Mannlicher stocks

[conan32120]

Just a curiosity couple of questions to those in the know. If the best accuracy comes from a free floating barrel how do mannlicher stocks do? Does the barrel band kill the harmonics? Do they heat up faster? Is the mannlicher just a thing of beauty or can it compete with a "normal" rifle?

 

[Dr T]

Good question. I have wondered the same thing. I only have two examples to judge by. After a lot of handload tuning, I was able to get my Ruger No. 1 RSI 30-06 down to about 1.25" at 100 yards with a Hornady Interlock FS 180 gr Spire Point over H380 (I tried a bunch of different bullets). On the other hand, my CZ 452 FS is very accurate with about everything I have tried.

I really like the aesthetic. And, the No. 1 is the best handling and pointing rifle I own so it's inherent hunting (as opposed to paper) accuracy is quite good.

 

[I6turbo]

Good question. I have wondered the same thing. I only have two examples to judge by. After a lot of handload tuning, I was able to get my Ruger No. 1 RSI 30-06 down to about 1.25" at 100 yards with a Hornady Interlock FS 180 gr Spire Point over H380 (I tried a bunch of different bullets). On the other hand, my CZ 452 FS is very accurate with about everything I have tried.

I really like the aesthetic. And, the No. 1 is the best handling and pointing rifle I own so it's inherent hunting (as opposed to paper) accuracy is quite good.

Just a curiosity couple of questions to those in the know. If the best accuracy comes from a free floating barrel how do mannlicher stocks do? Does the barrel band kill the harmonics? Do they heat up faster? Is the mannlicher just a thing of beauty or can it compete with a "normal" rifle?

I have 6 Mannlicher rifles in various chamberings, and about 18 more conventional-stocked rifles of the same brand (CZ) and same chamberings. In every case, the Mannlicher stocked versions shoot at least as well as the guns with the other styles of stocks with similar barrel profiles. (The heavy Varmint barrels shoot the best, but that’s not really an apples-to/apples comparison.)

Furthermore, the best-shooting guns in the bunch do not tend to be the free-floated ones (some are free-floated and some aren’t). Instead, the best shooters tend to be the ones with a little pressure between the end of the forearm and the barrel. If I had a gun that wasn’t shooting up to par, the first thing I would do is to try shimming the barrel with a small piece of inter tube, or something similar. If that didn’t work, I might free float it.

 

[marksman13]

My full stocked hunting rifles shoot as well as my other conventionally stocked hunting rifles. I wouldn’t want a target rifle with a full stock, but I don’t think you are really affecting hunting accuracy with a full stock. At least, not enough to matter.

 

[Rlafever]

Col. Jeff Cooper said mannlicher stocked rifles made good walking sticks for hiking in mountainous terrain . Grab it near the muzzle and use it for a hiking staff. I think he was probably right. I always think they look cool though

 

[Chuck R.]

I've owned 2, a Steyr MOD M in 30-06 and a Rem M7 in .350RM from the custom shop.

Both shot pretty well, really no different from a regular factory half stock rifle. Right around 1 MOA, sub with some load work. Perfectly adequate for a hunting rifle.

Both of mine have moved on though. The Steyr was sold outright, and the M7 was dropped into a carbon fiber stock to shave weight.

 

[Fyrstyk]

All my full stocked (to the muzzle) guns are muzzle loaders, and they shoot as good as I can hold them.

 

[Dave DeLaurant]

I consider the full-stocked wood and steel hunting rifle both normal and beautiful, just not particularly contemporary. I love the things, but I'll freely admit these stocks are about style rather than any practical benefits.

The archetypal example was the Mannlicher–Schönauer M1903 6.5x54 carbine, which was light (7-ish lbs.) and handy with a thin barrel, designed to be carried around on foot in the more vertical parts of central Europe. I finally acquired one of these earlier this year, after decades of lusting:



This rifle is the source of the 'Mannlicher stock' designation, though full stocked long arms go back as far as the matchlock era, and ironically Ferdinand Mannlicher doesn't appear to have had much input into the Mannlicher-Schönauer.

It isn't a bench rest rifle. You won't (or shouldn't) shoot strings with it long enough to cause heat mirage or singe the stock. Accuracy is either adequate for hunting, or somewhat more than adequate. Probably not sub-MOA out of the box, but they can pleasantly surprise you sometimes.

BTW, there are other types of full stocks. Military arms were often given stout stocks and handguards almost to the muzzle to serve better as a bayonet handle and club. Full stocks on muzzle loaders were there to protect the all-important ramrod from damage,

 

[doubleh]

My full stocked 30-06 was a 2 MOA rifle with Remington 150 gr. CoreLokd ammo. Then acra-glass appeared and I gave it a glass bed job from the rear of the action to the tip of the barrel which made it into a 1 1/4 MOA rifle with the same ammo. Good enough for me sez I.

