

Affection towards friends/relatives is just a natural thing. Pride doesn't only stem from having achieved something yourself, but also from simply being part of something, be it a sports team, a nation or a bond of friendship.

If a good friend of mine does something remarkable I'm proud of him.

Call that collectivism if you like... to me it's just a facet of humanity. If you have no feelings about your fellow humans you must be pretty lonely.

It's just silly to pretend that a person doesn't somehow depend on others. No man is an island...


Regards,

Trooper

 

[Obiwan]

"K-12 education can be fulfilled by private or home schooling. Bad comparison."

Nice dodge....but the important part is that education is REQUIRED because it is deemed to be for the common good....good for all of us to be at least exposed to knowledge whether it sinks in or not.

But in return, our children have to put in their time learning...whether in public private, or home schools....they have to be there.

So is that slavery?????(Ian...you should immediately work to free the children!)

And if we, as a nation, decide that basic military instruction is a good thing...how is that remarkably different?

Another question......aliens that join the military to help them aquire citizenship....are they slaves????

Since they made a choice to join...but arguably because of the "carrot" of citizenship....

Vi9er...

I imagine that the founding fathers would be sickened if they saw how few of America's sons would step up to the plate to help defend their country.

They formed a country....not a place where people that wanted to be alone could "hang out"

They could have just walked west if they didn't want to create an interdependent society. Instead they banded together to fight against a common foe...for freedom.

Thanks to their efforts, we now are a nation of people that can feel FREE to CHOOSE to let someone else do all the heavy lifting.....

That goodness we have a standing VOLUNTEER Army...since we would all waste precious time waiting for everyone to make a personal decision to fight

 

[Werewolf]

Golgo-13 proclaimed:

If I get merchandise in the mail that I did not order, I'm free to keep it w/o paying for it or to send it back if I choose. In either case, I've no "duty" to the vendor that sent it to me. The "benefits" of society that you describe fall into the same category, especially when we get to talking about benefits beyond basic things like roads. I didn't order a great many of the "benefits" this society offers, so I don't feel any duty to pay for them with my life.

trooper said it better than I: "No man is an island".

Golgo, your statement above pretty clearly proclaims that you see yourself as an island - independent of the group and not requiring the assistance of the group to get along and survive.; that you don't need society nor all the "benefits" it provides. To be honest I actually admire folks like that - if they truly live independent of society and refuse it's benefits. It would take great courage to live that way. The reality of the situation though is that the days of truly independent living are long gone and impractical for many reasons.

I suppose one could move to Alaska, Montana or any other wilderness state and maybe make a go of it without the "benefits" society provides but it'd be a pretty rough row to howe; growing one's own food, building one's home out wood you cut and planked, manufacturing one's own weapons with which to hunt, watching one's children die of simple diseases treatable by anti-biotics which you don't have the skill to make. Then of course there'd be those folks with big sticks that decide they want what you have and since there's lots more of them than you enjoying the feeling of them taking it away.

It's fun being independent. Not needing society and all it's benefits that you didn't order. Right? Riiiiiiiiight!

I'd suggest to all you out there that don't think you need society to make it thru life give it a try for about 6 months or so.

Man is a social animal. He depends on others as well as himself for survival. Governments are the glue that holds the social group together for without it there would be anarchy.

Just like the individual at the micro level, the group, at the macro level (nation), has an instinct to survive for the survival of the group results in the continuing survival of it's members. If the group requires the service of it's members to survive then it has a duty to gain that service in what ever manner necessary. Ideally the service is given willingly. If not willingly then pragmatism requires the service be forced. If enough members of the group refuse then it is likely the group will cease being a group.

Regarding the draft - well - ideally the the cause for requiring service is one that the members of the group will willingly serve. If not - as some others have stated then maybe that group (nation) should cease to exist as a group. But that doesn't - hasn't - nor will it - dissuade the group from continuing it's existence thru the use of forced service.

 

[La Pistoletta]

OK, so now we've laid forth our stances. Where should the discussion head next? Many people here are opponents of self-ownership, and some are proponents. It seems likely not to change.