 

[CraigC]

MOA from these two, without much effort. I've always had a thing for them but have owned plain few of the things. Fell in love with them after reading about the MS, a gorgeous little Kimber in a Ross Seyfried article of the mid 1980's and finding a wonderful Sako 6.5x55 that I couldn't afford.

 

[conan32120]

M7 was dropped into a carbon fiber stock to shave weight.

did it gain any accuracy that you saw?

 

[.45Coltguy]

I had for a time a Ruger RSI in .308 that needed just a little work on the stock/barrel pressure towards the front. Became a very accurate rifle. When my older son tried it out, he decided he wanted it! He still has it. Neat rifle. So, yes, the Mannlicher stock work fine. And look good doing it.

 

[Chuck R.]

did it gain any accuracy that you saw?

Not anything I can substantiate. The 350 went through 3 stocks:

The original laminated Mannlicher from the custom shop, with bedded recoil lug was sub MOA with some load development
HS Precision M7 stock, just dropped in a torqued IAW HS instructions, still SUB MOA.
Manners EH8, epoxy bedded with marine tech, still sub MOA.

The Mannlicher and HS stock both had pressure pads in the forearm. The Manners is a true FF stock. There was a POI change with all, but the switch to the Manner's was the most drastic, and did require a new round of load development.

It's till accurate, and still killing stuff, just a heck of a lot lighter doing it.. it's now under 7lbs "all up".

I never saw any kind of POI change with the laminated stock, it was very stable and that was with hunting on the east side of WA state.

 

[kimberkid]

Just a curiosity couple of questions to those in the know. If the best accuracy comes from a free floating barrel how do mannlicher stocks do? Does the barrel band kill the harmonics? Do they heat up faster? Is the mannlicher just a thing of beauty or can it compete with a "normal" rifle?

I’ve got a factory 10-22 Mannlicher and another I built with a F/F barrel, both have improved triggers … shooting 40 grain CCI Standard velocity ammo at 50yards they both shoot pretty equal groups, I don’t have another Mannlicher to compare with.

I’ll get a picture of them when I get home

 

[Litetrigger]

I'm not a Mannlicher collector but I do happen to have a few more than the average bear. In my experience with these and rifles with conventional stocks I've seen no diference in accuracy when comparing them with my other best and most accurate hunting rifles. Nor did I expect to see any difference, why should I?
In his opening statement, the OP offers the presumption that rifles with "free floating" barrels are, or should be, more accurate than non-free floating rifles. And thereby, rifles with barrel length Mannlicher type stocks may suffer an accuracy disadvantage. Which further implies that even rifles with standard length non-free floating stocks suffer a similar handicap. Which is contrary to my own experience and observation which is that a tightly fitted and properly bedded stock offers the best, and most reliable accuracy which a rifle is capable. Note the emphasies on properly bedded because free floating a barrel has become popular because at the industrial level such stocks are cheaper and easier to manufacture and likewise at the professinal and amateur level because it's so much faster and easier to gouge an oversize slot in a stock than learning how and taking the time to bed it properly. Among the most accurate factory rfles I and many other shooters have tested are the Remington Models 721 and 722. Derspite their obviously plain and economic manufacture, the Remington of those days knew how bed a barreled action and their rifles made the mystical sub-minute group a reliable reality.
Here is a quintet of Mannlicher style rifles: Rifles at top and bottom are real Mannlichers made in at the Austrian factory. Others, going down, include a .17 javalina made by Paul Marquart at the legendary A&M rifle shop, a SAKO .222 Rem and .260 Rem from Remington's Custom Shop. Other pics are with Mannlicher 9.3X62 with boar and mouflon bagged in Czechoslovakia..

 

[Roverguy]

So, “Mannlicher stock” is a U.S. colloquialism. They are properly known as “stutzen” which in German has come to colloquially mean “short” but originally meant “sturdy” or “protected”. These were stalking rifles and the Bergstutzen, mountain rifle, was full stocked and was indeed to be used in part as a walking or climbing aid.

In theory, a full stocked wood rifle should be subject to point or impact shifts with the influence of humidity etc. My suspicion is that the generally shorter heavier barrels of the stutzen combined with the barrel band negate the effect. Also, I don’t recall seeing any bargain priced stutzens which may be helpful. I have two at the moment - an H&R that is closer to 2 MOA than 1.5 MOA but I built that stock, so, may bad, and a Persian M44 Mauser that is more 1 MOA than 1.5 MOA, which I find remarkable.