 

[trooper]

Hey, thanks, Werewolf... I have to admit though that I didn't exactly coin that phrase...

 

[vi9er]

I imagine that the founding fathers would be sickened if they saw how few of America's sons would step up to the plate to help defend their country.

I'm thinking your are more jaded than I. (I hope)Are you assuming that because we don't agree with forced service, that we would not defend the country?

And why do you feel that so few would defend the country? All armed service branches are meeting, or close to meeting, their quotas. There are currently about 3 million members of the military(active and reserve). There are 26.4 million veterans. We aren't lacking in troops.

In the Revolutionary war, the Minuteman(read Militia) weren't conscripts, they were volunteers. They volunteered to fight and could leave at any time. They trained together, of their own free will.

If they was an attack on or shores, it would be quashed quickly, and violently. But how can you claim that because someone doesnt' want to fight for or in another country, that makes them less of an American?

And I still havent gotten an answer from anyone about how to handle the 400 some odd thousand discipline problems.

Ed

 

[Joe Demko]

Werewolf,
For the final time, either discuss ideas or I will not have any dialog with you at all. I have kept my personal opinions and thoughts about the people posting to this thread to myself. If you cannot do the same then I bid you good day.

 

[Werewolf]

Werewolf,
For the final time, either discuss ideas or I will not have any dialog with you at all. I have kept my personal opinions and thoughts about the people posting to this thread to myself. If you cannot do the same then I bid you good day.

I did discuss your idea. The one proclaiming that you didn't order the benefits of society and thus felt no debt to society. The "No man is an island" concept. I am sorry you seem to take that concept personally.

Actually - rather than rebutting my arguments you are taking the rather common tac of claiming that I am attacking you instead of your idea when in fact it is your idea that I took on.

 

[La Pistoletta]

Werewolf: "Necessity is the plea of every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants, it is the creed of slaves." William Pitt, 1783

What do you have to say about that? It would seem to make our point.

 

[trooper]

Let's see... I think there are two extremes regarding that matter.

No. 1 would be the old saying "The end justify the means", while the other one would be "I won't accept any social regulations whose primary reasons are factual necessities."

Obviously, we tend to take different spots on that scale, but IMO both of those extreme opinions are wrong. Life's a compromise, always. SOME factual necessities are just that... necessary.


Regards,

Trooper

 

[La Pistoletta]

That is just a moderation just because principle. It doesn't hold any value or reason. "Life's a compromise"? How? It was a compromise in Soviet, Germany as well. Would you care to make a real point to discuss?

 

[Foreign Devil]

Well if you want to go around wielding quotations here you are:

An enlightened zeal for the energy and efficiency of government will be stigmatized as the offspring of a temper fond of despotic power and hostile to the principles of liberty. An over-scrupulous jealousy of danger to the rights of the people, which is more commonly the fault of the head than of the heart, will be represented as mere pretense and artifice, the stale bait for popularity at the expense of the public good. It will be forgotten, on the one hand, that jealousy is the usual concomitant of love, and that the noble enthusiasm of liberty is apt to be infected with a spirit of narrow and illiberal distrust. On the other hand, it will be equally forgotten that the vigor of government is essential to the security of liberty; that, in the contemplation of a sound and well-informed judgment, their interest can never be separated; and that a dangerous ambition more often lurks behind the specious mask of zeal for the rights of the people than under the forbidden appearance of zeal for the firmness and efficiency of government. History will teach us that the former has been found a much more certain road to the introduction of despotism than the latter, and that of those men who have overturned the liberties of republics, the greatest number have begun their career by paying an obsequious court to the people; commencing demagogues, and ending tyrants.

Alexander Hamilton, FEDERALIST. No. 1

 

[trooper]

That is just a moderation just because principle.

No, it's not. You said that a draft is always wrong, no matter what a situation your nation is in. If your country is being invaded by a foreign military and not enough people volunteer for military service a draft is a matter of survival.

If you stay true to your personal values, don't resort to that option and your country gets destroyed and occupied you just lost the opportunity to exercize ANY of the rights you presume to have.

You would rather die than betray your values? Brave, my friend, then I suggest you stop paying your taxes to your "oppressive government", claim your god-given right to carry a full-auto AK while going grocery-shopping and what not...



Regards,

Trooper

 

[Werewolf]

La Pistolleta makes a valid observation concerning my tag line:

Werewolf: "Necessity is the plea of every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants, it is the creed of slaves." William Pitt, 1783

What do you have to say about that? It would seem to make our point.

Well - it would make y'alls point if the world and everything in it was black and white. Fortunately it's not. There are varying degrees associated with every issue.

In this case I'd have to reply to Mr. Pitt - Not always...

 

[Obiwan]

"But how can you claim that because someone doesnt' want to fight for or in another country, that makes them less of an American? "

I didn't

And I am quite sure that there are many members of our volunteer Army that would rather not....but they follow orders...thank goodness!

Imagine how well our military would work if troops were free to decide which orders to follow....where to go, etc....

nope....don't wanna ...I'm taking the day off...send someone else on patrol.

I may be jaded...but I think a large portion of our population would simply crawl under the bed and hide if they were faced with the prospect of fighting for their country.

They are still Americans...I simply don't think they are to be admired

 

[La Pistoletta]

Foreign Devil, what's the problem then, assuming your position in the matter, when your military is already the most powerful there is? And it probably wouldn't go down in size in the event of an invasion.
Same for trooper: there are already enough human resources. And grocery shop owners decide whether or not I have the right to bear an AK in their shop (if it wasn't for the regulations, of couse), and they probably wouldn't allow it.

Werewolf: I think I'd hear you from over here sooner than he would from over there.
But seriously, when it comes to rights, one of the objectives is making sure is stays black and white, as you put it. That's a necessary (oops, I guess I tripped) thing to do in order to prevent relativity regarding them, and thus ensuring their validity at all times.

 

[trooper]

Come on, Pistoletta, we talked specifically about a case in which a draft becomes necessary. Of course it would be pointless to introduce it if you don't need it.

The thing is, I'm not convinced that enough people would volunteer in case of a national emergency. And as you might have noticed, I can't rely on US military resources because I'm not a US citizen and don't live in America...


Regards,

Trooper

 

[vi9er]

Obiwan, you are correct, the volunteer military that we have now, signed the dotted line. They agreed of their own free will that they will follow orders. I'm not saying in any way shape or form that they shouldn't.

But they volunteered, you are asying that we can take non volunteers, and make them fight in area's not America! You lose the argument that they are taking her for granted once they are forced to go to war in Somalia, Vietnam, etc.

Ed

 

[Foreign Devil]

No no, my point was the draft (or other legislation that we wouldn't ordinarily accept) could be justified in dire emergencies. I don't support it at the moment. I can't think of realistic circumstances in which I'd support it today. But at one time in our history, yes.

 

[La Pistoletta]

I see. So what do you propose as punishment for those who refuse? And those who refuse violently?

 

[Foreign Devil]

You can't get around the idea of using force to make people do things they would otherwise not do. But if the choice is between that and the destruction of the country yes I would support the draft. In war, or major crises, we do a lot of things that are not acceptable otherwise. If we're so committed to our principles that we can't bring ourselves to do what it takes to survive in the face of a major catastrophe then we will be destroyed. This is no different from the pacifist who cannot bring himself to use deadly force to defend himself.

Civil liberties were seriously restricted in the civil war, world wars 1 and 2. Most of them were restored in the aftermath. Not everything that was done in these cases was necessary or acceptable(internments, suspension of habeas corpus, suppression of the free press, etc.). But for the most part they were later rescinded. The draft is a lot less onerous than these things I just listed, in my opinion., and in the case of WW2 it had a lot of positive consequences for society(ie the use of the GI bill to send ex servicemen to college).

And as I said I can't see any circumstances under which the draft would be necessary today.

 

[La Pistoletta]

You haven't answered the question yet.

 

[Foreign Devil]

I won't. It's not important. The point is that society has a duty to preserve itself, and you have a duty to your community that goes beyond filling out a 1040EZ every year.