 

[.45Coltguy]

I'm not a Mannlicher collector but I do happen to have a few more than the average bear. In my experience with these and rifles with conventional stocks I've seen no diference in accuracy when comparing them with my other best and most accurate hunting rifles. Nor did I expect to see any difference, why should I?
In his opening statement, the OP offers the presumption that rifles with "free floating" barrels are, or should be, more accurate than non-free floating rifles. And thereby, rifles with barrel length Mannlicher type stocks may suffer an accuracy disadvantage. Which further implies that even rifles with standard length non-free floating stocks suffer a similar handicap. Which is contrary to my own experience and observation which is that a tightly fitted and properly bedded stock offers the best, and most reliable accuracy which a rifle is capable. Note the emphasies on properly bedded because free floating a barrel has become popular because at the industrial level such stocks are cheaper and easier to manufacture and likewise at the professinal and amateur level because it's so much faster and easier to gouge an oversize slot in a stock than learning how and taking the time to bed it properly. Among the most accurate factory rfles I and many other shooters have tested are the Remington Models 721 and 722. Derspite their obviously plain and economic manufacture, the Remington of those days knew how bed a barreled action and their rifles made the mystical sub-minute group a reliable reality.
Here is a quintet of Mannlicher style rifles: Rifles at top and bottom are real Mannlichers made in at the Austrian factory. Others, going down, include a .17 javalina made by Paul Marquart at the legendary A&M rifle shop, a SAKO .222 Rem and .260 Rem from Remington's Custom Shop. Other pics are with original Mannlicher 9.3X62 with boar and couple of mouflon bagged in Europe.View attachment 1176038View attachment 1176040View attachment 1176041View attachment 1176042

I believe the OP was just asking a couple questions regarding Mannlicher stocks. Perhaps he doesn't have one or if he does, just curious about them.
If some have rifles with Mannlicher stocks and they are accurate; excellent. I think OP was simply curious about them.

 

[Rodfac]

I've had a Sako L461 Mannlicher stocked for the last 20 years or so...in .222 Magnum....it's my woodchuck rifle here on our farm. Accuracy has been very good with several loads that will do MOA for 5-shots.

I wondered if the weighty fore end steel schnable would affect accuracy but have found that it doesn't to any measurable amount. The bb'l on this Sako is medium heavy and with a small bore caliber like the .222 Mag, no doubt contributes to its accuracy.

All in all, it's a fairly light weight rifle with a 2-7 Leupold scope mounted; just right for stalking fence lines. The OP might inquire those that have larger calibers regarding bb'l heating effects and also muzzle blast from the shorter tube lengths.

Best Regards, Rod

​

 

[conan32120]

It was just a curiosity that drove my questions, lgs had a purty Lil rifle with a mannlicher and it got me a wondering

 

[.38 Special]

I've only had two. I really like the look, but as @Dave DeLaurant notes, the only "advantage" is cosmetic. They both were of average accuracy - I could count on "real world" 2 MOA, which I consider a realistic standard for general purpose hunting rifles, at least back in the 80s - and neither responded especially well to the accurizing techniques of the day. That is to say, the usual tricks helped, but it became obvious that neither gun (a Ruger No. 1 and a Ruger M77) was ever going to be a match winner.

So for my money, they are typically about as accurate as the average hunting rifle, but probably are somewhat limited, if you are comparing them to one of today's (supposedly) half-minute guns.

 

[Hookeye]

Nose cap did not bear hard on the bbl.
Gun cloverleafed factory WW .243 ammo at 75 yards.
I only zeroed it for that since the scope was just a 4X.
Fired and never saw a hit outside the black dot, got mad and walked down.....clustered in the center LOL
Bland wood, initially purchased to rebarrel to .35 rem later.
It shot so good I figured it wasn't a donor, sold it.
.243 and a 20" bbl w no real action length..........annoying blast.

A mild mannered .35 rem in that config would be hard to beat.

Alas, I got a fancier #1A in .308 win coming next week.
22" bbl, proly be somewhat annoying.

 

[bummer7]

It was just a curiosity that drove my questions, lgs had a purty Lil rifle with a mannlicher and it got me a wondering

I saw this rifle sitting in the rack in '73 and couldn't resist it. It was love at first sight.

Over the years, it hasn't dissapointed me in accuracy. While it'll never be a tack driver, accuracy has always been decent at under an inch for most bullet weights.

 

[someguy2800]

This is an accuracy vs precision thing. Rifles with full forend contact can and will shoot excellent groups if the contact is consistent. The bigger question is if they will hold zero as temperature and humidity changes.

 

[Hookeye]

Straight grain and sealer helps reportedly
Had Renaissance Wax'd that #1 forend.
It was fine before, and after, so dunno the actual effect.

 

[Dave DeLaurant]

I saw this rifle sitting in the rack in '73 and couldn't resist it. It was love at first sight.
View attachment 1181874
Over the years, it hasn't dissapointed me in accuracy. While it'll never be a tack driver, accuracy has always been decent at under an inch for most bullet weights.

Winchester M70? What chambering?